Biblical Morality

[Dywyddyr]

Ah right. You're incapable of quoting what you want to reply to.
And those mindsets would be...?

 

[Thoreau]

Holy crap. I start the thread and come back a few hours later and its exploded to 3 pages already. Ill have to add my two cents to various comments tomorrow. I'm check this from my phone and its a pain to type long responses on these itty bitty keys.

 

[spidergoat]

do you know, that what eve ingested could have been a lie...a mere thought, that in accordance with science and everything we observe would have changed our bodies and our environments forever?

The lie was probably the vain desire for a God.

john, we're all born into what our ancestors, and their ancestors, and their ancestors and so on did, and we have to deal with it. that's the truth.

All of our ancestors were successful by definition. I for one am proud of that. I won't disgrace them by calling them sinful, you don't even know them.

 

[birch]

ok, let's take one thought and introduce a lie.

for one person, let's change the thought "i am beautiful" to "i am ugly". think about how that one thought could change the lifestyle of the believer, and how the change could impact the believer's offspring, and their offspring, and so on, and so on. we live in a world full of lies and it has a direct impact on our health and our evolution.

this is one of the wisest things i've read from you. i think you mean the lie can become the truth from deception so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. a person can end up believing a lie and that lie can even influence their actions and it becomes a domino effect in the world or one can cheat another which changes another's destiny etc.

this is true, unfortunately. the world is full of deception of many kinds.

 

[Lori_7]

The lie was probably the vain desire for a God.

i believe the lie was that they would not die if they ate.

All of our ancestors were successful by definition. I for one am proud of that. I won't disgrace them by calling them sinful, you don't even know them.

i wouldn't call them any more sinful than i would call myself.

really? you're even remotely satisfied with the way we live?

 

[Lori_7]

How would that be a"lie"?
Beauty is a perception. A personal judgement.
In other words someone who is beautiful to one person may well be considered ugly to another.

a perception that may not be based in truth. take a beautiful baby who's psycho parents tell it how ugly and stupid and worthless it is every day growing up, only to be confirmed by an extremely superficial and materialistic society in adulthood.

That is a thought that would have to be acted upon, constantly - i.e. not a "mere thought".
And you still haven't shown how it affects ones body. Or done anything other than claim that it "could" affect their offspring.
And no hint of "science"...
So far all you're doing is waffling. As usual.

isn't some level of belief implicit in the term "lie"? there are an infinite number of incorrect assertions one could make, but the lie commences when these incorrect assertions are used to perpetuate a fraud, and are believed to the extent in which people base decisions on them.

this is psych 101. a good indicator of how many lies are being perpetuated is the number of psychologists and psychiatrists in business, how many people are on a drug, or doing drugs, or have eating disorders, or are abusive, or self-destructive because they're lonely, depressed, angry, or sad. most psychologists spend most of their time trying to undo lies that people have been conditioned by, and control or reverse the symptoms that the lie manifests itself into. it's interesting too that certain biological or genetic conditions or traits can affect what a person believes.

 

[Dywyddyr]

a perception that may not be based in truth. take a beautiful baby who's psycho parents tell it how ugly and stupid and worthless it is every day growing up, only to be confirmed by an extremely superficial and materialistic society in adulthood.

No you're missing the point entirely: that baby is not in fact beautiful - it's judged/ perceived to be - by others. Or not... "Beauty" is nothing more than a "value judgement" - and that judgement varies with each individual.

isn't some level of belief implicit in the term "lie"? there are an infinite number of incorrect assertions one could make, but the lie commences when these incorrect assertions are used to perpetuate a fraud, and are believed to the extent in which people base decisions on them.

Huh? A lie is knowingly saying something counter the facts as known by the speaker.

this is psych 101. a good indicator of how many lies are being perpetuated is the number of psychologists and psychiatrists in business, how many people are on a drug, or doing drugs, or have eating disorders, or are abusive, or self-destructive because they're lonely, depressed, angry, or sad. most psychologists spend most of their time trying to undo lies that people have been conditioned by, and control or reverse the symptoms that the lie manifests itself into.

Maybe you should move up to psych 201. This is not the actual case.

 

[birch]

No you're missing the point entirely: that baby is not in fact beautiful - it's judged/ perceived to be - by others. Or not... "Beauty" is nothing more than a "value judgement" - and that judgement varies with each individual.


Huh? A lie is knowingly saying something counter the facts as known by the speaker.


Maybe you should move up to psych 201. This is not the actual case.

the point is people can think opinions are facts. do we not argue about religion here for the same reason?

or how about if one believes all people with freckles should be exterminated or are ugly? if enough people believe their opinion is a fact, then it can be used against others.

 

[Dywyddyr]

the point is people can think opinions are facts.

And you appear to be missing the "point" of this particular part of the dispute:
Lori claimed that a single thought changed our bodies (and those of our descendants). Forever. And that science has shown this.

I have asked her to substantiate this and she's waffling.

 

[birch]

And you appear to be missing the "point" of this particular part of the dispute:
Lori claimed that a single thought changed our bodies (and those of our descendants). Forever. And that science has shown this.

