An Inconsistency Between the Gravitational Time Dilation Equation and the Twin Paradox

[Neddy Bate]

Sissy knows that 1 second has elapsed, because the train traveled to the red mark at a velocity of .866c.

Well, Sissy is too far away from the red mark to actually see what is happening there in real time. She can look with a telescope, but what she sees happening there would be on a 0.866 second delay, due to the light rays requiring that much time to reach her eyes. So that is why it makes more sense to just let her have a clock, and when it elapses one second, she calculates that Bro is arriving at the red mark.

Bro knows that being at the red mark at a velocity of .866c means 1 second has elapsed. But he also knows his clock changed rate compared to a standard second. His clock no longer keeps time accurately.

Bro can't discredit his own clock, because he can use that clock to measure the round-trip speed of light on the train, and it measures c as it should. So he trusts his clock, because he knows the speed of light is a constant.

He can verify this by watching the Earth make 1 lap around the Sun, while he rides the train. His clock will not show 1 year has elapsed while riding the train, but he knows that 1 lap of Earth around the Sun has occurred, and that is 1 year. He throws his clock out the window and calls Sissy to get an accurate time check, which she reveals to him that 1 year has elapsed, which is substantiated by the Earth completing 1 lap around the Sun. Lesson learned for Bro, never trust a clock on a train moving at a velocity of .866c!

Nice try, but the train tracks are not on earth. I forgot to tell you that the tracks themselves are in deep space, moving at a speed of 0.866c away from earth. So that means the earth is also time-dilated according to Sissy. By the time she reaches old age (what her body tells her is about 80 years old), the earth has only gone around the sun 40 times. However, her own clock displays 80 years, so she trusts it more than she trusts the earth years!

 

[Motor Daddy]

Well, Sissy is too far away from the red mark to actually see what is happening there in real time. She can look with a telescope, but what she sees happening there would be on a 0.866 second delay, due to the light rays requiring that much time to reach her eyes. So that is why it makes more sense to just let her have a clock, and when it elapses one second, she calculates that Bro is arriving at the red mark.

Her clock is accurate and can be verified many ways. The only clock that is inaccurate is Bro's clock. His clock does not measure 1 second when 1 second has occurred. His clock is GARBAGE. USELESS! The train being at the red mark at a velocity of .866c means 1 second has elapsed. He knows the distance, because he is the one that measured and marked the red mark on the tracks prior to riding the train.

The distance is fixed.
The velocity is fixed.
Therefore the TIME is FIXED at 1 SECOND to get to the red mark.
His clock is verified at that point to be useless, it does not match the velocity and distance.

Bro can't discredit his own clock, because he can use that clock to measure the round-trip speed of light on the train, and it measures c as it should. So he trusts his clock, because he knows the speed of light is a constant.

Yes he can discredit his own clock, it does not accurately reflect the distance and velocity, doing the math with the time his clock reads. His distance and time don't reflect the velocity of .866c.

The distance is fixed.
The velocity is fixed.
Therefore the TIME is FIXED at 1 SECOND to get to the red mark.
His clock is verified at that point to be useless, it does not match the velocity and distance.

Nice try, but the train tracks are not on earth. I forgot to tell you that the tracks themselves are in deep space, moving at a speed of 0.866c away from earth. So that means the earth is also time-dilated according to Sissy. By the time she reaches old age (what her body tells her is about 80 years old), the earth has only gone around the sun 40 times. However, her own clock displays 80 years, so she trusts it more than she trusts the earth years!

When Sissy says Earth has completed 1 lap around the Sun, that is 1 year. The Earth doesn't make different laps depending on who you ask, it completes a lap and that is 1 year of duration.

If someone far away from Earth doesn't know yet the Earth has completed 1 lap, that is their problem. We have already defined 1 year to be the duration of time Earth takes to complete a complete lap around the Sun. It is not negotiable.
If you want to make your own standard of time, then great. But don't call it a year, that is already spoken for, and that is the duration of time it takes for Earth to complete 1 lap around the Sun!

