Bad Logic

kmguru

kmguru

Staff member
Several years ago, I was in Midland, Texas. A wonderful place and I enjoyed my stay. One Staurday morning, I got a knock on the door. When I opened it, I was greeted with this sentence by an elderly couple: "God forbid, but if you die today, do you think you will go to heaven?"

My immidiate answer was an emphatic "YES"
There was a long (very long) silence, because they did not expect such a reply.

Later on I found out they belong to the Jehovah's witness program (Whatever that means). And people pay a lot of money to answer this question.

First forward to Phoenix, Arizona. Two beautiful, young Mormon girls showed up at our door steps. They wanted to prove that "The Book of Mormon" is the true book inspired by God directly. So, OK, how do we do that? They had the answer:

Take the book in your hand. Just before you go to bed, pray to God and ask him if the book is true word of God. He will answer that: IT IS.

Now, logically, let us examine 3 outcomes
1. You did not see God in the dream: Then try everytime until you do...
2. You saw God, he told you the book is false, then the interpretation is that you saw Devil in disguise. You try again...
3. God came to you and said: IT is. Then you become Mormon.

I told them, I will do that - only if they will do the same with my book say a "Gita" or Asimov's "Foundation". Needless to say, they were not interested.
 
Oh dear

Ive been confronted by many Jehovah witnesses and they have been quite friendly and not so direct.

They are very nice people to converse with..

Id be scared if they acted that way with me...:eek:
 
Oh dear

Ive been confronted by many Jehovah witnesses and they have been quite friendly and not so direct.

They are very nice people to converse with..

Id be scared if they acted that way with me...

Yet there is something I do not understand.

About 2 years ago I had this friend who was a Jehovah witness. She had never told me till later. But it seems they are not suppose to hangout or I guess youd say associate with others who are not of their religion. I found this out when I had invited my friend to my birthday party and she told me she couldnt come for these reasons.

Is this really true??!!
:confused:
 
Actually they just can't celebrate anything... I guess they feel that living each day in the love of Jesus is much better than celebrating trivialties. It's almost a betrayal in their view to celebrate something useless when they could be celebrating Jesus each day. A holiday is one more day away from Jesus.

Sounds strange, but it's really quite admirable...to have that much devotion and have it not twist you; have it fill you with love.

Although when they come knocking at the door it's a totally different story.
 
So far I think I must have "Convert me" tatooed on my forehead, about four years ago I opened my door to elderly Ladies that were Jehovah's witnesses, They thrust a pamphlet in my hand and asked a question "could you live in a place like this for eternity?".

they pointed at the depiction on the front, a family in an opening in a jungle, petting tigers, near a stream. The picture was made as Aesthetical as possible.

They were trying to express their view of what religious types call "heaven", but my answer to them was "No".

They asked "why could you not live here, everything would be perfect, you wouldn't have any worries or cares?"

I exclaimed "...such perfectionism on a day to day basis would become monotonous and in effect cancel out the positive effects. A bit like having a birthday every day, you might at first be happy at being swamped in presents, but eventually you have to look at having your family surrounding you all the time and not giving you any peace and quite, and the whole present thing would seriously get boring when you start getting duplicate gifts."

I then asked "Why doesn't the bible have dinosaurs mentioned in it?"

They were baffled and I countinued to point out things that I wanted to see how they would answer
"Adam and Eve: if they populated a whole planet, wouldn't the human race have died out through imbreeding?"

this brought up a mixed reaction, they continued to try and answer such confounding questions and eventually went away, never to bang on my door again :D

Two years ago, I was approached in a street by Two mormons from One of The states in America (This was Odd since I'm in England, so I thought they must have ran out of conscripts)

They too asked if I wanted to talk to them about their beliefs... I replied.. "Sorry, I'm late for my bus" ;)

Only a couple of months ago I was walking through Watford in the western outskirts of London, And I was approach by a Hari Krishna who began trying to speak about his books (perhaps I should have looked) but I replied to him as I was on the move, I have my own books right here (And I clutched my bag with William Gibsons "All Tomorrows Parties" in the bottom, and a Debian book.)


Oh and more recently... Tony1's tried :D


Who on earth is to try next???? To convert me... the unconvertable??? (Might not be on earth hehe)
 
...to have that much devotion and have it not twist you; have it fill you with love.
Click to expand...

Just a little observation...do not mean to offend anyone...Became very close to a few Jehovah people many years ago....Add Jehovah and Valium from the doctor, it will fill you with all the love you can handle....

