Bible contradictions

No one can say they don't have access to the Bible. It has been translated into hundreds of languages and withstood many attempts at being destroyed.


I disagree with you here; there are still many people on this earth who, to this day, have never even heard of the Bible. And the availability of the Bible to the masses has been only, what (?), something on the order of only a few hundred years or so. Before that most people either could not read, or probably did not have any access to a printed Bible in their own language. You might look into the history of this topic sometime before you make these claims again.

I trust you only want to present the truth to people!


Consider the following:
"All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16-17

…My purpose is not to get my viewpoints out, but the Bible's.


That is fine with me! You of course would advocate that these verses be understood in context, right?

Well, please consider that at the time that Paul wrote these verses the Bible in its current or even in similar form did not yet exist. So in historical context, he could not have been talking directly about the Bible, as you know it, because it simply did not even exist at that time. Paul never defined what actual scriptures fell under the term "All Scripture". Nor should you do so, unless you are willing to take it upon yourself to add your own words into the text.

If “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God” then the Gnostic scriptures must also be inspired, and also the Koran, and even the Book of Mormon. If not, why not?

Which bible are we talking about, anyway? Throughout history, there have been thousands of translations. Which one is the correct one? Which one is the actual “Word of God”?

If you apply some to your life--why not all of them? The question would be then how do you determine which are true and which are not?


Some of the things taught in the Bible are wicked and immoral. I will not follow these verses. But some are good! I will follow them.


"The heart is deceitful above all things,
And desperately wicked;
Who can know it?" Jeremiah 17:9


Then how do you know that you are not deceived right now?

I didn't understand this, sorry. Please clarify.


The Bible teaches fear as a way of life, even as an integral part of salvation itself. Not mere “respect” as you have probably been told, but real fear and trembling, and dread, even after you have been “saved”.

Here are only a few among many examples.

Jer 5:22 "Should you not fear me?" declares the Lord. "Should you not tremble in my presence?"

Isa 8:12-13 ...Do not fear what they fear, and do not dread it. The Lord Almighty is the one you are to regard as holy, he is the one you are to fear, he is the one you are to dread.

Mat 10:28 [Jesus] "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Luke 12:4-5 "To you my friends I say: Do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. I will tell you whom to fear; fear him who, after he has killed, has the power to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him."

Job 23:13-16 "But he stands alone, and who can oppose him? He does whatever he pleases. He carries out his decree against me, and many such plans he still has in store. That is why I am terrified before him; when I think of all this, I fear him. God has made my heart faint; the Almighty has terrified me."

2 Cor 7:1 With promises like these made to us, dear brothers, let us wash off all that can soil either body or spirit, to reach perfection of holiness in the fear of God.

1 Pet 1:17 And if you invoke as Father him who judges each one impartially according to his deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile.

Phil 2:12-13 ...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose.

Is this how you approach God or have you chosen your own way?
 
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Yeah but they don't have the Bible.


They have beliefs. Some are written, some are not. You haven't demonstrated any significance that should be accepted in your biblical mythology over the myths written and told by other civilizations. At best you've made an appeal to popularity.


Actually we are telling you how it occurred--Who is really making up a way it could have occurred? And that is the main difference--Bible Christians know. Atheists guess. I'd much rather know. Your argument for evolution is an argument from ignorance.


The sad fact is that you (and others) truly believe this without a shred of evidence. You say "we are telling you how it occurred," even though "it" isn't verifiable or testable nor is the "how" that you claim. Atheists don't guess at all (at least not in the manner you are implying -I'm sure a great many *do* make guesses about a great many things). They simply don't buy into the many, many nonsense delusions of the many, many religious cults that exist in the world. Yours included.

The irony is, you probably agree with me all the way up to the point at which I include your own religious cult -and it's there that you take offense that I refer to your religion as a cult. I'm betting you wouldn't object if I made reference to the cult of Scientology, the cult of the Fulani in West Africa who believe witches fly banana leaves at night, the cult of Jehovah's Witnesses, or even the Mormon cults. Perhaps you'll deny it for the sake of discussion, feigning (or maybe even genuinely believing in) the acceptance of all religions as "valid" in their own way, but you and I both know there are those within Christianity who think *any* religion but theirs is a cult.

Atheists are no different than most Christians in this regard: we simply don't accept these religions at face value. Of course, we take it one additional religious cult further and include yours as well. It isn't that we "guess" or even think we "know," but rather its that we simply see no good evidence to believe. Just as you doubtless see no good evidence to accept the truth of the Koran to the extent that you would be willing to reject the notion of Jesus as a savior and Muhammad as the only true prophet of God.