 

[Neddy Bate]

Her clock is accurate and can be verified many ways.

Here at the top of your post, you say Sissy's clock is accurate even though her clock displays 80 years at the time the earth has completed 40 revolutions around the sun. Then at the bottom you say the time that the sun takes to go around the earth is a year for everyone. You contradict yourself.

The only clock that is inaccurate is Bro's clock. His clock does not measure 1 second when 1 second has occurred. His clock is GARBAGE. USELESS! The train being at the red mark at a velocity of .866c means 1 second has elapsed. He knows the distance, because he is the one that measured and marked the red mark on the tracks prior to riding the train.

The distance is fixed.
The velocity is fixed.
Therefore the TIME is FIXED at 1 SECOND to get to the red mark.
His clock is verified at that point to be useless, it does not match the velocity and distance.

His clock matches his own measurement of time and distance. He measures the distance to be 0.433 lightseconds, and the time to be 0.5 seconds. That is a speed of 0.866 lightseconds per second.

Yes he can discredit his own clock, it does not accurately reflect the distance and velocity, doing the math with the time his clock reads. His distance and time don't reflect the velocity of .866c.

The distance is fixed.
The velocity is fixed.
Therefore the TIME is FIXED at 1 SECOND to get to the red mark.
His clock is verified at that point to be useless, it does not match the velocity and distance.

"Doing the math" Bro calculates a distance of 0.433 lightseconds in a time of 0.5 seconds. Since that speed is 0.866c your whole argument falls apart.

When Sissy says Earth has completed 1 lap around the Sun, that is 1 year. The Earth doesn't make different laps depending on who you ask, it completes a lap and that is 1 year of duration.

If someone far away from Earth doesn't know yet the Earth has completed 1 lap, that is their problem. We have already defined 1 year to be the duration of time Earth takes to complete a complete lap around the Sun. It is not negotiable.
If you want to make your own standard of time, then great. But don't call it a year, that is already spoken for, and that is the duration of time it takes for Earth to complete 1 lap around the Sun!

Considering that your "do the math" argument was already shown incorrect, ask yourself what is it that really makes you think Bro's clock is wrong? I will tell you. It is because you think he is moving absolutely. But what if I told you that not only were the train tracks & Sissy moving away from the sun at 0.866, but that Bro was stationary with respect to the sun, so that when the earth has completed 40 revolutions around the sun, Bro's clock displays 40 years. Now you should be saying that Bro's clock was correct all along, and it was Sissy's clock that was wrong. Which means that, if there is no earth in the scenario, then you can't even tell which clock is wrong!

 

[Motor Daddy]

Here at the top of your post, you say Sissy's clock is accurate even though her clock displays 80 years at the time the earth has completed 40 revolutions around the sun. Then at the bottom you say the time that the sun takes to go around the earth is a year for everyone. You contradict yourself.

Sissy's clock has always read 1 year when the Earth completes 1 lap. Her clock is accurate. If Bro's clock reads different than Sissy's clock, then Bro's clock is inaccurate because it can't read 1 lap for 1 year.
Her clock does not read 80 years for 40 laps, her clock reads 80 years for 80 laps. Bro's clock reads 40 Years for 80 laps.

His clock matches his own measurement of time and distance. He measures the distance to be 0.433 lightseconds, and the time to be 0.5 seconds. That is a speed of 0.866 lightseconds per second.

No it does not. The distance is known to be .866 light seconds, which Sissy's clock verified, and Bro measured on the tracks and marked the line. The distance is .866 light seconds according to Sissy's clock, which is in sync with every other standard clock on Earth, which matches the time it takes for the Earth to complete 1 lap.

"Doing the math" Bro calculates a distance of 0.433 lightseconds in a time of 0.5 seconds. Since that speed is 0.866c your whole argument falls apart.

