Denial of evolution IV

[wellwisher]

I did not limit the definition of life to just gaining energy, period. That was done by those whose job is to discredit anything I say. One condition of life is life tries to increases its energy value, which is implied in growth. Older citizens often lose height, bone and muscle mass, and weight. This is not growth but there are still alive. I will not go there since this serves to confuse.

In my last post, I mentioned an entropy well that can direct and speed the flow of entropy. This is common in engineering but is easy to see with energy. I can take a cup of hot coffee and place it on the table. Heat will flow from the hot coffee to cooler room. If I wish to increase the rate of heat flow I can put the cup in a cooler of ice. Or I can put the ice on one side and get more energy to flow that way.

In engineering you can do the same type of thing with entropy. This control of entropy is just human life carrying on this primal tradition of life by using the brain.

For example, I can put a drop of perfume on a table in the center of the room. It will evaporate and diffuse to fill the room increasing entropy as it diffuses and spreads. If I will to speed this up this entropy so it can reach steady state faster, I add a fan to create turbulence. This will act as an entropy well so entropy flows faster.

If I wish to decrease the entropy of the purfume within the room, I will add a carbon filter while circulating the air. If I wish to add even more entropy to the already spread out purfume, I will add an ozone generator to disgest the chemical into smaller pieces.

It was not big deal for me to see a cell do this, since I did it all the time. I just needed to figure out how the cells does it.

My last question to the consensus is how do you explain the single handedness of proteins and other bio-molecules and how does the cell maintain this low entropy situation (compared to both handedness)?

 

[Dywyddyr]

Could someone please move this nonsensical verbiage to the appropriate sub-forum?
Cesspool...

 

[wellwisher]

You are an expert, right? How about answering this question? Life only uses left handed proteins. Since both left and right handed proteins are possible, how does life maintain this state of lowered entropy?

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Developing a new approach takes time. I have been trying to develop the basic idea first, but I constantly meet with distractions and insults. I never get any questions so I can gauge what the audience can understand or knows, so I find myself repeating.

This sounds like an interesting project. Which university do you work in? How do your peers there--the other PhDs--react to your ideas? Surely you're not using SciForums as your laboratory, a place populated by largely undisciplined laymen with a few overworked professional scientists trying to maintain order?

Life on the other hand, squirrels away energy value, allowing it to gain and build energy. Life climbs up an energy hill. This is unique to life. However, you will never see this in any definition of life . . . .

Huh????? One of the most succinct definitions of life is "a consistent, long-lasting local reversal of entropy." I've posted that on SciForums several times (and it's not my own original idea), so in your Googling you surely must have encountered it.

The argument regarding the 2nd law of thermodynamics is fundamentally and fataly flawed.

The Second Law allows for spatially and temporally local reversals of entropy. Moreover, it significantly does not place a limit on their spatial or temporal magnitude. I have often asked whether the Big Bang might be nothing more than a spatially and temporally local reversal of entropy (implying that it may happen again or may have already happened before but the evidence has dissipated or is too far away for us to know), and all I get back is, "Well, we're not sure the laws of thermodynamics existed yet."

Could someone please move this nonsensical verbiage to the appropriate sub-forum?

The Denial Of Evolution thread is an outpost of the Cesspool that we allow to flow aboveground.

You are an expert, right? How about answering this question? Life only uses left handed proteins. Since both left and right handed proteins are possible, how does life maintain this state of lowered entropy?

You're talking about Earth life, right? What kinds of proteins do the living things on other planets use? Or the beings floating around in empty space? Do they even have proteins? Maybe they're silicon-based, or have a biochemistry that we wouldn't even recognize.

Drawing generalizations about life from the biosphere on one single planet sounds like really bad science! This is how life happened to evolve here. It says nothing about how it might have happened on a billion other planets, or in non-planetary environments.

 

[Aqueous Id]

I did not limit the definition of life to just gaining energy, period. That was done by those whose job is to discredit anything I say. One condition of life is life tries to increases its energy value, which is implied in growth. Older citizens often lose height, bone and muscle mass, and weight. This is not growth but there are still alive. I will not go there since this serves to confuse.