With regard to "evolution," there is plenty of good evidence. I won't pretend to be either willing to education or that you'd be a willing student: clearly you have a conclusion to which you haven't any desire to look at evidence to the contrary. I, on the other hand, am perfectly willing to be swayed by any real evidence you might have to support any of the claims of Christianity. Among the two of us, only *I* can say, with honesty, that I'm actually interested in finding truth. You, on the other hand believe you've already found it and, like all zealous and deluded believers, you reject anyone that dares question or critically inquire the beliefs you hold. If you, or anyone else, truly wants an education in evolution, I'll be more than willing to supply you with a reading list of texts and journal articles. But until those that are ignorant and undereducated on the topic actually correct that deficiency, their arguments are the ones from ignorance -whereas the fact of evolution and the many sciences that deal with various aspects of it are informed and tested arguments. If you're willing to and capable of testing and challenging them, there are many journals to which you can submit your thesis.

You see my point SkinWalker? You need to have an authority to back you up.


No. I don't. I don't see that you've made a valid point. If that authority you're alluding to is "science," then you're the one missing the point. Science isn't an authority, its a set of methods and processes. The results of which provide tentative and provisional explanations that are willing to cheerfully give way to better ones should they present themselves.

Yes I agree--religions delude the masses for social control. But truth is truth not belief in rituals and traditions.


To that we agree then, but I suspect for different reasons. You assume truth and believe you've found it. I, on the other hand, see truth as a viable set of objectives and recognize that those bits of "truth" we have now are provisional and could, in theory, be updated should better evidence come along. Indeed, I'm ever hopeful that new information and data will provide new truths, whilst improving or even totally revamping those that already exist. I know of no religious cult that is willing to state that its "truths" are provisional, able to be changed with new evidence. This simply isn't possible with religions since they appeal to the necessity of appeasing one or more supernatural agents -agents that have no evidence or basis in reality.

Why should I accept what I don't know--when I do know? What's wrong with having perfect peace? It's far more comforting to live in sin than to face reality. I don't understand why atheists identify Christianity with "comfort." Do you not have comfort? Please explain.


But you don't "know." You claim you "know." You believe you "know." You doubtless will subscribe to some philosophy of "innate knowledge" that exists independent of your own will, but there is no evidence that you or any of your fellow believers actually "know" any more than my 5 year-old "knows" Santa Clause. Or anymore than the Fulani "know" about witches flying the night on banana leaves, snatching hapless travelers in the dark. There's nothing wrong with having perfect peace (whatever that subjective concept might be to you). And I'm not sure what you mean by it being more comfortable to "live in sin" than face reality. Sin is yet another bit of subjectiveness that varies from one religious cult to another and even within a cult from individual to individual. Reality is the only thing I wish to deal with unless I'm allowing myself to temporarily suspend disbelief for the sake of a movie or a play or a good book. Or perhaps as I gaze through the window of my study at the river and sky, imagining myself on a journey like Huck Finn. But These temporary delusions are quickly and efficiently pushed aside for reality and do not influence my interactions with reality or the plan of the day. I enjoy my fantastical pursuits and willing delusions, but they aren't permitted to rule over reality and I take great comfort in reality and my ability to exist within it.

You know, you said in an earlier post that you put your trust in men's findings. I have found the Bible to be true. Why don't you consider my findings? It sounds like you are picking and choosing and not considering all the facts.

On the contrary, it is the facts with which I'm concerned. I'm more than happy to accept your "findings." Please share with us these findings and the evidence for the claims associated with them. I'm perfectly willing to be swayed by testable and verifiable evidence that supports them.

Its seems like your experience with Christianity was a bad one. I am sorry to hear that and am happy to tell you the truth about. I am a real-life Christian and here to let you know all about it.

My experiences with Christianity have been anything but bad. Indeed, most Christians I know and love are great people worthy of love and respect. But, in this forum, I don't feel the need to restrain my thoughts and, thus, speak my mind. If Christians and those deluded in other subjects like ESP, telekinesis, UFOs, alien abductions, tarot, astrology, etc, etc. are willing to make speculative claims that they stand by as "facts" without providing a shred of evidence to support them, then criticism, inquiry, and even ridicule is what they deserve.

btw Are you a scientist of some sort or what do you do for a living?

I'm just starting grad school in the field of archaeology.
 
JimHR said:
Okay M*W and SkinWalker--what do you mean that I am preaching? Is this not a discussion labeled "Biblical contradictions?" How can I explain anything if I don't use any Bible refereneces?
They mean, JimHR, that they can preach anything they want to you but you cannot preach to them! I completely disagree with them on this, in the strongest terms! It kind of makes it look like they are afraid of truth or something! Of course they will never admit this.