The distance is not calculated from his flawed watch. He himself took a ruler and measured .866 light seconds and marked the tracks at that distance. Now he says it's only .433 light seconds in order to match his watch that reads .5 seconds to get to the mark at .866c? BS! The distance is .866 light seconds and he knows it, because he is the one that measured and marked it prior to traveling.

Considering that your "do the math" argument was already shown incorrect, ask yourself what is it that really makes you think Bro's clock is wrong? I will tell you. It is because you think he is moving absolutely. But what if I told you that not only were the train tracks & Sissy moving away from the sun at 0.866, but that Bro was stationary with respect to the earth, so that when the earth has completed 40 revolutions around the sun, Bro's clock displays 40 years. Now you should be saying that Bro's clock was correct all along, and it was Sissy's clock that was wrong. Which means that, if there is no earth in the scenario, then you can't even tell which clock is wrong!

Bro's clock does not match the Earth clock. Sissy's clock matches the laps, the train, distance, and .866c for 1 second to travel .866 light seconds of distance on the tracks. Bro's BS about the distance only being .433 light seconds, after he himself marking the tracks at .866 light seconds is a fudge factor only Einstein would approve of. "Oh look, the clock reads .5 seconds to travel .866 light seconds at a velocity of .866c. Let's fix that by changing the distance to .433 light seconds to keep the velocity at .866c." (rolls eyes)

 

[Neddy Bate]

Sissy's clock ... is accurate.

You and I agreed that the measured distance between Sissy and the red mark is 0.866 lightseconds in the reference frame where the tracks are stationary. In that reference frame, it is Sissy's clock that measures 1 second as the time required for Bro to reach the red mark.

You accept that since Bro moves relative to Sissy, SR tells us that Bro's clock measures a different amount of time than Sissy does. You also accept that Bro measures a different distance than Sissy does. You say that means Bro should throw away his measurements, which are garbage.

None of this says anything about the relative velocity of the anything to the sun. Yet you claim that the time it takes for the earth to go around the sun is absolutely one year for everyone.

So then I tell you that it turns out that the tracks are moving at v=0.866c away from the sun, and Bro is stationary with respect to the sun. That means Bro's clock is in synch with the solar year, and Sissy's clock is not.

Please explain how you got that so wrong. Could it be because you assumed the relative motion of the train and the tracks meant that the train was moving relative to the sun? Could it be that you are advocating that the reference frame of the sun is the preferred reference frame?

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[Michael 345]

A clock is not time, it is a measuring device that MEASURES time.

Incorrect

Well ½ incorrect

 

[Motor Daddy]

You also accept that Bro measures a different distance than Sissy does.

NO I DO NOT!

Bro measured and marked the tracks. He knows the distance is .866 light seconds. Sissy agrees that the distance is .866 light seconds.

For Bro to then claim the distance is only .433 light seconds because his watch read .5 seconds to travel the distance, at a velocity of .866c is TOTAL BS!

Bro does not get to arbitrarily change a fixed distance from .866 light seconds to .433 light seconds just because his watch messes up at high velocities.

 

[Neddy Bate]

NO I DO NOT!

Bro measured and marked the tracks. He knows the distance is .866 light seconds. Sissy agrees that the distance is .866 light seconds.

For Bro to then claim the distance is only .433 light seconds because his watch read .5 seconds to travel the distance, at a velocity of .866c is TOTAL BS!

Bro does not get to arbitrarily change a fixed distance from .866 light seconds to .433 light seconds just because his watch messes up at high velocities.

When Bro is stationary with respect to the tracks, he agrees the distance between Sis and red mark is 0.866 lightseconds. But when Bro is on the train, he says that distance is 0.433 lightseconds because of length contraction.

Anyway, you totally missed that the tracks themselves are moving with respect to the sun, and the train is not moving with respect to the sun. So, it is Bro's clock which elapses one year every time the earth goes around the sun, which is what you claim is the universal time for everyone. Yet you claimed Bro should throw his clock reading away because it was garbage. You are lost in this scenario because in all this time you never bothered to learn relativity. You can't argue against relativity by simply refusing to use it.

