(I'm -l o v i n g- this thread!)
Write4U:
That's what I've been saying all along!
God "did it" is not a recipe. Not by 3000 years of biblical history. A long sentence. Or was it six days?
I agree. The bible saying God did it isn't evidence that God did it. What the IDers need is to gather some evidence
for their theory, rather than spending all their time in fruitless attempts to disprove evolution, or whatever.
You are asking impossible questions. You want the recipe for life?
Of course I do. Don't you?
Suppose we can never come up with the recipe?
Then we'll all have to keep saying "I don't know how life started". Which won't be so different from the position we're in now.
Invoking ID does not solve your problem for a recipe.
I agree. Invoking ID actually means you've got a bigger burden of proof than you had at the start, because not only do you have to come up with the mechanism for creating life from non-life, but you also need to find some evidence to support the existence of an appropriately capable Designer.
So having a few hundred scientist spending their lives in laboratories trying to design life is gonna solve the problem?
I hope so! I can't immediately think of any other way it's going to get solved. Can you?
At which point will you give up and admit that nature did what we are unable to do in a lab?
Never! Scientists don't give up trying to solve the mysteries thrown up by nature.
Or are you then claim that as proof God did it?
You haven't been paying attention to my posts above. Nobody gets to have their god by default.
So denying natural chemical evolutionary processes as being somehow divorced from universal self-assembly, is denying evolution period. Are you denying evolution?
This the part of your post that made me smile the most.
I say "There's currently no accepted scientific theory for abiogenesis" and in reply you say "You're an evolution denier!"
Is pointing out the obvious really enough for you to relegate me to the Creationist sin bin?
Wait a post or two and you'll see Q-reeus, or somebody, tell me (again) that I'm a hardcore atheist materialist who is closed-minded to the possibility that God Did It.
If not then you must grant that the stuff which makes up the universe is able evolve into anything that is even remotely mathematically and physically possible, given enough time and space.
I don't think I have to grant that at all. That's another example of the over reach I talked about earlier. Just because something is physically possible, it doesn't follow that the thing must actually exist in the real world.
Does that mean humans didn't evolve from simpler mammals? Or because the universe could never come up with such "irreducible complexity" it would be impossible to evolve complex patterns by normal universal evolutionary potentials and constants to begin with ?
Everything is ID? Why do we have science at all?
I think at this point you're asking the wrong person these questions.
Can you explain the formation of the solar system in a few sentences or a single equation?
Yes. For instance, the first sentence would go something like this: "The solar system formed when a cloud of gas and dust collapsed under its own gravity." Of course, that sentence is not the Theory. By if you were to ask appropriate questions, we could drill down into the details until you were satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that that description is accurate.
Try the same exercise for abiogenesis and, sooner or later, you'll hit a wall where there are gaps in knowledge of important matters. That's because there's no Theory of Abiogenesis, yet.
Natural chemical evolution of the universal potentials is capable of creating biochemicals which are components of organic molecules which are components of living organisms.
You'll get no argument from me on that. Now, how do the biochemicals become alive? Stuck yet?
The whole evolutionary process is popularly referred to as abiogenesis because, regardles of how, life emerged from non-life at some point, most likely with some intermediate steps like viruses, which are technically not living organisms.
You can't just gloss over the "regardless of how" part if you're claiming that there's an accepted theory of abiogenesis, like paddoboy is claiming, for instance.
We even have the proof of intermediate steps between purely chemical compounds and biochemical patterns.
Okay, but the picture isn't complete. Agree?
Did God create viruses or did their biochemical patterns emerge naturally?
All
I can say is that nobody has shown me
any evidence that convinces me that God created viruses (or anything else, for that matter). But that doesn't mean you get to have your biochemical patterns by default.
What more evidence do you require?
Ideally, I'd like to see evidence of at least one sequence of steps that leads to the emergence of a living organism from non-living matter - i.e. abiogenesis.
Claiming you have such a sequence is over reach. Unless you have one. So...?