That's not it at all. I fully expect and *hope* that others will quote scriptures to support/discount claims of contradictions in this thread. My comments, warning against "preaching" were with regard to overt attempts at proselytizing and spreading the "word" without any regard for the topic at hand. That sort of post would necessarily be deleted as off-topic.

I would say that JimHR's quotation of Psalms was very borderline and I failed to see what the relevance was to the topic, but, giving him the benefit of the doubt, it seemed more prudent to simply offer a casual warning for the sake of the topic itself. I'd say we've derailed the topic long enough.

Getting it back on topic, is anyone willing to comment on the contradictory nature of the biblical account of Exodus and the wandering Israelites? The archaeological evidence doesn't match the biblical myth because of a disconnect in chronology of place names. I posted about this elsewhere, but if it interests anyone here, I'm willing to post it again.

I'm also waiting for an answer in this or another thread with regard to biblical prophecy, since these are contradictions in themselves. What biblical "prophecy" is the most convincing to the believers?
 
Actually we are telling you how it occurred--Who is really making up a way it could have occurred? And that is the main difference--Bible Christians know Atheists guess. I'd much rather know. Your argument for evolution is an argument from ignorance.

You see my point SkinWalker? You need to have an authority to back you up.

Yes I agree--religions delude the masses for social control. But truth is truth not belief in rituals and traditions.

Considering the "sinfull" nature of man as so many christians love to emphasize....what makes you think something as important as the word of God would filter thru so many human(sinfull) hands without any type of corruption??
 
Just compare the Old Testament to the Dead Sea Scrolls, all the books of the OT except Esther are in the DSS, and they are almost exactly the same as the Old Testament which we read today.

And the earliest copies of the New Testament are the same as what we read today, so your point is invalid.
 
Just compare the Old Testament to the Dead Sea Scrolls, all the books of the OT except Esther are in the DSS, and they are almost exactly the same as the Old Testament which we read today.

And the earliest copies of the New Testament are the same as what we read today, so your point is invalid.

The point is very valid and it was for JimHR , thank you.

I'm not talking about copies matching former copies.Once a document serves the purpose of control for the people who wrote it,what logic is there in making further major changes.( the key word to remember is ..copies!:rolleyes: ) please re-read the question in my last post.
 
That's not it at all. I fully expect and *hope* that others will quote scriptures to support/discount claims of contradictions in this thread. My comments, warning against "preaching" were with regard to overt attempts at proselytizing and spreading the "word" without any regard for the topic at hand. That sort of post would necessarily be deleted as off-topic.

I would say that JimHR's quotation of Psalms was very borderline and I failed to see what the relevance was to the topic, but, giving him the benefit of the doubt, it seemed more prudent to simply offer a casual warning for the sake of the topic itself. I'd say we've derailed the topic long enough.


I understand!

Getting it back on topic, is anyone willing to comment on the contradictory nature of the biblical account of Exodus and the wandering Israelites? The archaeological evidence doesn't match the biblical myth because of a disconnect in chronology of place names. I posted about this elsewhere, but if it interests anyone here, I'm willing to post it again.


Please do! I am sure I could learn something.

I'm also waiting for an answer in this or another thread with regard to biblical prophecy, since these are contradictions in themselves. What biblical "prophecy" is the most convincing to the believers?


Perhaps it might be the 53rd Chapter of Isaiah or perhaps Psalm Chapter 22.

Thanks
 
Just compare the Old Testament to the Dead Sea Scrolls, all the books of the OT except Esther are in the DSS, and they are almost exactly the same as the Old Testament which we read today.

And the earliest copies of the New Testament are the same as what we read today, so your point is invalid.

I don't see how you've made any point whatsoever. Other than a few Essenian monks were able to copy or get copies of the religious mythology of their cult. Very few of the DSS texts date to before the CE. And those that do are dated based upon their parchment/velum not the day the text was written. There may very well be palimpsests among them. Even still, I think the oldest dates to less than 100 BCE, so there's nothing significant here. At best, you're making the usual appeal to popularity or an appeal to antiquity. Neither of which truly say anything significant to the reasoned mind.
 
Hey everyone. I found this thread in a Google search entitled "Why do Christians deny bible contradictions?", and here I am."
I came from a Christian (specifically Baptist) background; more or less force fed it similarly to MW's. And like MW, I have also started seeking the truth and found many fallacies and errors in the Bible as well.
SkinWalker, some of the points you and Medicine Woman have stressed, almost mirror the thoughts that I've had for the past couple of years. I hope I can also add to the insight and learn from others' insight as well.