 

[Motor Daddy]

When Bro is stationary with respect to the tracks, he agrees the distance between Sis and red mark is 0.866 lightseconds. But when Bro is on the train, he says that distance is 0.433 lightseconds because of length contraction.

Distance doesn't change. The distance was MEASURED to be .866 light seconds.

.866 light seconds is not negotiable, it is 259,620,268.628 meter sticks, placed end to end.

Now you want to claim it is only 129,810,134.314 meter sticks???

Do you know how to count? Count the sticks, there are 259,620,268.628 of them, laid end to end, on the tracks, regardless of how long they are. Count them!

Just because Bro travels past them real fast doesn't mean they miraculously change to only 129,810,134.314 of them.

If you travel real fast past 4 apples do they miraculously change to only 2 apples?? You seem to believe that!

 

[Motor Daddy]

Gotta shut down now for a bit, a storm is brewing and lightening is coming upon me.

 

[Neddy Bate]

Distance doesn't change. The distance was MEASURED to be .866 light seconds.

.866 light seconds is not negotiable, it is 259,620,268.628 meter sticks, placed end to end.

Now you want to claim it is only 129,810,134.314 meter sticks???

Do you know how to count? Count the sticks, there are 259,620,268.628 of them, laid end to end, on the tracks, regardless of how long they are. Count them!

Just because Bro travels past them real fast doesn't mean they miraculously change to only 129,810,134.314 of them.

If you travel real fast past 4 apples do they miraculously change to only 2 apples?? You seem to believe that!

The same number of meter sticks will still fit between Sissy and the red mark, but they are all length-contracted according to the train travelers.

 

[Motor Daddy]

The same number of meter sticks will still fit between Sissy and the red mark, but they are all length-contracted according to the train travelers.

The sticks are clearly marked "Meter Stick", and there are 259,620,268.628 of them. So Bro has no business claiming there are only 129,810,134.314 of them.

They are not length contracted! Are 4 apples length contracted to 2 apples if you travel at .866c past them?

You are under Einstein's spell. Back away from the BS, Neddy! Einstein's Fudge Factor is at work here, and you're defending it. You are defending the notion that 4 apples suddenly turn into 2 apples because you travel .866c past them! Seriously, and you believe it!

Einstein created Fudge to keep the speed of light constant, which is total BS! The measured speed of light is different in every direction in MD's Box, which PROVES Einstein is FOS!

The ONLY frame in which the speed of light is constant is the absolute zero velocity frame (space). The preferred frame! Every other frame the speed of light is different due to the frame's velocity in space. See MD's Box, and understand what is being shown!

https://imgur.com/VE5Es57

 

[Neddy Bate]

The sticks are clearly marked "Meter Stick", and there are 259,620,268.628 of them. So Bro has no business claiming there are only 129,810,134.314 of them.

They are not length contracted! Are 4 apples length contracted to 2 apples if you travel at .866c past them?

You are under Einstein's spell. Back away from the BS, Neddy! Einstein's Fudge Factor is at work here, and you're defending it. You are defending the notion that 4 apples suddenly turn into 2 apples because you travel .866c past them! Seriously, and you believe it!

Einstein created Fudge to keep the speed of light constant, which is total BS! The measured speed of light is different in every direction in MD's Box, which PROVES Einstein is FOS!

The ONLY frame in which the speed of light is constant is the absolute zero velocity frame (space). The preferred frame! Every other frame the speed of light is different due to the frame's velocity in space. See MD's Box, and understand what is being shown!

https://imgur.com/VE5Es57

Okay, fine. Just let us know when you measure the speed of light, and find it to be something other than 299,792,458 m/s. Seems simple enough. Funny how no one has ever been able to do that though. Maybe the earth just happens to have an absolute speed of zero at all times!

