Both Muslim AND Christian?

[ashura]

If someone did not believe that Jesus was crucifoed and rose from the dead, but DID follow all of Christ's teachings, would you consider that person a Chirstian?

No. Like I said, it's a fundamental part of Christianity. That person can go ahead and claim that they follow Christ's teachings, but they're simply not a Christian.

I think she is entitled to her faith, no matter how unconventional, it hurts no one.

Of course she's entitled to claim it, but it doesn't change the fact that it's wrong. Going back to my example, say she believed in Christ's resurrection. By doing that, she believes in something contradictory to the Quran. How can you call that person a Muslim?


EDIT: I just wanted to add that I don't think it's wrong for her to pick and choose what to believe per se. Rather, I find it wrong that she picks and chooses, and then claims to be a part of the whole.

 

[one_raven]

test

 

[one_raven]

No. Like I said, it's a fundamental part of Christianity. That person can go ahead and claim that they follow Christ's teachings, but they're simply not a Christian.

We most certainly disagree here.
It is following Christ and his teachings that makes you Chirstian - not following the men who codified the religion.

 

[ashura]

We most certainly disagree here.
It is following Christ and his teachings that makes you Chirstian - not following the men who codified the religion.

Then I guess there's nothing left for us but to agree to disagree. :shrug:

 

[one_raven]

Then I guess there's nothing left for us but to agree to disagree. :shrug:

It would seem so.
I think somone who follows Jesus' teachings can very well call themselves Christian.

Those who disagree, in my opinon, might be better off referring to themselves as Pauline or Nicene.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

We most certainly disagree here.
It is following Christ and his teachings that makes you Chirstian - not following the men who codified the religion.

I think that just calling yourself a Christian is against what Jesus thought, so following Christ and his teachings does not necessarily make you a Christian. By calling yourself a Christian you are making a division among us.

"I’m not a divider, am I?" - Jesus

 

[ashura]

I think that just calling yourself a Christian is against what Jesus thought, so following Christ and his teachings does not necessarily make you a Christian. By calling yourself a Christian you are making a division among us.

"I’m not a divider, am I?" - Jesus

Heh, by calling yourself someone who follows Jesus, you make a division between those who follow Jesus and those who don't. Divisions are impossible to avoid.

What was Jesus referring to specifically in that quote?

 

[Baron Max]

I think somone who follows Jesus' teachings can very well call themselves Christian.

People who follow Jesus' teachings could call themselves anything they want, but that doesn't make it true or valid. Muslims could easily follow Jesus' teachings, but they're still Muslims.

Baron Max

 

[one_raven]

I think that just calling yourself a Christian is against what Jesus thought

Really?
Please quote him (chapter and verse) to show where you got this.

so following Christ and his teachings does not necessarily make you a Christian. By calling yourself a Christian you are making a division among us.

"I’m not a divider, am I?" - Jesus

Really?

NIV Matthew 10:32 "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—
36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[e]

37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

 

[GeoffP]

Maybe it would be best to say - and back to the original issue - that one could be a member of Christian sects that deny Christ's divinity and also be muslim, but that being a member of a Christian sect that accepts Christ's divinity (which it must be admitted is the majority) would not be tolerated by islam. Fair enough? The argument is pointless, really.

 

[Christenstein]

No, sandy, it is YOU who doesn't get it. As I stated, you can look it up for yourself. Look, it even has reference to it in Wiki.

"The term God most commonly refers to the deity worshipped by monotheistic and monolatrist religions, usually claimed to be the creator of the universe. As of 2007, a majority of human beings are classified as adherents of monotheistic religions. While the largest of these, Christianity and Islam, vary in their description of this deity, they usually hold it to be the same as the God of Judaism."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God

Again, sorry to burst your bubble.

Perhaps, some theology courses would help sift through the differences and come to that realization.

They were talking about DIFFERENT Abrahams.
The Muslims worship Abraham Ahmed's God.
The Jews/Christians worship Abraham Goldstein's God.

That must be it, right, sandy?

If you think Jesus was referring to Abraham's God from the Old Testament (Tanakh) when he referred to his father, then you are talking about the same God.

How interpretations and impressions of that God may have changed after the fact, based on the different prophets (as they did with each Patriarch) does not change the fact that all three Abrahamic religions (ever wonder where they got that term?) all worship Abraham's God.
Muslims, sandy, are your brothers and sisters, regardless of how deep your fingers are in your ears, and how loudly you scream.

Muslims do not have the indwell of the Holy Spirit or the Gift of Salvation which comes through the blood of Christ alone and one's faith in Him.

Such ignorance almost makes me embarrassed to be of the same primate species. However, I can concede that a lifetime of indoctrination into a cult doctrine can have the effect of creating a bias so great as to remove the capacity for reason and critical thought.

The reason the "gods" have different names in the two books is primarily because the languages are different. The gods of Christianity have various names as well: Yahweh, Elohim, Jesus, Moses, Satan, etc. -with the primary god sharing the names Yahweh and Elohim. The latter two names are Jewish and used within the Torah by the "J" and "E" authors, respectively. The difference was probably due to geographic variance in antiquity (highlands versus lowlands; northern vs. southern; etc.)

The name "Allah" is Arabic rather than Jewish, but is a cognate to one of the Jewish names, Elohim. "Al" and "El" are both the. The word "al" and the Arabic word for god are joined al + ilah to form allah. The word "el" is joined to the Hebrew word for god: el + loah to form eloah. Both words are ultimately transformed from the feminine to the masculine (eloah becomes elohim) plural forms. The etymology of both words have origin in earlier polytheistic cultures.