I've read quite a few websites that list bible contradictions. I have posted them below for reference. One point the first website stresses is, that although a lot of the contradictions in the bible are small and trivial (testimonies differ here and there, different numbers of army troops, etc., people calling bats birds, hares chewing cuds, etc.), they mention that an omnipotent deity should have accounted for these errancies. I also personally think that an omnipotent deity (that is supposedly clairvoyant) would have ensured that the bible would be easy to understand by civilizations millienia down the road.
Why would a benevolent god allow his people to write a book with so many errors; thus causing so many sects, factions and denominations? Does a benevolent god enjoy seeing all his children fight and kill each other?
Would any of you 'fathers' allow their 'children' to beat the crap out of and harm one another in your house?
One other passage (Luke 19:29-34) in the bible bugs me as well, when Jesus told one of his apostles to go 'borrow' a donkey from one of the farmers. When they went to get it, the farmer asked them what they were doing. They responded that the Lord needed it(with no mention of ever returning it). Now, where I come from, if you take something (without permission( and don't return it, that's stealing.
Why is Jesus so adamant in the bible about people not asking for proof of God's existence?
Why does a benevolent deity only offer his children two choices;
1. accept Christ or
2. burn for eternity in hell? <--sounds similar to a choice that most dictators/tyrants in the history of the world offer the people of their country(except it would be to serve them or be shot/jailed/gulaged, etc).
Even if God does exist, why would anyone want to follow someone with that mentality, claiming to be omnibenevolent?

JimHR, I've been reading all your posts to this thread and I more than welcome your (and the others') responses, HOWEVER, please do not respond with faith based or speculative answers (which is pretty much how you've answered everyone else). If you do respond, do it with LOGICAL and RATIONAL responses/explanations, not 'because the bible says so'.
 
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Hey everyone. I found this thread in a Google search entitled "Why do Christians deny bible contradictions?", and here I am." I came from a Christian (specifically Baptist) background; more or less force fed it similarly to MW's. And like MW, I have also started seeking the truth and found many fallacies and errors in the Bible as well.
SkinWalker, some of the points you and Medicine Woman have stressed, almost mirror the thoughts that I've had for the past couple of years. I hope I can also add to the insight and learn from others' insight as well.

I've read quite a few websites that list bible contradictions. I have posted them below for reference. One point the first website stresses is, that although a lot of the contradictions in the bible are small and trivial (testimonies differ here and there, different numbers of army troops, etc., people calling bats birds, hares chewing cuds, etc.), they mention that an omnipotent deity should have accounted for these errancies. I also personally think that an omnipotent deity (that is supposedly clairvoyant) would have ensured that the bible would be easy to understand by civilizations millienia down the road. Why would a benevolent god allow his people to write a book with so many errors; thus causing so many sects, factions and denominations? Does a benevolent god enjoy seeing all his children fight and kill each other? Would any of you 'fathers' allow their 'children' to beat the crap out of and harm one another in your house? One other passage (Luke 19:29-34) in the bible bugs me as well, when Jesus told one of his apostles to go 'borrow' a donkey from one of the farmers. When they went to get it, the farmer asked them what they were doing. They responded that the Lord needed it(with no mention of ever returning it). Now, where I come from, if you take something (without permission(and don't return it, that's stealing. Why is Jesus so adamant in the bible about people not asking for proof of God's existence? Why does a benevolent deity only offer his children two choices;
1. accept Christ or
2. burn for eternity in hell? <--sounds similar to a choice that most dictators/tyrants in the history of the world offer the people of their country(except it would be to serve them or be shot/jailed/gulaged, etc).
Even if God does exist, why would anyone want to follow someone with that mentality, claiming to be omnibenevolent?

JimHR, I've been reading all your posts to this thread and I more than welcome your (and the others') responses, HOWEVER, please do not respond with faith based or speculative answers (which is pretty much how you've answered everyone else). If you do respond, do it with LOGICAL and RATIONAL responses/explanations, not 'because the bible says so'.

Here are a couple of websites for reference. Some of you may have seen them before though. I had to change the dots/periods to commas and add spaces due to less than 20 posts here. I apologize mods, but they are relevant to the topic.

This one lists contradicting scriptures and a Christian's apology for them.
www, bidstrup, com/bible2,htm[/url]

Similar material here as well.
www, infidels, org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html#introduction[/url]

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M*W: Welcome to sciforums! It does my heart good to read a post like yours. If one sincerely sets out to find the truth, he will find it. It might not be the truth he believed it to be, and it may shake one's very foundation... that is, if he is truthful with himself! OTOH, one can seek the truth but then choose not to find it. Then there are those who convince themselves there is no other truth than what they have always believed, and they don't seek anything except that which reinforces their comfortable rut.

What gets me is if what they believed WAS really the truth, why have they been apologizing for it for 2,000 years?