When massive change occurs in a society, the stress level goes up sky high...it is a fight or flight response. Some groups provide a mental enclosure to feel safe...to some the alternative is not pleasant...
 
There are a few religions out there that you have to be born in - can not be converted. So, your tatoo will not work there. But rest...there are atleast 1200 groups that are ready to convert including 750 in mainstream Christianity. If you are a lonely guy, imagine how much fun you will have.

Just recently, we were visited by high priests from a local church. Unfortunately, they asked what I believe in. When I said Eastern Philosophy, they stayed speechless for a minute and then invited us to their church. Among basic chit chat, I was told that, a person joins church to be sociable, make new friends etc. So, I thought to myself, as soon as I need a new friend beyond my regular ones in person and in sciforum, I will run for the church....

Nothing wrong with that....
 
*Originally posted by Stryderunknown
Oh and more recently... Tony1's tried *

I have?

*Who on earth is to try next???? To convert me... the unconvertable??? (Might not be on earth hehe) *

hehe
Everyone is convertible.

It might only be into a rotting corpse or a pile of ashes.

*Originally posted by kmguru
Add Jehovah and Valium from the doctor, it will fill you with all the love you can handle.... *

You don't even need the Valium if you go for Hinduism, Buddhism, ISKCON, TM, etc.
Of course, it isn't love you'll be filled with, but a peculiar stunned confusion, sort of like being hit in the head real hard.

*I was told that, a person joins church to be sociable, make new friends etc.*

They were already influenced heavily by eastern philosophy, hence the inane irrelevance.
 
Of course, it isn't love you'll be filled with, but a peculiar stunned confusion, sort of like being hit in the head real hard.
Click to expand...

Now the truth comes out. Put some icepacks on the head O tony1...
 
sorry, I couldn't resist saying it

After all, that's just a problem of self-honesty...
We should remember how religion was one of the main factors that destroyed the development of the old Greek Philosophy and Science.
 
I can convert you, Stryder!

And you know it! Soon you will find yourself turning to Sweden, praying to the goddess every day, wearing a pinkish furry hat...you are already wearing the hat....:D

Religion is a more organized form of different philosphies. It´s when those who wish to maintain or gain power over others that they create religions out of philosophy and involves the state in the process, that the whole idea of philosophy gets lost.

But the original thoughts are practically the same.
But we have yet to see a religion based on materialism, or have I just missed it? :p Is it called money?

 
money are no religion

...or shouldn't be.

Money are of course needful but there's a huge difference between earning some money to buy yourself a new car and making them the ultimate sense of life.

Besides, money don't match the basic aim of religions: they don't encourage ethics, morality etc.
 
Some people do that!

I have met far too many who actually sees money as religion, not consciously though, but in practical life they act as if it was the most important thing in the world. All their ethics and moral evolve around money,gaining money is a life purpose for them, they think.

Physical science can aslo be called a materialistic religion.
Just replace the word in the above statement and there you have it. :D
 
Um, easy, no-brainer.

"Knock, knock."

<door opens>

"Yes?"

"Good day, to you. Are you saved?"

Do you realize that, according to JW teachings, only 144,000 believers will be admitted into Heaven? Are you aware that already there are more than 144K of you?

So, where's the attraction for me in all the things you're about to tell me?

Oh, and, what's you number?

:D
 
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Religion has brought the most wars which are going on on Earth right now.

And money you can say is for certain humans as bad a religion as Tony is christian.

Humans adore money, listen to the radio. You can win a million there once in a while.

And what about the tv preachers, they make a whole lot of money and they love it more then their so called beloved god...
All humans who fall for those guy's are paying a lot and the tv preachers have a good laugh and all the material luxury they need.

So money is in that way for humans certainly a kind of religion.

Money, so they say, is the root of all evil today....Pink Floyd.
:)

Religion and money so they say, are the root of all evil today...Banshee.:p
 
Just a couple of observations.

1. Money isn’t a problem. You can have as much as you like. But, it is the LOVE of money that becomes the root of great evil.

2. The word materialism has two very different definitions, which are often confused. (1) Greed and possessiveness. (2) The philosophy that everything is physical (material), i.e. Spirits and souls do not exist.

Cris
 
As for JWs and Mormons.

I do enjoy it when they knock on my door. I always invite them in or if it isn’t convenient I make an appointment and have them come back at a better time.

I have visited Kingdom Halls and participated in their services. And I have attended Mormon services as well.

I now have several copies of the book of mormon, mainly because they insist on giving me a new copy and I can never find my last copy when they call.