 

[Motor Daddy]

Okay, fine. Just let us know when you measure the speed of light, and find it to be something other than 299,792,458 m/s. Seems simple enough. Funny how no one has ever been able to do that though. Maybe the earth just happens to have an absolute speed of zero at all times!

Click the imgur link I just posted, and the details are ALL there! Find a mistake if you can! You'll be the first person to ever find an error, whether conceptually, theoretically, or mathematically. Go ahead Neddy, find an error and post it for all to see!

https://imgur.com/VE5Es57

The speed of light is DEFINED by the definition of the meter. Period!

Traveling 259,620,268.628 meter sticks at the velocity of .866c takes EXACTLY 1 second. That is set in stone!

 

[Neddy Bate]

Click the imgur link I just posted, and the details are ALL there! Find a mistake if you can! You'll be the first person to ever find an error, whether conceptually, theoretically, or mathematically. Go ahead Neddy, find an error and post it for all to see!

https://imgur.com/VE5Es57

The speed of light is DEFINED by the definition of the meter. Period!

Traveling 259,620,268.628 meter sticks at the velocity of .866c takes EXACTLY 1 second. That is set in stone!

So, if you are holding a meter stick, how much time does it take for light to travel from one end to the other?

 

[Motor Daddy]

So, if you are holding a meter stick, how long does it take for light to travel from one end to the other?

If I am in space at an absolute zero velocity then it takes exactly 1/299,792,458 of a second for light to travel from one end of the stick to the other.

If I am holding the stick and my velocity is something other than an absolute zero velocity then it takes a different amount of time for light to traverse the stick, because light travels independently of the stick. Light speed is 299,792,458 m/s in SPACE, independent of the stick.

 

[Neddy Bate]

If I am in space at an absolute zero velocity then it takes exactly 1/299,792,458 of a second for light to travel from one end of the stick to the other.

If I am holding the stick and my velocity is something other than an absolute zero velocity then it takes a different amount of time for light to traverse the stick, because light travels independently of the stick. Light speed is 299,792,458 m/s in SPACE, independent of the stick.

Oh. So the definition of the meter says that it would take exactly 1/299,792,458 of a second for light to travel from one end of the stick to the other IF AND ONLY IF THE METER STICK IS AT ABSOLUTE ZERO VELOCITY. I did not realize that.

 

[Motor Daddy]

Oh. So the definition of the meter says that it would take exactly 1/299,792,458 of a second for light to travel from one end of the stick to the other IF AND ONLY IF THE METER STICK IS AT ABSOLUTE ZERO VELOCITY. I did not realize that.

Take a meter stick, bring it to an absolute zero velocity in space and see how much time it takes.

Now travel real fast past the stick while performing the same test, but with your crazy watch that reads 1/599,584,916 of a second. You travel .866c, observe the light travel the stick, and your watch claims only 1/599,584,916 of a second has elapsed.

BY DEFINITION, when light traverses that stick it is 1/299,792,458 of a second that has elapsed, not 1/599,584,916 of a second. YOUR WATCH IS WRONG, because it changed rate and does not agree with the definition of a meter. Period!

 

[Neddy Bate]

Take a meter stick, bring it to an absolute zero velocity in space and see how much time it takes.

Now travel real fast past the stick while performing the same test, but with your crazy watch that reads 1/599,584,916 of a second. You travel .866c, observe the light travel the stick, and your watch claims only 1/599,584,916 of a second has elapsed.

BY DEFINITION, when light traverses that stick it is 1/299,792,458 of a second that has elapsed, not 1/599,584,916 of a second. YOUR WATCH IS WRONG, because it changed rate and does not agree with the definition of a meter. Period!

Good to know. So what is the absolute speed of the earth right now?

 

[Motor Daddy]

Good to know. So what is the absolute speed of the earth right now?

The Earth is not moving in a straight line. The RPM of the Earth is 1 revolution per day! The Earth completes 1 lap around the Sun, and light travels 299,792,458 x 60 x 60 x 24 x 365.25 meters in that duration of time.