I had a long-time christian aquaintance who always talked (orated) about christianity (his favorite topic of conversation). He couldn't talk about anything else (seriously!). He was obsessed (possessed). I brought that to his attention, and I asked him what he was trying to hide? My gut feeling told me that his obsessive talking about christianity (or any subject, for that matter), seemed like he was hiding something deep within. He became irritated with me and yelled, "the proof is in the pudding!" My, my, now that's really scientific! I think I hit a nerve, because I never heard from him again, but I have to honestly say, I didn't miss his company at all. I was close to his family, and when his father passed away his relatives told me what he'd been up to, which I won't go into here, but let's just say he had been dabbling into some criminally perverted sexual activities (and I don't mean to here imply homosexuality, although that was also involved). He fled this country and is somewhere out there loudly preaching the gospel of christ and destroying other's lives. What a cover he was using, but he really believed it.

Long story short... it makes me wonder what other christians are hiding?
 
Hey just to let anybody know but I had a family emergency I had to deal with the last few days so I didn't have time to respond. But I am still here and hope to post some replies. Thanks

I would say that JimHR's quotation of Psalms was very borderline and I failed to see what the relevance was to the topic, but, giving him the benefit of the doubt, it seemed more prudent to simply offer a casual warning for the sake of the topic itself. I'd say we've derailed the topic long enough.

So I am not supposed to quote the Bible or what? I am very confused what you mean. Or are you blaming the Bible for preaching at you? Cause the words of the Bible aren't mine, they're the Bible's. I simply reiterate what it says.

Getting it back on topic, is anyone willing to comment on the contradictory nature of the biblical account of Exodus and the wandering Israelites? The archaeological evidence doesn't match the biblical myth because of a disconnect in chronology of place names. I posted about this elsewhere, but if it interests anyone here, I'm willing to post it again.

I'm also waiting for an answer in this or another thread with regard to biblical prophecy, since these are contradictions in themselves. What biblical "prophecy" is the most convincing to the believers?

The prophecy of the birth of Jesus Christ of course. There have been over 300 explicit prophesies in the Old Testament of the Messiah's first coming, made hundreds of years before, and there are over 500 of His second coming.

"George Heron, a French mathematician, calculated that the odds of one man fulfilling only 40 of those prophecies are 1 in 10 to the power of 157. That is a 1 followed by 157 zeros. Compare it to this; your odds on winning the state lottery are 14 followed by 6 zeros.

Another mathematician, Dr. Peter S. Ruckman, claims the odds of being fulfilled only 60 of them by the only person who claimed to be the Son of God, and who died on a "tree" on Calvary, and who rose the 3rd day are astronomical!... not just one in one trillion, but one out of ten to the 895th power. That is a one over a one followed by 895 zeros.

And still more, because every page of the Old Testament talks and prophecies and characterizes the coming of the Messiah, the Christ in Greek... so, there are actually thousands of prophecies on the coming of the Messiah, all of them fulfilled to the letter in Jesus Christ."

Just as you doubtless see no good evidence to accept the truth of the Koran to the extent that you would be willing to reject the notion of Jesus as a savior and Muhammad as the only true prophet of God.

The Koran was based upon the universal truths of the Bible. It was written by a single man proclaiming himself to be a prophet. Muslims hold the Bible to be true up until Abraham. This is where the worldwide split came about. Muslims believe Ishmael was the chosen sacrifice to God, Christians and Jews believe Isaac was. Jews belive in the Old Testament--but reject Jesus as the Christ, as do Muslims (though they still hold Him as a prophet). The pivital point in all of this is--Is Jesus really who He says He is?


But you don't "know." You claim you "know." You believe you "know."

SkinWalker the Bible claims to know the way. Not me. I trust the Bible with my very soul.

On the contrary, it is the facts with which I'm concerned. I'm more than happy to accept your "findings." Please share with us these findings and the evidence for the claims associated with them. I'm perfectly willing to be swayed by testable and verifiable evidence that supports them.

Okay and I said that I would be more than willing to share the findings. But first you have to answer me what you would need to discover to confirm that Jesus had the power to save the history of humanity. I want to help you man but I can't if you don't give me any real questions. I just want to be honest.


My experiences with Christianity have been anything but bad. Indeed, most Christians I know and love are great people worthy of love and respect.

I'm just starting grad school in the field of archaeology.

That is great to hear and I am glad that you have had good experiences. I have never really had any crazy bad experiences with atheists either.:)

Considering the "sinfull" nature of man as so many christians love to emphasize....what makes you think something as important as the word of God would filter thru so many human(sinfull) hands without any type of corruption??

Because the Scriptures were inspired by God.
 
