Countrys that will be changed by climate change

[Seattle]

I wasn't thinking of anything so complex; nor anything about morals. All I tried to get across is that the value of any thing or action does not reside in the thing or action, and is certainly not "created" (whatever creation means in this context) but determined solely by the user's needs, wants and/or appetites.
On consideration of the ethical aspect, I don't feel it's appropriate to put a dollar value on common human decency.

You can't create value without value residing in the thing if you are going to take it's common value to humans out of it.

If you have a pile of clay, it has little value (to humans). If you fire that clay up and make bricks out of it, you have added value (created value to humans) by making bricks out of cray. You can now build a house out of bricks.

If you take the value to humans out of it and the value to animals out of it then of course nothing has any intrinsic value as value has no meaning if you take all reference to life out of consideration.

Who needs to argue this point however?

 

[Jeeves]

You can't create value without value residing in the thing if you are going to take it's common value to humans out of it.

Nobody can create value at all. There is no value common to all humans, except the fundamental necessities of life.

If you have a pile of clay, it has little value (to humans).

It has no value to some humans, little value to others, much value to few: potters and builders.

If you fire that clay up and make bricks out of it, you have added value (created value to humans) by making bricks out of cray. You can now build a house out of bricks.

Yes, I know what bricks are for. I know why bricks are made. Some people who want a brick house will value bricks above raw clay. I know the whole litany of adding labour to materials in order to "create" value. But I don't accept that as creation. It's merely changing the form of a material to something that's selectively wanted. At the same time, a landscape is being destroyed, which is a perceived detriment from the pov of humans who had preciously inhabited that site, or needed clay for adobe houses, or wanted to graze a herd of sheep on the hillside, which has now become hazardous to livestock with all the holes dug in.
Value isn't created - it's shifted.

If you take the value to humans out of it

Who took the humans out of what? Humans valuate things according their need/want/appetite. Animals also valuate things acording their needs, wants and appetites.
Why are you still wrestling with this?

 

[Seattle]

Nobody can create value at all. There is no value common to all humans, except the fundamental necessities of life.

It has no value to some humans, little value to others, much value to few: potters and builders.

Yes, I know what bricks are for. I know why bricks are made. Some people who want a brick house will value bricks above raw clay. I know the whole litany of adding labour to materials in order to "create" value. But I don't accept that as creation. It's merely changing the form of a material to something that's selectively wanted. At the same time, a landscape is being destroyed, which is a perceived detriment from the pov of humans who had preciously inhabited that site, or needed clay for adobe houses, or wanted to graze a herd of sheep on the hillside, which has now become hazardous to livestock with all the holes dug in.
Value isn't created - it's shifted.

Who took the humans out of what? Humans valuate things according their need/want/appetite. Animals also valuate things acording their needs, wants and appetites.
Why are you still wrestling with this?

I'm not wrestling. Maybe you aren't very good with words?

Regarding required value to be the same for all humans, why do that? Ballet shoes are of no use to me but they still have value.

 

[iceaura]

The "problem" of regular crashes has not been solved (and may never be.)

The US economy suffered no crashes, regular or otherwise, during the fifty years or so it was under the banking regulations of the New Deal. That is a better performing "solution" than the ozone hole was provided.

Agreed. But the underlying problem has been solved (CFC interference with ozone creation) and natural processes are causing a recovery. Needless to say, we could mess it up again.

Natural processes are changing under AGW, and may not continue to cause a recovery of the ozone layer - with high probability, unfortunately.
Meanwhile, the problem of CFC production and release has recently recurred, revealing a gap in that "solution" that - though addressed, and apparently effectively for the time being - has yet to be fully covered.

 

[billvon]

this is one of my favorite examples of the lopsided human values of applied moral code

unlike insurance on a stereo/tv/car/house, you can not buy another child
however the nature of the cost to risk value is seen as a direct value of not the risk but the reward for not doing anything.

how much would the babysitter be worth if they prevented the child from a fatal accident ?

Millions, to most people. Same thing for airbags, emergency braking systems, childproof latches and car seats. Thus, the value is computed by the risk avoided times the odds of that risk being realized. Since car crashes are relatively common, people pay a lot (again relatively) for good car seats. Since babysitters unable to avoid fatal accidents are rarer, people pay less for the sort of 'deal' you mention above.

do parents actively seek intellectually disabled people who have less value to employ to match the wage rate of the function of the job they value through the pay rate ?

No one I know does that. It took us a long time to find sitters we could trust. The way most people reduce cost of sitters is to find younger sitters (certainly not intellectually disabled, just young) who have more than enough common sense to avoid fatal accidents, but don't yet have the training/experience to get a more lucrative job.

do parents actively seek illegal minors under age girls to illegally employ because it is cheaper or they are able to financially manipulate them to a loss ?

Nope. See above. If those kids could get better jobs they would.

 

[billvon]

The US economy suffered no crashes, regular or otherwise, during the fifty years or so it was under the banking regulations of the New Deal. That is a better performing "solution" than the ozone hole was provided.

Other than the recessions of 1960 and 1973, that is. Crashes are fairly regular, and are a characteristic of a market-based economy. There are, of course, ways to lessen the severity of such crashes (banking laws, Kenseyan remedies etc)

 

[billvon]

Nobody can create value at all.

That brickmaker created value through his labor.

Yes, I know what bricks are for. I know why bricks are made. Some people who want a brick house will value bricks above raw clay. I know the whole litany of adding labour to materials in order to "create" value. But I don't accept that as creation. It's merely changing the form of a material to something that's selectively wanted.

That's pretty much the definition of creation.

At the same time, a landscape is being destroyed

Mining (for clay or - anything) can be done destructively or cleanly. Do you value landscapes? Then you can mine with minimal or no effects to the landscape.

Value isn't created - it's shifted.

Value is created. A writer creates value; he doesn't shift it from anything else.

Why are you still wrestling with this?

No one is really wrestling this except you.

 

[Jeeves]

Maybe you aren't very good with words?

Yeah, that must be it.

 

[iceaura]

Other than the recessions of 1960 and 1973, that is

Those weren't crashes.

Crashes are fairly regular, and are a characteristic of a market-based economy.

Cycles are regular, downturns and pickups are inevitable, crashes are pathological - like bubbles, consequences of major governmental screwup.
The US went fifty years without a single crash, under the New Deal banking regulations.

There are, of course, ways to lessen the severity of such crashes (banking laws, Kenseyan remedies etc)

If it's not severe, it's not a crash.