The myths of both cults acknowledge the same origins of the same mythical gods and the same mythical characters such as Abraham, Adam, Eve, Noah, etc.

Clearly, both mythologies are referring to the same god.

The argument of common origin smacks that of an evolutionist. Apparently, the laws of both the United States of America (minus LA) and England are different though both came from the same tradition.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

Really?
Please quote him (chapter and verse) to show where you got this.

This is my truth, one truth that tells me that calling myself a Christian would have a predefined concept in others that is not truth. I cannot call myself anything since no concept defines me except just being human.

As per request, I quoted the "Gospel of Thomas":
"[Someone says] to him: Tell my brothers to divide the possessions of my father with me. || He says to him: Oh man, who made me a divider? || He turned to his Disciples, he says to them: I'm not a divider, am I?"

Really?

NIV Matthew 10:32 "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

34 "Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. 35 For I have come to turn
" 'a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
a daughter-in-law against her motherinlaw—
36 a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'[e]

37 "Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; 38and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. 39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

That says nothing against what I said, here’s my interpretation of that passage:

If you follow the teachings of your father, or your mother, you are doomed.
If you follow anyone of your own family or anyone else for that matter, you are doomed.
You should only follow yourself, and that will put you against the whole world, starting with your family.

Example: The majority of the members of my family are Catholic, I am not since I was 12 years of age. That put me against my family, against their beliefs. My grandmother did not speak to me for a time.
I started living with my girl 1 year ago, and nobody in my family approved it, do you think I care what others think?

Do you seriously think Jesus was referring to an actual sword? If you do, then you are just as the rest of people that takes everything literally and not give space for the true teachings...
Jesus was talking about being yourself, not fighting each other. You need to carry the sword of your will to be yourself and not follow others.

 

[Wisdom_Seeker]

He was also talking about getting rid of attachments, like a true Buddha

 

[(Q)]

Perhaps, some theology courses would help sift through the differences and come to that realization.

What's a 'theology course?' Is that where people sit around making stuff up from other made up stuff?

 

[S.A.M.]

What's a 'theology course?' Is that where people sit around making stuff up from other made up stuff?

You mean assumptions and inferences?

 

[(Q)]

Could be?

Assumption: A statement that is assumed to be true and from which a conclusion can be drawn.

Inference: The reasoning involved in drawing a conclusion or making a logical judgment on the basis of circumstantial evidence and prior conclusions rather than on the basis of direct observation.

Hmmm... neither seem to fit the bill, though. There's no mention of the 'absolute' or creation of ideals well beyond logic, reasoning and observation.

 

[S.A.M.]

Could be?

Assumption: A statement that is assumed to be true and from which a conclusion can be drawn.

Inference: The reasoning involved in drawing a conclusion or making a logical judgment on the basis of circumstantial evidence and prior conclusions rather than on the basis of direct observation.

Hmmm... neither seem to fit the bill, though. There's no mention of the 'absolute' or creation of ideals well beyond logic, reasoning and observation.

You haven't gone back far enough. The "laws" of science for example. The absolute, beyond logic reasoning and observation.

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Wrong.

why? explain

Not ALL Christians believe in the Trinity

then, by definetion, I would say that they are not really Christians. UU's don't qualify, mormons don't qualify, JW's don't qualify, they be cults
anyway, in the West you can say anything, you can pretend you are an expert, etc... need to prove it,

- the Bible says NOTHING about the Trinity.

not by specific name, but by concept (see below*)

You don't own Jesus or his words.

does that mean, you do? explain please

1.) Have you ever read the Quran?

yes, its so informative on early islams developement

2.) Do you want me to start quoting the Old Testament?

yes, please

You also seem to find it impossible to be anything BUT what you are and not be evil and damned.

arggg, what a powerful condemnation

What you think, therefore, is irrelevant in any topic of discssion about any religion.

& why pray tell, why should we listen to you?

Exd 3:13 ¶ And Moses said unto God, Behold, [when] I come unto the children of Israel, and shall say unto them, The God of your fathers hath sent me unto you; and they shall say to me, What [is] his name? what shall I say unto them?

Exd 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, [COLOR="Red][B]I AM[/B] hath sent me unto you."][/COLOR]

Exd 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, The LORD God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you: this [is] my name for ever, and this [is] my memorial unto all generations.

from: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Exd/Exd003.html#13


here Jesus claims to be God, the people pick up stones to kill him for that

Jhn 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw [it], and was glad.

Jhn 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Jhn 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

from: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Jhn/Jhn008.html#56

Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Rev 1:6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him [be] glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

from: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev001.html#top

Rev 1:17 And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

Rev 1:18 I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

from: http://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/Rev/Rev001.html#top

 

[WildBlueYonder]

Originally Posted by DiamondHearts
I find it rather amusing that Muslims do not find it so offensive to be called Christian, as they love and adore Jesus (peace be to him). Yet the many of the Christians think being called a Muslim is a horrible thing.

You're right, its something strange, yeah?

funny, never heard a muslim refer themselves as a Christian? me thinkest thou be fibbing a tad, could you post link, or samples with links?

sounds like Arab Christians would say they are "Christians", not someone who recites the shahada. check your sources

 

[S.A.M.]

funny, never heard a muslim refer themselves as a Christian? me thinkest thou be fibbing a tad, could you post link, or samples with links?

sounds like Arab Christians would say they are "Christians", not someone who recites the shahada. check your sources

I go to church all the time. When was the last time you visited a mosque?