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Okay and I said that I would be more than willing to share the findings. But first you have to answer me what you would need to discover to confirm that Jesus had the power to save the history of humanity. I want to help you man but I can't if you don't give me any real questions. I just want to be honest.
I'm not trying to take skinwalkers thunder, but dont you first have to establish that a jesus person existed, as that is an impossibility, your question is moot.
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=52294
so you are being dishonest, by not answering skinwalkers question.
 
Just compare the Old Testament to the Dead Sea Scrolls, all the books of the OT except Esther are in the DSS, and they are almost exactly the same as the Old Testament which we read today.

And the earliest copies of the New Testament are the same as what we read today, so your point is invalid.

*************
M*W: Man, are you delusional!
 
The point is the texts were not changed through many centuries.


O RLY???

Funny, because I was watching 'Decoding Exodus' just the other day on the History Channel and one example I will cite is when Moses and God parted the waters of the so called Red Sea. The experts found out that the scripture of that Bible passage had been mistranslated (which in my book is changed scripture), . It wasn't the Red Sea (or sea of red), it was the reed sea, or sea of reeds. They traced it back to not a sea, but a dried up lake out in the middle of the desert. There was some sort of huge earthquake around that time I believe they said the epicenter was around Cyprus, causing a tsunami. I can't remember the exact details but if you get a chance to watch that episode, it's pretty informative.
 
This is a post I created in another forum with a similar thread topic, and it covers a particular set of contradictions regarding the Exodus myth. As you'll see, regardless of whether it was a "reed sea" or a "Red sea," the results are the same. There were significant amounts of reeds growing in marshes in Lower Egypt (which is the northern portion of the country) in the Delta.

The Biblical Claim
The claim is, in a nutshell, this: 600,000 "children of Israel" escaped from Egypt where they were the slaves of the pharaoh. These Israelites were chased by the pharaoh's armies who were unable to catch them. The entire band of 600,000 former slaves "wandered" the desert, camping at various locations, encountering various peoples and kingdoms, and finally settled to form a new nation. All of this occurred, ostensibly, in the 13th century BCE. We "know" this because I Kings 6:1 tells us Solomon's temple was constructed in the 4th year of his rule, 480 years after Exodus. 966 BCE + 480 years = 1446 BCE.

Exodus 1:11 mentions two cities of Egypt: Pi-Ramesses and Pithom as forced labor projects of the Israelites. The first pharaoh named Ramesses is the son of Seti I and reigns in the year 1320 BCE, so even the 480 years of I Kings doesn't work. Pi-Ramesses was built in the Nile Delta during the reign of Ramesses II (1279-1213 BCE) and Egyptian records indicate Semites were used in its construction.

Who Were the Hyksos?
Often in discussions of Exodus and Israelites in Egypt, the Hyksos come into the picture. This is because the Hyksos were Semite in origin, specifically Canaanite. The same progenitor peoples of the modern day Israelites and Palestinians. The Nile Delta, a.k.a. Lower Egypt, was frequently inhabited by migrating peoples and nomads who sought to find refuge in the relatively stable delta ecology, particularly in times of drought and famine. From about 1668 - 1565 BCE, Canaanites occupied the Delta and ruled Lower Egypt. Manethos referred to the them as heku-shoswet, and, Hellenized, it became "Hyksos," which means rulers of a foreign land. This later became a general Egyptian term for Asiatic foreigners.

The Hyksos had a distinctive Canaanite pottery and architecture, which is present in the archaeological record and, according to the Turin Papyrus, they ruled Lower Egypt for 108 years. One of the most prominent of their rulers was Apophis and their capital was Avaris, known today as the archaeological site Tell Daba'a.

Pharaoh Ahmose I (18th Dynasty) sacked Avaris and chased the Hyksos to southern Canaan to their fortress, Sharuhen near modern day Gaza. Ahmose laid siege to the fortress for three years before he stormed it.

From that point, the Egyptians maintained tight control of the border between Eastern Egypt and Canaan.

For those that are quick to pick up on the similarities of the Hyksos and the Exodus tale, it's important to note that the dates also don't line up with the I Kings account and the difference is more than 130 years. Moreover, there is no "Ramesses" for whom a city can be named at this point. Though, the correlation is one to not be quickly dismissed.

What if the Exodus Story Were Concocted?
What if, indeed? Why concoct such a tale and how would we know it was either concocted or true. Believers in Christianity assign varying degrees of trust in Old Testament mythology: some willing to accept it as myth at one extreme; others taking great umbrage to the use of the term "myth" at the other.

But if we hypothesize for a moment that the Exodus narrative (I'll stick to this term) is one that was invented by the authors of Genesis, then what might we expect to find to corroborate the hypothesis?

