Are we purely material beings or do we have souls?

[Jan Ardena]

Minds are clearly associated with bodies. We never find minds separate from bodies. When a body dies, there is no longer evidence of the mind (consciousness).

Circular argument. You are assuming the mind is a part of the brain.
Can you show that the mind is part of the brain?

Occam's razor suggests that the former explanation is the one we should prefer, unless there is evidence to support the other explanation.

What makes you think so?
Without assuming the thing you’re trying to prove.

Beliefs, as you know, can be wrong, even if they are held by millions of people.

So can assumptions.

By what process does your soul connect to your body?

It could be the other way round.
By what process does the body attach itself to the soul.

I'd call that positive evidence, wouldn't you?

For what?

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Circular argument. You are assuming the mind is a part of the brain.
Can you show that the mind is part of the brain?

What makes you think so?
Without assuming the thing you’re trying to prove.

So can assumptions.

It could be the other way round.
By what process does the body attach itself to the soul.

For what?

That's more like it Jan but you still seem a little flat I expect the virus and the altered conditions can get to one.

Alex

 

[(Q)]

Circular argument. You are assuming the mind is a part of the brain.
Can you show that the mind is part of the brain?

It's more along the lines of the mind being the processes of the brain, such as consciousness, imagination, perception, thinking, judgement, language and memory.

 

[paddoboy]

What evidence is that?

The evidence, and logic that is available if you are silly enough to doubt it....plus of course the mythical ancient fairy tale concept of a soul that religious fanatics would substitute instead.

 

[James R]

The thread asks if we are purely material beings, or, do we have souls (meaning non material). If we “have”souls, then we are purely material beings with souls, and your question becomes impossible to answer effectively.
My assertion was a correction of the question.

I don’t have to believe it. I would have to believe otherwise. I would have to think up explanations as to why I believed it. As it stands I know I am separate to anything I own, or regard as belonging to me.

Not very helpful, Jan.

I take it that you assume that you are an immaterial soul that has temporary control of a material body. You claim you know this. But how? Why do you believe this is true?

Your attempt to wriggle out of saying why you believe this by relying on a form of words doesn't work. I explained why in a lengthy post in a different thread, as you know, but here's the explanation again.

If you say "I own my arm", that doesn't show that your arm is owned by a disembodied soul. It only shows that you believe that there is a concept that you label "I" that seems to have control of the arm, most of the time. Since nobody else controls the arm, you say you own it. If you were French, you'd never refer to "my arm", though; you'd just refer to it as "the arm", so your choice of this form of words is largely an accident related to the language you speak.

Moreover, if the "I" you refer to is actually nothing more than the material body and brain, then this is what is asserting "ownership" of the arm.

You will argue, again, that you refer to "my body" in its entirety ("I own my body"), as if that is supposed to somehow prove that the "I" is independent of the body. The problem is, you're begging the question with that.

If you start by assuming that "I" is an immaterial immortal soul, then you are faced with explaining its relationship to the body. You settle on ownership as the appropriate relationship. But see what you did there? Your whole argument is predicated on there being a soul. On the other hand, if you were to start by assuming that "I" is nothing other than the body's image of itself as a whole, then you'd realise that referring to "my body" is only a form of words, and a somewhat confused and obfuscatory one at that. You'd also appreciate that the particular form of words is really just an accident of the language you speak.

So, I ask you again: why do you believe you have/are a soul? It can't be just that you happen to be an English speaker.

 

[James R]

Circular argument. You are assuming the mind is a part of the brain.

No. I'm asking you why you believe you have/are a soul.

Can you show that the mind is part of the brain?

How is that relevant to why you believe you are a soul?

What makes you think so?

My understanding of Occam's razor. (Strange question.)

It could be the other way round.
By what process does the body attach itself to the soul.

Whatever. Okay then: by what process does the body attach itself to the soul?

 

[Michael 345]

If you say "I own my arm"

You do know you are going up against a unarmed person yes?

 

[Michael 345]

Whatever. Okay then: by what process does the body attach itself to the soul?

Oh that's a twist. There are souls out there bodyless

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Oh that's a twist. There are souls out there bodyless

There is this guy down at the markets buys and sell them..souls that is...he looks odd horns and a tail but a hard worker.
Alex

 

[Michael 345]

There is this guy down at the markets buys and sell them..souls that is...he looks odd horns and a tail but a hard worker.
Alex

I remember him

Got bad case sunburn, bright red all over

Stall right next to the bloke selling accessory Ar's to match the soles

 

[Michael 345]

Does anyone recognise this genuine unretouched photo of the soul (the one in the middle)?



Google soul

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

View attachment 3276
Does anyone recognise this genuine unretouched photo of the soul (the one in the middle)?



Google soul

We all have a soul...an R soul that is.

Some folk must have terrible lives that they are so desperate that they need these spiritual crutches.

I think it is some form of mental illness this inability to be rational and realistic.

I was driving around today looking at the plains and mountains, the trees and just the real world and could not help but think about the Jans of this world who just don't get it.