I have asked her to substantiate this and she's waffling.

she may have made a mistake in saying that 'science' has some concrete proof in a box but what she said is very obvious.

what one thinks will most often determine their actions so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

in japan, fishermen used to throw crabs back in the water that resembled samurai's to them so therefore more of the ones who resembled those particular features were greater in number.

also, if you have lower self-esteem, more than likely you will have negative thoughts of yourself which could undermine your health as well as the type of actions you take and vice versa. even mood or stress affects your body and it can affect it long-term. this could affect their offspring as well as those around them.

maybe not literally 'forever' in all cases but it could create a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

[Dywyddyr]

she may have made a mistake in saying that 'science' has some concrete proof in a box but what she said is very obvious.

Yes, it's obvious what Lori said, but her premise has, so far, not been shown to be correct.

what one thinks will most often determine their actions so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

And as I have pointed out numerous times: that requires action. The existence of the thought itself cannot do anything without a follow-on.

Please go back and read the the thread.

 

[birch]

The existence of the thought itself cannot do anything without a follow-on.

so you really think that your thoughts can't affect your mood and level of stress which would have an impact on your body, with or without even taking any action?

do i need to go looking for this as well to prove it? is it too common sense?

un-fuking believable.

 

[Dywyddyr]

so you really think that your thoughts can't affect your mood and level of stress which would have an impact on your body, with or without even taking any action?

Hmm, one more time:
Lori's contention was that a single thought did all of this.
In the case above are you not referring to a thought that is repeated and reinforced?
Her claim was that this one thought affected the bodies of Adam and Eve, and the bodies of each and every one of their descendants. And she has also argued (elsewhere) that this change was "genetic".
NOW do you get it?

do i need to go looking for this as well to prove it? is it too common sense?
un-fuking believable.

Quite...
Do try to read the thread. Then you'll have some idea of what the discussion is.

 

[birch]

Hmm, one more time:
Lori's contention was that a single thought did all of this.
In the case above are you not referring to a thought that is repeated and reinforced?
Her claim was that this one thought affected the bodies of Adam and Eve, and the bodies of each and every one of their descendants. And she has also argued (elsewhere) that this change was "genetic".
NOW do you get it?

but you disagreed even though she explained the point that it was not just a single thought but one that leads to a perpetuating belief or opinion of oneself or another.

you countered that a lie is is knowingly saying something counter the facts as known by the speaker which is not the only type of lie. it can just be a false or inaccurate belief that it's a fact when it may not be.

either of those can be used to perpetuate something oneself or against others.

 

[Enmos]

it can just be a false or inaccurate belief that it's a fact when it may not be.

A lie is a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive.

 

[birch]

A lie is a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive.

noun
1.
a false statement made with deliberate intent to deceive; an intentional untruth; a falsehood.
2.
something intended or serving to convey a false impression; imposture: His flashy car was a lie that deceived no one.
3.
an inaccurate or false statement.
4.
the charge or accusation of lying: He flung the lie back at his accusers.

one can believe in a lie as well as spread lies or untruths intentionally or unintentionally.

isn't this being a bit nitpicky just to ignore the point they were making? they should have said a possible falsehood but there aren't that many words for possible untruths in the dictionary. believing in a lie or possible untruth vs spreading it ad nauseum. also, there point had also to do with a lack of humanity towards others which lowers their self-esteem. even if one thinks another looks ugly, doesn't mean they should mistreat them. it may be something they cannot help. it's like mistreating someone who has ms with a wrangled body.

so i think this is being taken out of context just to pick apart technicalities. i've seen far lazier crap that no one even bothers clarifying.

 

[Dywyddyr]

but you disagreed even though she explained the point that it was not just a single thought but one that leads to a perpetuating belief or opinion of oneself or another.

Also wrong.
When she raised the spurious point of perpetuating belief that was an attempt to justify (by way of [false] example) her original contention.

you countered that a lie is is knowingly saying something counter the facts as known by the speaker which is not the only type of lie. it can just be a false or inaccurate belief that it's a fact when it may not be.

Not quite correct since the lie is the fact the speaker does in fact believe the opposite. I.e. he's saying something which he in fact believes not to be true.

 

[Enmos]

one can believe in a lie as well as spread lies or untruths intentionally or unintentionally.

isn't this being a bit nitpicky just to ignore the point they were making? they should have said a possible falsehood but there aren't that many words for possible untruths in the dictionary.

so i think this is being taken out of context just to pick apart technicalities. i've seen far lazier crap that no one even bothers clarifying.

I think they forgot to mention that it has to be intentional.

 

[birch]

I think they forgot to mention that it has to be intentional.

unfortunately, sometimes it is.

just because someone believes something, it doesn't always justify it either.

 

[Enmos]

just because someone believes something, it doesn't always justify it either.

True, but that doesn't mean that it's a lie. If the one telling something untrue doesn't realize that he's telling something untrue it is not a lie.
There has to be intent to decieve for it to be a lie.