I love the story of how Mormonism started. The sheer audacity of a con-man to have created a religion is an enormous credit to the ingenuity of the human mind. It is also incredibly sad that so many people can be so gullible. I love the part of the golden tablets that of course vanish leaving absolutely no evidence of his claims.

JWs are really a very sad group. I found their refusal to accept blood transfusions quite disturbing.

Early last year I investigated the Church of Scientology and participated in some of their sessions and courses. A really dedicated group of people but who use some very frightening and dangerous mental practices. Don’t go there unless your eyes are really wide open or you are very wealthy.

I have yet to look into the Christian Scientists. At this time I just can’t get past the conclusion that their name is an oxymoron. Science is based on reason; Christianity is based on faith. These are opposite concepts. One cannot be a Christian and a Scientist at the same instant.

Spiritualism is something I had planned to investigate earlier this year (2001) but became sidetracked with other issues at work. I’ll try again next year.

Have fun.
Cris
 
Cris, you give good replies and you know a lot really.

The JW's who come at my door I always send away, for I think it is ridiculous they go by at every door with often a very young kid being with them.
All dressed up in a black suite, with a necktie and all, ridiculous.

They come at your house even at Sundays and the look in those childrens eyes is never happy, you ever noticed that?:(

I think it is sad to treat your children that way, for they are forced in living the exact same way as their parents do. And if they get sick and need blood, it may not happen, so these JW's say, because it is the will of their almighty beloved god. I think that is really sad.

I know very well there are christians who act in a normal way, for I have a close friend who is christian and she goes to church 2 times every Sunday. Never ever do we have problems. We have good discussions and a lot of good laughs to.
She plays the same Music as I do and is a teacher at a very christian school with very strong rules what religion concerns.
But man, do we know eachother for a long time now and we really don't have problems here.....

So you see, it is possible to live with eachother.
Be a little more open minded for other humans feelings and way of living and respect eachother. For everybody tries to find his/her own way to live his/her life here on Earth.

And even the fanatic christians can try to pay a little more respect to other humans who feel a different way of living their lifes...

Good for you Cris, you have been to so many places to look for yourself.:)
 
*Originally posted by kmguru
Now the truth comes out. Put some icepacks on the head O tony1... *

No need.
I've never really gotten into TM.

*Originally posted by Twilight
We should remember how religion was one of the main factors that destroyed the development of the old Greek Philosophy and Science.*

That's only because Greek Philosophy and Science was so unbelievably superstitious.

*Originally posted by Bebelina
Physical science can aslo be called a materialistic religion.*

You're stepping on toes there, Beb.
The theory of evolution is one of the primary tenets of that religion.

*Originally posted by Cris
it is the LOVE of money that becomes the root of great evil. *

I'm surprised to see you quoting the Bible.

For the love of money is the root of all evil...
(1 Timothy 6:10, KJV).

*Science is based on reason*

It is based on speculation.

---sci·ence n.

1.
a. The observation, identification, description, experimental investigation, and theoretical explanation of phenomena.
b. Such activities restricted to a class of natural phenomena.
c. Such activities applied to an object of inquiry or study.

2. Methodological activity, discipline, or study: I've got packing a suitcase down to a science.
3. An activity that appears to require study and method: the science of purchasing.
4. Knowledge, especially that gained through experience.
5. Science Christian Science.---

---the·o·ret·i·cal adj.

1. Of, relating to, or based on theory.
2. Restricted to theory; not practical: theoretical physics.
3. Given to theorizing; speculative.---
 
Real nice quotes again Tony.

But money and religion are the 2 most destructive inventions of the human race.

And you better study some more about the Old Greeks and their civilization, for it is a lot older then your christianity and totally wiped away by the good, godloving christians.

No matter how you call yourself, catholic, christian, muslim, jehova, they all serve the one and same god. (exept Boudhisme)
Your god!
Only the rules are different and the bible is bend in the way the religious humans want for their own kind of so called religion sector.
So take your pick....which one do you hang on to?:confused:

Doesn't matter any way, because it is all one and the same god you religous fanatics hang on to...

Can't you live in peace with other humans who chose not to hang on to your great god almighty.
It really is not so hard to do.
I know enough humans who are christian and who go to church on Sunday, but they behave a lot more friendly then you do.

Perhaps you should try it out and be some more understanding and respectful towards humans who think in another way as you do.
Wouldn't be that bad for you.
You could get rid of your tunnel vision and throw your eyeshields away, for there is alot more to be found in this world then only the bible with its rules and your religion....
 
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