And tonight I was trying to take some star fields and again I though if only these delusional folk sat under the stars and contemplated what is out there they could only realise they are deluded.

It was so nice just sitting in the observatory with the camera running and just looking up wondering who may be looking back.

I guess these theists would rule out the possibility of life in the rest of the universe.

As someone said if we are it there is a great waste of space ( meaning all the stuff in space).

But it seems Jan has lost his sting ..too many crushings I guess.. but I suspect it is finally dawning on him he has been conned.

He must look at us and realise we don't have to lie to justify our position ... there must be times where he realises that his lieing means he has backed the wrong horse and he must be kicking himself for giving the cult so much money.

If you are part of the flock you are going to get sheared.

You will notice he will not engage me anymore because he knows he can't win. He likes discussion but his lies makes it impossible to discuss things with him and irritating really.

Thats why I put the boot it..I can't stand folk who lie.

I know James sets a good example of polite discussion but I can't do that when I know someone lies...you know how it goes in our culture ..no one has anything to do with someone once they have been exposed for lieing they are never trusted again.

Still is OS no doubt.

Keep well.

Alex

 

[paddoboy]

"I think the universe was spontaneously created out of nothing, according to the laws of science," Hawking, who died in March, wrote. "If you accept, as I do, that the laws of nature are fixed, then it doesn't take long to ask:
What role is there for God?"
Stephen Hawking:
Or any mythical soul for that matter......

 

[Jan Ardena]

"I think the universe was spontaneously created out of nothing, according to the laws of science," Hawking, who died in March, wrote. "If you accept, as I do, that the laws of nature are fixed, then it doesn't take long to ask:
What role is there for God?"
Stephen Hawking:

“Nothing” becomes the transcendental origin of everything.
“Nothing” becomes God without the title.
Explicit atheists spend the rest of their atheist life, trying to run from that logic.

 

[paddoboy]

“Nothing” becomes the transcendental origin of everything.
“Nothing” becomes God without the title.

So what did this creature/s you call god/s do before he summoned his magic to create the universe?

Explicit atheists spend the rest of their atheist life, trying to run from that logic.

With all your pretentious, rather nervous laughter, I wonder how you actually have the nerve to get out of bed of a morning, with all these evil Atheists out to destroy your myth.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

I have spent some time looking on the net to see if there is any reasonable evidence for a "soul" and conclude there in none.

The concept of a soul is no more than wishful thinking it seems and just another part of the god puzzle.

It is reasonable to conclude that there is no such thing as a soul and the unsupported claims as to the existence of a soul appear but one aspect of the delusion that a human can die yet somehow their mind can continue to live without the input of energy via food drink and air.

It becomes obvious and indeed tiresome that when a theist is asked about the soul that in no part of their answer do we find a pointer to evidence that could in some small way offer some support for the primitive notion that a soul is part of the make up of a human being.

Threads like this are fun to expose the delusionary reality that a theist inhabits but like all threads in the religious section it become very plain to even the most casual observer that theists can not provide evidence for things that simply do not exist.

Moreover threads like these give the observer opportunity to witness the evasive behaviour of the participating theists and often how they think nothing of employing detectable lies presumably due to their frustration that there is nothing true within their delusional beliefs that are anything more than invented fantasy.

It becomes so much easier with Jan sulking with me, presumably because he pulled a ban for trolling as a result of me calling his bluff and reporting him, to objectively comment on the various delusions that are exposed in the religious forum, such that one is less frustrated by the lies and evasive behaviour...and I suppose the peace gives me time to enjoy my decisive victory over Jan and his trolling behaviour and certainly extreme satisfaction that truth is rarely stifled by incompetent theists.

Knowing he reads this but his sooking prevents his reply is so satisfying...maybe he doesn't and has me on his ignore which would be more satisfying to know my victory was so solid.

So it seems there is no soul unless someone can show otherwise.

Alex

 

[Jan Ardena]

So what did this creature/s you call god/s do before he summoned his magic to create the universe?

What “magic” are you talking about?

With all your pretentious, rather nervous laughter,

You wish.

I wonder how you actually have the nerve to get out of bed of a morning, with all these evil Atheists out to destroy your myth.

Now that’s interesting!
This man acknowledges himself as evil.
I wouldn’t have described you as evil.
Wilfully ignorant? Yes.
Atheists, ultimately believe in nothing.
Atheists can only destroy their own delusions.
You can’t even bring yourself to have a civil discussion. Why? Because you’re afraid.
Your structure is weak, pitiful, and without substance.

 

[paddoboy]

You can’t even bring yourself to have a civil discussion. Why? .

I'm pretty busy at this time discussing science, but to answer your fool question......because you are a recognised liar....because you insideously change definitions of words to suit your agenda...your general dishonesty and appraisal...your ignorance and stupidity in ignoring facts....is that enough?
And those thoughts are not just mine....

 

[Jan Ardena]

is that enough?

No!
I crave more.
Gimme more I tells ya!

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

Jan wants another severe crushing..give him another Paddo.
Alex