Atheist don't contribute?

[superstring01]

More Jews writing the list?



How are you measuring that? Over what period? What counts as "giving to the world"?

This topic is so vague as to be useless.



Examples?

I wanna' say "duh" to his statements. Atheism, is a fairly new human development, and any atheists who existed before surely kept it secret.

~String

 

[iceaura]

Atheism, is a fairly new human development, and any atheists who existed before surely kept it secret.

Not to be silly.

What are you going to call all those people without deities, then? The animists, shamanists, ancestor worshippers, sacred mountain devotees, mystics and meditators and hard core mysticism eschewers? The anthropologists have already made enough enemies, telling people what their 'gods" were and so forth, and within theistic cultures well known disbelievers have always existed - to the point that even the occasional pogroms against them in the threatening Abrahamic tradition have never lacked for targets.

 

[superstring01]

Not to be silly.

What are you going to call all those people without deities, then? The animists, shamanists, ancestor worshippers, sacred mountain devotees, mystics and hard core mysticism eschewers? The anthropologists have already made enough enemies, telling people what their 'gods" were and so forth, and within theistic cultures well known disbelievers have always existed - to the point that even the occasional pogroms against them in the threatening Abrahamic tradition have never lacked for targets.

Do you count them as atheists? I don't. Atheism, IMHO, excludes ancestor worshipers (beats ancestor fuckers; take that West Virginia!), shamnists, animists, wiccans, etc. I mean, people who believe in a real, touchable, scientific universe.

~String

 

[S.A.M.]

No, just a lot of stuff about translation of old Chinese (an interest in Taoist philosophy) and conversations with a couple of friends who are professional Chinese historians.

You seem to have overlooked some of the religious aspects of Western cultural imperialism, in your diatribes against the arrogance and obliviousness of Western ways.

I haven't actually read anything western on Confucius. I'm referring to the Indian views. And what is now known about Shang Ti and Chinese religion in the Shang dynasty. Also much of what Confucius writes is very similar to Indian writings of the time on God [see Brahman].

I would like to see some sources from Chinese historians on Confucius and religion, it would be interesting to see how communist China interprets other religions as well.

 

[iceaura]

Do you count them as atheists? I don't. Atheism, IMHO, excludes ancestor worshipers (beats ancestor fuckers; take that West Virginia!), shamnists, animists, wiccans, etc

I count some of them as atheists.

I mean, people who believe in a real, touchable, scientific universe.

Like one with magnetism and photons?

Perhaps we can agree, at least, that people who believe in some kind of animate, spiritual, essential nature of a tree or a spring, believe in it as part of their world, as a limited and location specific property of the ordinary universe, do not seem to have the same kind of "deity" as Moses did. They seem to have deities the way we have germs, or entropy, or ecological patterns and relationships, or Platonic ideals, or elves.

We do need a concept of "deity" that excludes pixies, yes? And water sprites or spring spirits? And ghosts - even of ancestors?

I haven't actually read anything western on Confucius. I'm referring to the Indian views.

You seem to be referring to the Muslim views, which are Abrahamic - that is, Western, in this context and typically.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Sam is correct Confucius was a theist but he is famous for his philosophical social ideals. In the Confucian social structure the emperor was directly beneath god in the heavens and it was everyones duty to respect those who were above their station ie quite loosely son to father, father to local ruler, local ruler to emperor, emperor to heaven. Everyone in society had fixed positions and a rigid etiquette in which they dealt with one another.

He wasn't what we would refer to as an 'atheist' nor 'agnostic'.

 

[superstring01]

Like one with magnetism and photons?

Leave your crazy ideas out of this discussion!

Perhaps we can agree, at least, that people who believe in some kind of animate, spiritual, essential nature of a tree or a spring, believe in it as part of their world, as a limited and location specific property of the ordinary universe, do not seem to have the same kind of "deity" as Moses did. They seem to have deities the way we have germs, or entropy, or ecological patterns and relationships, or Platonic ideals, or elves.

Only for the purpose of identifying which padded room they should go into.

But really, I see your point. Though, I tend to identify the belief in a metaphysical universe & supernatural beings as religious and therefore totally incompatible with the term "atheist". That's just me.

We do need a concept of "deity" that excludes pixies, yes? And water sprites or spring spirits? And ghosts - even of ancestors?

As a person who, on the most basic level, respects everybody, I will endeavor to give respect to even those who believe in pixies and wood-sprites. But, that come close to crossing the line into ridiculousness and pushes the limits of my tolerance for human differences.* I call most of the people who believe in that stuff "children", it seems an apt description for the rest.

~String

____________________________________
*My exception is for isolated tribes in various forests like
the Amazon or New Guinea.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

I tend to identify the belief in a metaphysical universe & supernatural beings as religious and therefore totally incompatible with the term "atheist". That's just me.[/FONT]

Not just you.

