Like I said...
BOOK DEBATE: Hitler and Christianity
- Thread starter IamJoseph
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Like I said...
We are talking about National Socialism as a movement, not just Hitler's own private feelings. Some of the most important Nazis weren't just Christians, they were in the highest levels of leadership in the Church. We could also talk about the Vatican's complicity with Nazi goals. Both Nazis and the church were opposed to homosexuality and women's rights.
What does that have to do with the subject? From what i am aware of those things are\were true throughout civilization.
Hitlers influences (that we saw in the later years) came about in the period between 25-35 years old. He was very politically motivated and of course he didnt have horns on his head so before things got bad people "knew" him.
If anyone can "think logically" when it comes to the myths and superstitions of the Bronze age, I'll eat my hat.
Hitler was by definition a Christian. He was raised Catholic. Whether he believed in Christianity, is another thing. Now I'm not sure of this, But, it seems to me, that pretty much all dictators, despots, rulers, etc, have always used religion as the backbone of their doctrines. ( Some by abolishing religion altogether) "Almost" always implying that what they do, they do in the name of God. By "almost" I mean some didn't want any religion to exist, so, they don't count. None the less, they have always had an opinion when religion is involved. Of course this doesn't mean they believe their own BS. And then, there is the talk that Hitler was supported by the Catholic church, or any other Christian groups. Well, I am sure they did support him. These groups hated Jews. He used that to his advantage. I am not even sure that he had a personal gripe against the Jews. But, this platform worked for him politicly. People say, well he said he hated Jews when he wrote Mein Kampf, years before he rose to power. But, that's the point, He was already a politician by this time. What better strategy to use against the masses? Use their own fears and anger. Clearly, this worked for 12 years.
Hitler was by definition a Christian. He was raised Catholic. Whether he believed in Christianity, is another thing. Now I'm not sure of this, But, it seems to me, that pretty much all dictators, despots, rulers, etc, have always used religion as the backbone of their doctrines. ( Some by abolishing religion altogether) "Almost" always implying that what they do, they do in the name of God. By "almost" I mean some didn't want any religion to exist, so, they don't count. None the less, they have always had an opinion when religion is involved. Of course this doesn't mean they believe their own BS. And then, there is the talk that Hitler was supported by the Catholic church, or any other Christian groups. Well, I am sure they did support him. These groups hated Jews. He used that to his advantage. I am not even sure that he had a personal gripe against the Jews. But, this platform worked for him politicly. People say, well he said he hated Jews when he wrote Mein Kampf, years before he rose to power. But, that's the point, He was already a politician by this time. What better strategy to use against the masses? Use their own fears and anger. Clearly, this worked for 12 years.
"I take the Bible, and all evening long I read the simplest and greatest sermon that has ever been given to mankind: The Sermon on the Mount! 'Blessed are they who suffer persecution for the sake of justice, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven'!"
Joseph Goebbels, 1929 from his book "Michael: A Novel"
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You are wrong about that. Even before the National Socialists cared about attracting an electoral majority, their ideology was infused with Christian themes.
"In Christ, the embodiment of all manliness, we find all that we need. And if we occasionally speak of Baldur, our words always contain some joy, some satisfaction, that our pagan ancestors were already so Christian as to have indications of Christ in this ideal figure"
"Christ stands never otherwise than erect, never otherwise than upright...eyes flashing in the midst of the creeping Jewish rabble...and the words fall like lashes of the whip:"Your father is the devil ()
Deitrich Eckart, "Bolshevism from Moses to Lenin: a conversation between Adolf Hitler and myself" (1924)
"Christ stands never otherwise than erect, never otherwise than upright...eyes flashing in the midst of the creeping Jewish rabble...and the words fall like lashes of the whip:"Your father is the devil ()
Deitrich Eckart, "Bolshevism from Moses to Lenin: a conversation between Adolf Hitler and myself" (1924)
The National Socialist movement was often described both among themselves and to the public, as a struggle between opposites: Christianity-Judaism, creation-destruction,good-evil, God-Satan, redemption-annihilation.
