Christianity?

For those of you who actually want to some serious discussion on this, read The Problem of Pain by C. S. Lewis.

In short, the original post makes an incorrect assumption about God. God's goal, as far as our development is concerned, is not 'happiness' but 'holiness'. God wants man (and women) to be like Him.

Mankind's main difficulty in dealing with God and God's will is that mankind is a defective creature; defective by our rebellion against God - commonly referred to as 'the Fall'.

One thing pain does to the individual is to completely destroy the illusion of self-sufficiency. All the pretense of being a totally aloof creature and fully independent of anything else is completely gone with sufficient pain.

Again, The Problem of Pain by C. S. Lewis.
 
Yes, this picture of a "Loving God" is wrong. It is as Archie said, this God does not want you to be happy, only holy. According to the myth, he created us in his image. It does not explain why exactly he did this, but he needs us, apparently, to be like him.

If love was his motivation, then he would not punish us for exorcising our free will. I mean, it really isn't free will, is it? If it was truly free, we wouldn't go to hell if we used it to find some other means to happiness other that God.

So stop believing that this god you worship is loving. It isn't.
 
JDawg, you really have a burr under your blanket about God, don't you?

PM me if you want to talk about it.
 
Archie said:
JDawg, you really have a burr under your blanket about God, don't you?

PM me if you want to talk about it.
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No, I'm just not that gullible. See, I have never required a binky when confronted with the possibility of life ending with the death of the physical body. We all have our moments of weakness, when the death of a loved one makes us hope that there is some sort of afterlife, but the Abrahamic God is such an evil bastard, I have no use for him.

And don't bother trying to convert me. I'm not retarded.
 
So God doesn't love his creation? Ok let's assume his goal is for us to be holy instead of happy. Well then why aren't we holy. Isn't what God wants, done? He wanted to creeate the universe and so he did in a relatively short time ( a week). So if he WANTED man to be holy then why isn't it? and ," well he wanted man to become holy by itself" OR "he wanted man to choose to be holy", is no excuse. If he wanted us to accomplish it by ourselves then why did he make it so difficult? Does it make him happy to see man toil and lose again and again? Why would he want man to lose continually, to be demoralized continually, and some men never actually become holy if in reality he realy does want them to be holy. When you want someone to do something you don't set barriers in front of them and make it impossible to achieve ( as it's impossible for some men to become holy) and deliberately piss them off because then what happens? they quit out of frustration.

In conclusion God wants man to be holy and yet he allows it to be impossible for some to? That makes no sense, so I'm not buying your pathetic argument that he WANTS man to be holy.
 
Mulligan, who are you talking to? I don't believe in God, I'm just calling it like I see it.

And the truth is, dude, that the only conclusions you can come to are 1) That God is a total douchebag that is so vain that he created us just to worship him, and would allow some of us to burn in hell for eternity for not doing so, or 2) That this God wants his people to obey him for some bigger reason, which is pretty fucked up, considering that he didn't have to put us through this if he really didn't want us to.

So either way, God is a dick.
 
mulligan said:
Why does my age matter? What if I'm 10? 20? 30? 40? It really doesn't matter. More than likely, you're simply trying to undermine my argument by trying to say I'm either too young or too old and senile to understand something which leads me to believe that you're all out of a reasonable counter-argument to mine.

I realize that in the world there are opposites. As you said suffering and pleasure. I also realize that muchhof the suffering in this world is indeed man made. Well I have three points then:

1. Even if some evil is man made then God is still partially to blame. He has the ability to intervene. He has the ability to without severe negative consequences. Therefore he's somewhat responsible.

2. Not all evil is man made. What about tornados and volcano eruptions? You can't blame that on man no matter what your argument is because natural disasters happen on other planets where there are NO humans! So don't even try to tell me all evil is man made. What are you going to try to say next? That it's natures fault? Well here's the thing, unlike humans, nature (wind, water, fire, etc.) doesn't have free will! So how can you say somethings evil when it doesn't have free will, like humans? You try to blame suffering on the free will of humans when God gave it to us. When did humans ASK for free will? I'd take eternal happiness over suffering( or what you like to call,"free will") any day! Who wouldn't? What good is free will when it only damns you? So whether you like it or not, not all evil is man made. Even if Adam or Eve had asked for free will and knew they were going to suffer, I still know I never ASKED for free will. I'd much rather be a brain washed and happy than have free will and be able to damn myself.