In my last post, I mentioned an entropy well that can direct and speed the flow of entropy. This is common in engineering but is easy to see with energy. I can take a cup of hot coffee and place it on the table. Heat will flow from the hot coffee to cooler room. If I wish to increase the rate of heat flow I can put the cup in a cooler of ice. Or I can put the ice on one side and get more energy to flow that way.

In engineering you can do the same type of thing with entropy. This control of entropy is just human life carrying on this primal tradition of life by using the brain.

For example, I can put a drop of perfume on a table in the center of the room. It will evaporate and diffuse to fill the room increasing entropy as it diffuses and spreads. If I will to speed this up this entropy so it can reach steady state faster, I add a fan to create turbulence. This will act as an entropy well so entropy flows faster.

If I wish to decrease the entropy of the purfume within the room, I will add a carbon filter while circulating the air. If I wish to add even more entropy to the already spread out purfume, I will add an ozone generator to disgest the chemical into smaller pieces.

It was not big deal for me to see a cell do this, since I did it all the time. I just needed to figure out how the cells does it.

My last question to the consensus is how do you explain the single handedness of proteins and other bio-molecules and how does the cell maintain this low entropy situation (compared to both handedness)?

How much energy is used or liberated in a single mutation?

You don't have a clue, do you?

How does a virus, which is a dead clump of molecules, accomplish the fundamental requirements you require to support your bogus claim: dissociation of materials, reassembly into a replication, adaptation under stress of defenses by the cells it invades, and of the host organism immune responses, and evolution into new strains, constantly filling niches with innovations in form and function? Where does the excess energy accrete in your bogus schema, and how does this figure into the ludicrous "plan" to upend the 2nd law of thermo?

How is Helium, a more "organized" atom than Hydrogen, capable of being transmuted in stellar furnaces? And from there build the rest of the periodic table. How is this possible? Your deliberate disregard for the whole of the law renders your claims worthless.

Anyone can cherry pick a singular concept and twist it beyond recognition and apply it as a band-aid to cover the fallacy and fraud of a bogus belief.

You continue to evade the very simple questions put to you: how much energy is used or liberated in one single mutation? How much more organized is one genome from another? Can you measure the entropy gained or lost as you move from one genome to another? You have around 180 of them already solved for you, why aren't you addressing these findings?

You want to talk thermodynamics and evolution? Explain this:

As long as you continue to ignore the most basic principles of elementary courses in science, you have no authority, whereas, under the simplest of authorities - a first course in science - your ideas wither and waste, not even fit to feed the humble Enterococcus faecalis.

 

[Trippy]

One long term result of the entropy well is the single handedness of active bio-materials, such as left handed proteins. Higher entropy would imply equal amounts of both handedness since this defines the most deviation and energy levels. With cells limiting proteins to only one of the two options, this reflects the long term impact of the low entropy boundary. The handedness choices are also the most bio-active since they also reflect the higher energy of the boundry condition.

What is the current explanation for single handedness and how is this low entropy condition perpetuated?

Earth has an excess of one enantiomer over another, because the proteins that were delivered to earthduring the late heavy bombarment (for example) also displayed an excess of one enantiomer over another. THIS HAS BEEN EXPERIMENTALY CONFIRMED by measurements conducted on meteorites that have been collected.

Available evidence strongly suggests that this is a result of slight differences in solubility, because the parts of the meteorites where the differentiation is the strongest are the parts of the meteorites that show the greatest amount of hydrothermal alteration.

There are a number of other possible causal mechanisms as well, including a supernova early in the history of the solar nebula - an event which has other lines of evidence supporting it.

 

[Trippy]

The Second Law allows for spatially and temporally local reversals of entropy.

More or less, the requirement of the second law is applicable to a closed system, which was my point regarding solar output.

A closed system can have localized reversals of entropy in it, as long as the total entropy of the system continues to increase. This is why chemical reactions that absorb heat can still be spontaneous - I can't think of specific ones atm, much to my embarresment, however there is one that is used as a teaching demonstration over here that absorbs sufficient heat to freeze water, and it is still spontaneous.