First, we might expect that narrative be limited to only what the authors knew. Assuming that they didn't have Iron Age archaeologists excavating sites, we can assume that their knowledge was limited to the geography and politics of their time.

Second, if the narrative is an invented one, we would fail to see corroboration in Egyptian texts of it.

Third, if, indeed, this is a narrative invented by a much later author or set of authors, we would not expect to find archaeological evidence that supports it.

Guess What?
The sites mentioned in Exodus are real. This is something that Ice brings up all the time. He's said (and I'm paraphrasing), "if the bible is false, then why do all the sites exist?"

The problem is this: the sites mentioned were sparsely populated by a few pastoralists or otherwise completely unoccupied during the alleged period that Exodus occurred in the Late Bronze Age (13th century BCE). A few were well-known and occupied much earlier and certainly much later than the Late Bronze Age, but during the Exodus period, nada. They were unoccupied at precisely the time they were reported to be by Exodus.

Not only that, but Egyptian texts don't mention "Israelites" at all. If 600,000 slaves escaped the pharaoh, they were so stealthy they slipped past all the border stations that were put into place following the Hyksos expulsion, snuck past each of the fortifications used to supply soldiers along the "Ways of Horus," the 250 km route between Egypt and Gaza. And they successfully eluded Egyptian soldiers that were already present in Canaan, which was controlled by Egypt from the 13th through the 7th centuries BCE. The only mention of "Israel" is on the Merneptah Stele where Merneptah (1213-1203 BCE) boasts that "Isrir lies in waste its seed no more." The lack of a country determinative in the hieroglyphs clearly indicates Merneptah was referring to a people not a country and the depiction of the Israelites on the stele was consistent with Canaanite hair style.

Addressing the third point above, regarding archaeological evidence, our friend Ice is so frequently pointing out that biblical mythology has been the reason behind much of the archaeology in the Levant. This, too, is something that Ice has said which is true (the other being that places in the bible exist). There has been extensive work done in archaeology in the Levant, particularly in the Sinai desert where the "children of Israel" (all 600,000 of them) were said to "wander."

Let's put the number into perspective. Fresno and Mission Viejo, both in California have populations of 500,000. Bakersfield is only 250,000. Vancouver, Canada has a population of 600,000.

Not a single archaeological expedition, and there have been a great many, has discovered evidence of any substantial group of people subsisting off of the land in the Sinai desert or in or near any of the sites mentioned in Exodus. According to the biblical narrative, the equivalent of the population of Vancouver was moving around and camping in the desert for 40 years. Not only were they stealthy (not encountering the Egyptian armies who recorded even encounters with a few nomadic pastoralists tending their flocks); but they were frugal! Not a single pot sherd has been found!

Not a single campsite or site of occupation has been found with the exception of the well-documented coastal forts and stations of the Egyptian army for the period of Ramesses II or for any of his immediate predecessors or successors. There have been repeated archaeological excavations at the site of St. Catherine's Monastary in the Sinai, where Moses is supposed to have spoken to a burning bush, but the results have always been negative evidence. Not a single sherd or indication that the site was occupied in the Late Bronze Age. Modern archaeological techniques can trace the remains of hunter-gather and pastoral nomads all over the world, but cannot find a population the size of that of Vancouver in a barren desert! Indeed, the activity of a small population of pastoralists is present in the 3rd millennium (2000-3000) BCE, as well as in the Hellenistic and Byzantine periods. But the evidence is NON-EXISTENT for the Late Bronze Age.

Tell Arad
East of Beersheba there is the remains of a great Early Bronze Age city that spans about 25 acres. A "tell" is a mound of past human habitation that has since eroded from mud bricks to a pile of dirt, often built upon again and again over many generations. This tell also became an Iron Age fort, but there are no remains for the Late Bronze Age when Exodus is alleged to have happened.

This directly contradicts the biblical narrative since the king of Arad "who dwelt in the Negeb" attacked the Israelites who appealed for divine intervention to destroy the Canaanite cities (Num. 21:1-3). There's no evidence of Arad anywhere in the Beersheba valley (Negeb).

Tell Heshban
The wandering Jews supposedly did battle here with the Ammorite king, Sihon, who tried to block there passage (Num. 21:21-25). Excavations here reveal NO Bronze Age city. Not even a village.

Eddom and Ammon were alleged to be full-fledge states ruled by kings on the Transjordan plateau, yet the evidence shows that the plateau was sparsely inhabited by pastoralist populations in the Bronze Age. Not a single sedentary population is evident in the archaeological record.