3. What then about babies who die from natural disasters? Was that their parents fault when their parents honestly didn't think that natural disaster would happen?

So what's your sad excuse of an argument now that I've prooven that not all evil is man made and that innocents can suffer from something that wasn't an evil made by man?

The fact still remains that if God is real, that he sits in his paradise, in his kingdom, while humanity suffers, sometimes by things that they can't control. Seriously, saying God isn't responsible for suffering on Earth is like this situation:

There's a man of extreme power and stature. He has highly developed muscles and is more than capable of holding his own in a fist fight. He can control himself and if threatened would manage not to severely hurt someone. He's walking on a trail and sees a woman jogging and suddenly a man jumps out of the bushes and tackles her. He robs her and rapes her. The man does nothing. He doesn't don't stop the criminal who he's clearly more powerful than, he doesn't stop the woman from facing trauma for the rest of her life, he doesn't even call the police. When questioned for his lack of a response he says," :shrug:That man had free will and that evil was man made. I wanted her to know happiness."
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Age has a lot to do with it. First of all if you dont believe in God then why do you keep using the term Evil?

So what's your sad excuse of an argument now that I've prooven that not all evil is man made and that innocents can suffer from something that wasn't an evil made by man?
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This is a scvience forum and you are asking about earth quakes and hurricanes...come on Mulligan.
 
Archie said:
In short, the original post makes an incorrect assumption about God.
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The details of fairy tales are sketchy, at best. It's nice to know you're here to straighten it all out for us. :rolleyes:
 
Once again your inability to combat my argument is reflected by your attack on my user name and other irrelevant details that have nothing to do with the argument at hand.
 
This is a scvience forum and you are asking about earth quakes and hurricanes...come on Mulligan.[/QUOTE]

Your inability to come up with a successful argument is reflected AGAIN. My argument was that christianity can't exist and yet you're attacking the smallest of details in my argument which accomplishes nothing accept allowing people to know you're beaten.
 
mulligan said:
Once again your inability to combat my argument is reflected by your attack on my user name and other irrelevant details that have nothing to do with the argument at hand.
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I did that.. and it wasn't an attack on your user name, it was just a little joke.
To be honest, I don't even know what your argument is.
 
EndLightEnd said:
This is classic victim consciousness, assuming theres nothing WE (normal people) can do about it because the elite run everything! So lets just sit back and take it up the butt! What people dont realize is that normal people can change things but they have to be united (which of course we ARENT because of religious sects, extremists, etc...)
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Progressive bull spoken by a person who never lived on a street run by a racketeering gang, for example. There are thousands of people living on that street, yet a gang controls every business, it settles most of arguments&disputes, a gang member may kill you just because. A gang is rarely more than 30-50 fighters strong. Yet thousands of people submit to 50. Why? The answer is obvious. People are atomized and everybody is scared for his life. Everybody knows that it's not 1000 people against 50, it's YOU alone and 50 gansters. And that's human natural instinct - to adapt like a rat to everything instead of taking chances and die. Survival instinct.


Sorry but I know many cancer patients, one of my buddies infact just graduated with aerospace engineering degree. He had overcome cancer at a young age and he is as full as life now as he was then. You dont appreciate life until youve almost died it seems. Ive tried to learn from him.
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There are all kinds of cancers. The ones that will kill ya, will hurt you to the point of madness first.



Well thats what SOME people are trying to change at least. Shifting from this "its all about me" paradigm to "its all about US" (the world). I suggest you randomly help someone today, im sure you will feel better afterwards
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I see more human misery than an average person. I do give $ to whomever asks or, if a person look particularly miserable, I offer money/food/etc. unasked. However, the second thing after I gave are not patting myself on the back. The second thing is a thought - yes, I gave little bit of money, but $5-10-20 will not save a guy, and I will not jump over myself, I will not sacrifice most or even significant portion of my $ to help the guy out, because I'm not suicidal yet.
 
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