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You seem to be unaware that the novel is about someone who finds that Christianity and the churches have failed and the answer is in National Socialism.
Do you think Hitler believed in and tried to live by the Sermon on the Mount?
Yes or no, please. If yes, which parts.
I see nothing in the bible about passion plays, which did not start until maybe a thousand years or more after Christ - many centuries at any rate.
What about violence and hatred against Jews by secularists? Even Karl Marx hated Jews.
Nazi racial anti-Semitism was very different.
Yes, I believe he aimed to emulate the values of Christ in seeking justice for his people. ...In standing up for what he believed no matter what the consequences. He percieved the Jews as violating the principles Christ taught in their valuing the material over the spiritual. He said as much.
National Socialists in general tended to align themselves with the example of Luther in being dismissive of the formal clergy. Just like Jesus went against the temples of his day.
National Socialists in general tended to align themselves with the example of Luther in being dismissive of the formal clergy. Just like Jesus went against the temples of his day.
That was inresponse to this
For the second part, I said "sometimes." With that qualification, I consider the post to be not ad hominem but statement of fact.
If you want to point out those other connections feel free - but what do they have with the teachings of Christ?
People were fighting wars in Europe long before the coming of Christianity. It is in human nature to fight, to be violent, to get revenge or desire conquest and power.
This can assume religious or secular guises.
The plays were based on the Biblical story, even if the Bible did not proscribe actual plays. The mythology is that the Jews gave him up to the Romans.
I'm not discounting that some people had secular reasons for hating Jews, but Nazi anti-semitism was intimately connected to religious issues. They followed the old testament, which many Nazis and even clergy long before WWI believed should be struck from the canonical Bible.
The notion that atheist hatred of religion undermines their rationality is an ad hominem attack on their legitimate criticism of religion. Note that you didn't criticize any particular atheist point, only sought to dismiss their arguments as irrational due to passion.
Anyway, we don't have to dwell on that.
What is the connection between the neo-cons and Christ? I would say it has to do with embracing faith and rejecting reason. Conservative principles seem to be based on faith that God is taking care of everything, that through Earth he will continue to be a provider as long as we are pious. If you think God is in control, then obviously he put the oil here for us to use, and our use of it is part of the plan, and can have no detrimental consequences. This goes against everything that science has revealed recently about the effects of carbon on the climate.
The same principles affect their ideas about abortion. Rejection of abortion is usually based on the idea of God imbuing the blastocyst with a soul, and the purely religious idea that humans aren't animals.
The same faith fuels their rejection of the scientific evidence for evolution.
The same faith fuels their characterization of Islam as an enemy of their (percieved) Christian nation, since they reject the divinity of Jesus.
The same faith fuels their paradoxical support of Israel. The Jews also reject the divinity of Jesus, but God needs them for the second coming, or something.
You are sure he was a Christian but not sure if he believed in it????
How do people use religion as the backbone of their systems by abolishing it?
Leaving out people like Lenin, Stalin, and Mao because they contradict your thesis is not objective thinking.
I said
You respond
1. This is not a quote from the Sermon on the Mount. I won't be waiting as I know you can't find one.
2. In the novel, Goebbels rejects organized religion as irrelevant and turns to National Socialism. Steigmann-Gall's failure to mention this and using quotes from the book to make it seem as if Goebbels was a Christian was very dishonest - or maybe just incompetent "scholarship."
You respond
1. This is not a quote from the Sermon on the Mount. I won't be waiting as I know you can't find one.
2. In the novel, Goebbels rejects organized religion as irrelevant and turns to National Socialism. Steigmann-Gall's failure to mention this and using quotes from the book to make it seem as if Goebbels was a Christian was very dishonest - or maybe just incompetent "scholarship."