Conclusion
Clearly, Exodus was a story written by authors in the 7th century, or possibly as late as the 6th century, BCE. The place names mentioned above existed in by the 7th century but not in the Bronze Age. Iron Age authors would have known of the many public works created by the Saite Dynasty in Egypt's 26th Dynasty, who employed the largest numbers of foreign settlers. A large community of immigrants from Judah was present from the 7th through the 6th centuries. Pithom, mentioned in Exodus 1:11, was built in the 7th century. Migdol, mentioned in Exodus 14:2, was built in the 7th century.

Exodus did not happen in the period or in the manner in which it is portrayed in biblical mythology.

Useful References:


Beitak, M. (1996). Avaris the capital of the Hyksos: recent excavations of Tell el-Daba. London

Finkelstein, I. & Silberman, N.A. (2001). The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and The Origin of its Sacred Texts. New York

Oren, E.D. (1987). The "Ways of Horus" in North Sinai. In Rainey, A.F. (editor), Egypt, Israel, Sinai: Archaeological and Historical Relationships in the Biblical Period. Tel-Aviv

Redford, D.B. (1992). Egypt, Canaan and Israel in Ancient Times. Princeton

Redford, D.B. (1987) An Egyptological perspective on the Exodus narrative. In: Rainey, A.F. (editor), Egypt, Israel, Sinai: Archaeological and Historical Relationships in the Biblical Period. Tel-Aviv

Redford, D.B. (1973). Studies in Relations between Palestine and Egypt during the First Millennium B. C.: II. The Twenty-Second Dynasty Journal of the American Oriental Society, 93(1), pp. 3-17.
 
So I am not supposed to quote the Bible or what? I am very confused what you mean.

Let me clarify. If your quote is to demonstrated a point or provide clarification of what you're saying, there's no reason you can't quote the bible or any other source. However, if your intent is to just preach or proselytize, then your quote is misplaced, inappropriate and you've got the wrong forum for that. I'll delete it if that's the case. The quote must be relative to the discussion and not designed solely to "preach."

The prophecy of the birth of Jesus Christ of course. There have been over 300 explicit prophesies in the Old Testament of the Messiah's first coming, made hundreds of years before, and there are over 500 of His second coming.

And your evidence that Jesus, the alleged Christ, actually existed is what, precisely? And, assuming that he *did* exist, what's the evidence that he performed the sorcery mentioned in biblical mythology? For that matter, what's the evidence that he was involved in even the most mundane and non-paranormal things mentioned in the bible? Indeed, I suggest you review one of my earlier posts in this thread (pp 1 or 2) for the evidence that the alleged "witnesses" of his acts really weren't witnesses at all since they got some very basic information wrong about the geography of Israel. Moreover, these "witnesses" have many disagreements that make it seem as though they are actually copying one another, which in a pre-printing press world would be wholly appropriate.

And still more, because every page of the Old Testament talks and prophecies and characterizes the coming of the Messiah, the Christ in Greek... so, there are actually thousands of prophecies on the coming of the Messiah, all of them fulfilled to the letter in Jesus Christ."

Yes. And the inventors of New Testament mythology conveniently wrote with these 'prophecies' in mind.

Again, what's the most convincing prophecy? The one that has some independent verification. I thought I asked for one that could be verified independently of the very mythology that asserts it, but I must have omitted that standard. You can't seriously expect to claim that a book makes a prophetic claim; the prophecy came true; the evidence that it did is in the book that made the claim. This is pure hogwash.

SkinWalker the Bible claims to know the way. Not me. I trust the Bible with my very soul.

Exactly. Faith is blind trust without, indeed in spite of, evidence. The evidence is that biblical mythology, while poetically and culturally beautiful and wonderful as literature, is literature written by Iron Age propagandists with a political agenda and later added to by new propagandists with a new political agenda. The texts we have in the mythical compilation were voted on by committee for Pete's sake!

Okay and I said that I would be more than willing to share the findings. But first you have to answer me what you would need to discover to confirm that Jesus had the power to save the history of humanity. I want to help you man but I can't if you don't give me any real questions. I just want to be honest.

What is the independent and verifiable evidence that the mythical character Jesus existed? And, assuming that he existed, what is the independent and verifiable evidence that he performed feats of magic (you'll undoubtedly object to the term magic, but that's what it is)?
 
Okay clearly all of these posts have to do with the credibility of the Bible. You see? The Bible is an authority. All of religions and faiths and beliefs are measured against the Bible. Isn't that interesting? I mean people spend their whole lives trying to discredit/prove the Bible.

This just goes back to what people put their faith in. They put their faith in themselves, their religion--or the Bible.

So I apologize for not focusing more on the credibility of the Bible since this discussion forum adresses that. I guess I thought I would get to know each of you somewhat before I threw the Bible's thoughts out there.
 
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