Life no more violates the second law of thermodynamics than tidying your garage does.

Moreover, it significantly does not place a limit on their spatial or temporal magnitude.

There is one limitation on it, as detailed above.

I have often asked whether the Big Bang might be nothing more than a spatially and temporally local reversal of entropy (implying that it may happen again or may have already happened before but the evidence has dissipated or is too far away for us to know), and all I get back is, "Well, we're not sure the laws of thermodynamics existed yet.

Yeah, one of the few things that we know about the big bang, is that it appears (with the possible exception of things such as string theory) that the laws of physics break down before we get to it (relativity spits the dummy, and says 'thar be dragons har'), so there isn't a lot that can be said about it, only what happened afterwards.

 

[GeoffP]

This sounds like an interesting project. Which university do you work in? How do your peers there--the other PhDs--react to your ideas? Surely you're not using SciForums as your laboratory, a place populated by largely undisciplined laymen with a few overworked professional scientists trying to maintain order?

I think you forget the effort of the few unprofessional scientists trying to destroy that order.

We matter too.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

Yeah, one of the few things that we know about the big bang, is that it appears (with the possible exception of things such as string theory) that the laws of physics break down before we get to it (relativity spits the dummy, and says 'thar be dragons har'), so there isn't a lot that can be said about it, only what happened afterwards.

Nature may abhor a vacuum, but Homo sapiens positively REVILES a vacuum of knowledge--at least the males. Some day we'll figure this out.

Mrs. Fraggle says the reason religions are always invented by men is that we can't stand to answer a question with "I don't know."

I think you forget the effort of the few unprofessional scientists trying to destroy that order. We matter too.

I'm not a professional scientist but I'm on the side of order.

 

[Trippy]

Nature may abhor a vacuum, but Homo sapiens positively REVILES a vacuum of knowledge--at least the males. Some day we'll figure this out.

Mrs. Fraggle says the reason religions are always invented by men is that we can't stand to answer a question with "I don't know."

Fair enough, personally, I've never had a problem with it, because it's generally the questions that bring "I don't know" that are the ones that are interesting, and indicate a way forwards.

 

[Aqueous Id]

A closed system can have localized reversals of entropy in it, as long as the total entropy of the system continues to increase.

This is why I disagee with the concession some scientists sometimes make with creationists, that life exhibits an exception to the rule.

Besides ignoring solar energy, as you noted, these folks completely ignore:

Loops within a loop:

• Krebs cycle
• NAD+/NADH cycle
• ADP/ATP cycle
• carbon fixation (cycle)
• nitrogen fixation (cycle)

Chemical processes:

• respiration
• metabolism/catabolism/anabolism
• inorganic metabolism

Primordial sources:

• reducing atmosphere
• geothermal sources
• free iron (FeII)
• sulfer

waste products

• the oxygenated atmosphere
• the strata

and this is just superficial high school level stuff.

 

[Aqueous Id]

You are an expert, right? How about answering this question? Life only uses left handed proteins. Since both left and right handed proteins are possible, how does life maintain this state of lowered entropy?

Who are you talking to? The people responding to you are speaking on behalf of the experts. Here I will speak on behalf of Hans Krebs, who is not able to do so as he is presently completing the final stages of his personal Gibbs free energy transfer:

 

[Trippy]

This is why I disagee with the concession some scientists sometimes make with creationists, that life exhibits an exception to the rule.

Besides ignoring solar energy, as you noted, these folks completely ignore:

Loops within a loop:

• Krebs cycle
• NAD+/NADH cycle
• ADP/ATP cycle
• carbon fixation (cycle)
• nitrogen fixation (cycle)

Chemical processes:

• respiration
• metabolism/catabolism/anabolism
• inorganic metabolism

Primordial sources:

• reducing atmosphere
• geothermal sources
• free iron (FeII)
• sulfer

waste products

• the oxygenated atmosphere
• the strata

and this is just superficial high school level stuff.

Quite.