 

[superstring01]

Not just you.

Okay. Not just me, but not everybody agrees with that assessment either.

I have a lady at work who's a Christian (and the "god love everybody" type, so she's cool, but she's SERIOUS about her faith). She talks about ghosts, demons, spirits and whatnot. I listen quietly. My job is to do that a lot, but even still, she's cool and it would be rude for me to say, "Uh, no. Those things don't exist." But on occasion she'll say, "O have you ever seen a ghost. . . ?" or somesuch and I'll open the flood gates a bit: "Iris, there are no such things as ghosts, demons, heaven, hell, god, the devil, or any other imaginary creature. Why is it that the only tales of these things are hazy at best. Why, after billions of people have roamed the planet is there not a single, reliable, verifiable account of ghosts and other such things? No, sorry, I believe in a real, natural universe without need to explain its ambiguities with supernatural fiction."

~String

 

[Bishadi]

I haven't actually read anything western on Confucius. I'm referring to the Indian views. And what is now known about Shang Ti and Chinese religion in the Shang dynasty. Also much of what Confucius writes is very similar to Indian writings of the time on God [see Brahman].

He lived in the East.

What do you tink he was reading as his educational material?

i am of the west and read lots of religious stuff, don't mean i take up beliefs while i prefer to observe what was said rather than believe religious folks

for example:

Matt 16:20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

i have no problem with the wisdom of the literature, do you?

i have no problem with observing what makes quality sense, do you?

I would like to see some sources from Chinese historians on Confucius and religion, it would be interesting to see how communist China interprets other religions as well.

you labeled the population of china based on what? A western identification........ how about trying to read on what chinese think of china before posting your labels (bigot). How about read up and find the whole of china is based on the confucinism? (ie..their politicians do wrong, they hang themselves.....the US folks are OK with giving nixon a reprieve.. (the difference is personal responsibility)

ever read up on wisdom?

Never impose on others what you would not choose for yourself.

or is it matt 7:12 i tink

who knows, that wisdom could have been originated in Egypt, and most anyone with literary comprehension must know they basically the founding FATHER of the WHOLE abrahamic branches of religion (torah)

who knows for sure, when some folk just can't face up with reality and then label others, make up their beliefs and even create GOD's of men....(and in your words; just like the "communists" of theologies)

 

[Bishadi]

Sam is correct Confucius was a theist but he is famous for his philosophical social ideals.

Personal responsibility; not homage

Jesus was not a homage guy either...........

Mark 10:17 And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?

18 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

19 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.

not a submission claim in the whole set of 'commands'............(the injil) It means; BE RESPONSIBLE

is there a problem with that too?

In the Confucian social structure the emperor was directly beneath god in the heavens and it was everyones duty to respect those who were above their station ie quite loosely son to father, father to local ruler, local ruler to emperor, emperor to heaven. Everyone in society had fixed positions and a rigid etiquette in which they dealt with one another.

He wasn't what we would refer to as an 'atheist' nor 'agnostic'.

notice what you did, you used the ideology as what is believed versus use what Confucius 'said'

just as i offered what Jesus (per se) said versus the beliefs.

Was Jesus an atheist, like god too?

 

[spidergoat]

The idea that whoever contributes is better is exactly how religion tries to claim superiority. They do good deeds and think that justifies their theology. This is a misunderstanding. I don't care how many people you feed or what you contribute to society, that has no bearing on whether your teaching is valid or not.

 

[Bishadi]

The idea that whoever contributes is better is exactly how religion tries to claim superiority.

is that the "give mo money, get a better seat' idea?

that be scary and quite the interesting analogy you put together, it makes sense, if causal comprehension to the sales pitch and reality are misunderstood

They do good deeds and think that justifies their theology.

i guess, if you know what they 'think' then you got me beat

This is a misunderstanding. I don't care how many people you feed or what you contribute to society, that has no bearing on whether your teaching is valid or not.

but false 'teachings' can also enable life; why do you think they still exist?

kind of like dinosaurs, lived for a long long time, but they did not evolve; the environment changed and they could not survive; but still within the tree of life, just the same

 

[swarm]

The teachings you are discussing must be your own.

 

[Bishadi]

The teachings you are discussing must be your own.

nothing i share is MINE

as with the internet, anyone can seek reality

from the sciences to the opinions..............


what you are reading is from the COMBINATION of natures truths with beliefs and opinions

when i make a wrong claim, please post it

but if it makes sense to you within and without the needs of beliefs; then you know the truth too


reality only works ONE way

but if you want to know, if it is grounded to the last word, then YES, i be the one

 

[iceaura]

belief in a metaphysical universe & supernatural beings as religious and therefore totally incompatible with the term "atheist".

The notion that all believers in ghosts are religious and therefore theists seems in need of some fairly strong argument - a correlation is visible in Abrahamic religion dominated cultures, but absent that?