 

[Aqueous Id]

Nature may abhor a vacuum, but Homo sapiens positively REVILES a vacuum of knowledge--at least the males. Some day we'll figure this out.

Amen.

Mrs. Fraggle says the reason religions are always invented by men is that we can't stand to answer a question with "I don't know."

Made me think of Critias:

There was a time when the life of men was unordered, bestial and the slave of force, when there was no reward for the virtuous and no punishment for the wicked. Then, I think, men devised retributory laws, in order that Justice might be dictator and have arrogance as its slave, and if anyone sinned, he was punished. Then, when the laws forbade them to commit open crimes of violence, and they began to do them in secret, a wise and clever man invented fear (of the gods) for mortals, that there might be some means of frightening the wicked, even if they do anything or say or think it in secret. Hence, he introduced the Divine, saying that there is a God flourishing with immortal life, hearing and seeing with his mind, and thinking of everything and caring about these things, and having divine nature, who will hear everything said among mortals, and will be able to see all that is done. And even if you plan anything evil in secret, you will not escape the gods in this; for they have surpassing intelligence. In saying these words, he introduced the pleasantest of teachings, covering up the truth with a false theory; and he said that the gods dwelt there where he could most frighten men by saying it, whence he knew that fears exist for mortals and rewards for the hard life: in the upper periphery, where they saw lightnings and heard the dread rumblings of thunder, and the starry-faced body of heaven, the beautiful embroidery of Time the skilled craftsman, whence come forth the bright mass of the sun, and the wet shower upon the earth. With such fears did he surround mankind, through which he well established the deity with his argument, and in a fitting place, and quenched lawlessness among men ... Thus, I think, for the first time did someone persuade mortals to believe in a race of deities.​

 

[wellwisher]

Anyone can cherry pick a singular concept and twist it beyond recognition and apply it as a band-aid to cover the fallacy and fraud of a bogus belief.

The trick is you need to expand upon the concepts. I have already shown how the cationic gradient at the membrane represents low entropy and high energy. This does not defy the second law, since it is a result of higher entropy and lowering energy (via ATP and ion pumps). These are not 100% efficient, so there is also a net increase in entropy, via some heat loss. The low entropy and high energy boundary is set. Let me show you how this unique boundary condition influences the inside of the cell.

The low entropy well at the membrane boundary, due to the induced cationic segregation, will increase the entropy inside the cell. The way the membrane potential increases the entropy inside the cell is due to the accumulation of K+ ions inside the cell. These cations are chaotropic or they will increase the chaos or entropy within the intercellular water. The higher water entropy, in turn, is balanced by a lowering of entropy within the organics of the cell, allowing the organics to indirectly parallel the boundary condition. The singlehanded of bio-materials is one such low entropy condition within the high entropy water, helping to balance off the higher aqueous entropy due to the K+.

This aqueous chaos or increase entropy within the water, due to the accumulation of K+ ions, has another use. It will also induce the organics inside the cell to parallel the higher energy of the boundary condition. Let me explain this with an example. When we mix oil and water, although water can form a weak version of hydrogen bonding with the oil, this is less efficient than water-water hydrogen bonding. There is residual energy left within the oil-water surfaces; surface tension. compared to pure water.

In the oil-water example, there is also more entropy within the water at the oil-water surfaces, since the water-water binding is disrupted at these surfaces and much easier to break and reverse into entropy. The K+ ion accumulation is very useful because it sets a background level of chaos or entropy within the water, that sort of mimics water within aqueous-organic surface tension. This background aqueous chaos allows the organic structures to assume higher surface tension equilibrium shapes; higher energy. For example, the left handed proteins contain equilibrium energy making them better catalysts. The entire cellular innards have this extra energy within their equilibrium shapes. By tweaking the membrane potential, through environmental interactions, we also tweak the K+ concentrations and thereby tweak the local and global aqueous entropy and then the organic energy/entropy.

One modern observation that seems to confirm this analysis are modern cells can still maintain some membrane potential, with K+ and Na+ ion segregation, even without any active ion pumping. The ion pumping is considered more of a fail safe backup. Evolution began with the membrane potential, since this is simplicity, slowly creating a complex internal organic equilibrium based on low entropy and higher energy, until the organic equilibrium was able to induced the parallel boundary condition.

I would guess the single handedness of biomaterials has some of that equilibrium kick since it is a global source of low entropy and higher catalytic energy. It also seems likely the genetic material had boundary condition training wheels near the beginning, until one day it could ride on its own and influence and expand upon the boundary potentials; neurons.

 

[Aqueous Id]

The trick is you need to expand upon the concepts.

No. That's all styrofoam, indigestible. You have to bring brainfood if you expect anyone to absorb it . Example:

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

There was a time when the life of men was unordered, bestial and the slave of force, when there was no reward for the virtuous and no punishment for the wicked. Then, I think, men devised retributory laws, in order that Justice might be dictator and have arrogance as its slave, and if anyone sinned, he was punished. Then, when the laws forbade them to commit open crimes of violence, and they began to do them in secret, a wise and clever man invented fear (of the gods) for mortals, that there might be some means of frightening the wicked, even if they do anything or say or think it in secret. Hence, he introduced the Divine, saying that there is a God flourishing with immortal life, hearing and seeing with his mind, and thinking of everything and caring about these things, and having divine nature, who will hear everything said among mortals, and will be able to see all that is done. And even if you plan anything evil in secret, you will not escape the gods in this; for they have surpassing intelligence. In saying these words, he introduced the pleasantest of teachings, covering up the truth with a false theory; and he said that the gods dwelt there where he could most frighten men by saying it, whence he knew that fears exist for mortals and rewards for the hard life: in the upper periphery, where they saw lightnings and heard the dread rumblings of thunder, and the starry-faced body of heaven, the beautiful embroidery of Time the skilled craftsman, whence come forth the bright mass of the sun, and the wet shower upon the earth. With such fears did he surround mankind, through which he well established the deity with his argument, and in a fitting place, and quenched lawlessness among men ... Thus, I think, for the first time did someone persuade mortals to believe in a race of deities.

Children don't have a long-enough time horizon to be affected by this, so the Divine does not work for them. Their discounted present value of something good or bad that will happen to them five years from now is so low that they will rationally choose a course of action with immediate or near-immediate positive payback. The discounted present value of something that will happen to them after they die is zero.

So for them, we invented Santa Claus. This gives them a one-year maximum time horizon to be rewarded or punished for their deeds.

 

[Aqueous Id]

There's just so much you are ignoring.

If you ever expect to get anywhere with your idea, you have to first learn the basics.

I suggest this presentation: http://casegroup.rutgers.edu/lnotes/Thermodynamics_lecture.pdf

 

[Aqueous Id]

Children don't have a long-enough time horizon to be affected by this, so the Divine does not work for them. Their discounted present value of something good or bad that will happen to them five years from now is so low that they will rationally choose a course of action with immediate or near-immediate positive payback. The discounted present value of something that will happen to them after they die is zero.

So for them, we invented Santa Claus. This gives them a one-year maximum time horizon to be rewarded or punished for their deeds.

Isn't that the truth?

Let's hope the next generation evolves a longer attention span than some of the folks posting.

 

[Billy T]

Fraggle explained: {for Children} "we invented Santa Claus. This gives them a one-year maximum time horizon to be rewarded or punished for their deeds.'"

Isn't that the truth?...

Yes that is a good psychological twist, but I suggest it only gave the meme a little survival value. (Keeping on thread subject - evolution) Meme was not an invention. - What are you? Some "closet ID guy" who believes Santa Claus was created by intelligent design?

There really was a rich Priest by name of Nicholas who did give toys to kids. I suspect to asauge his pedofile guilt, (if we want to go into the psychology of Santa Claus origins.) See a more generous version of the Nicholas story / historical fabrication / here: http://www.stnicholascenter.org/pages/who-is-st-nicholas/

However, the main reason a gift giving Santa has displaced the Christian story is that it is very good for merchants. That is what powers the meme forward to ever greater importance now. - Bah Hum Bug! but I'm a cynic.