Do you believe in miracles?

Life... the universe is a miracle. Just consider it...
Everything, that is space, matter, time and energy all came from the nothingness... from the zero-point field. Even the mathematics describing renormalization within the vacuum calculate to nothing in the end (E=Mc^2+E=-Mc^2=0)... So in theory, the universe, when time has finished, will calculate to nothing again. No spacetimematterenergy.

This is a miracle, and use statistic far too big i cannot comprehend them. The very configuration of spacetime has its own miracles as well. Right... let's encapsulate our universe, with some whole facts.

Our Sun is 15 million km away - and even at this large distance, it is still able to give us heat. The sun is always burning away at its fuel. In the suns core, it is 15 million degree Celsius and is 5 times denser than lead. Here, hydrogen atoms convert into helium atoms. As the nuclei of hydrogen form the nuclei of helium, the superfluous loss of mass is converted into pure energy. Each second, the sun converts 4 million tones of mass and will keep it burning for another 5 billion years or so.

The sun is 70% hydrogen, 28% helium and 2% heavy elements - the stuff earth is made of. The earth came from a 'Supernovae' 6 billion years ago. All planets and stars are thought to have come from the death of Supernovae - including our own solar system, where the sun makes up 99.8% of the mass.

The surface of the sun is called the 'photosphere' and it is a melting 6000 degrees Celsius. Outside the surface of the photosphere is the 'red chromosphere.' This inner solar sphere blasts out gas called 'prominences,' hurtling billions upon billions of electrically charged particles towards earth every second.

Our sun will eventually die out in 5 billion years time - and when it does it will expand 200 times larger and will consume mercury and Venus. By that time, it will be a red giant, and will scorch the earth to a cinder. Not the smallest organic life will survive. Once the sun has stripped away its outer layers and its core be exposed, it will shrink to the size of earth and become a 'white dwarf' - as it cools down and dims, it will then become a 'black dwarf' over time, and will leave us in eternal darkness - not that it should bother us by that time - we will all be long gone.

Our Galaxy, the Milky Way has something like 200 billion stars, being 100,000 lightyears across and 10,000 lightyears thick - light years measure how far light travel in one year - light will travel around 65.5 billion miles in one year.

It takes 222 million years for our sun to orbit the galactic center. Our galaxy is one of an estimated 50 billion in the universe, where some galaxies have grouped with 12 other galaxies, whereas others have grouped in thousands! They make up 'supergalaxies', which are thought to have supermassive black holes at their centers.

We know that life, given the right conditions will thrive and teem in some of the harshest climates on earth. The elements of earth originated from the swirling disks of debris and remnant of supernovae, around 6 billion years ago that slowly began to fuse together - a process called accretion.
During the early years, the earth was highly volatile - nothing more than a molten rock, bombarded by asteroids crashing to earth for hundreds of millions of years. Then, as solar activity began to subside, everything in the observable universe began to take shape - however, life still had a long way to go, considering 'mobile matter' did not come into existence until only 4 billion years ago.

Volcanic eruptions constantly reshaped the face of the planet, forming the geological structures we see and admire today. By now, oceans had formed from volcanic condensed water vapor and also from large chunks of ice from comets carried to earth from deep space. In fact, 'Panspermia theory' states that comets could have brought 'polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons' to earth, and could have brought the origins of life to earth in the form of simple microbes. The strongest evidence of this was announced, rather bizarrely by President Clinton standing on the Whitehouse lawn, saying that NASA had discovered evidence of possible life in the subsurface of Mars.

A cabbage-sized meteorite, found recently in Antarctica, dubbed ALH84001 that seemed to have come from the 'red planet' had in it tiny features, that according to NASA scientists could have been fossilized microbes. The only problem is that the little marks are under high controversy, and not every scientist is convinced it is in fact, fossilized Martian life. The skeptics however admit, the tiny marks do have all the appearances of bacterium - but are considered far too small to be living organisms - which is all very interesting, considering this presumed life came from an entirely different planet; you would expect some biological differences wouldn't you? However, NASA did find organic chemicals inside of the meteorite, including carbonates, which also included tiny magnetic grains that can be produced by bacterium - but such grains can be produced without the aid of life.

More importantly, was a recent discovery in 2006 that seemed to prove the existence of subsurface water channels. Recent photography of the red planet displayed that a substance that looks like water had seeped out of loose rocks on the planets rocky surface - which most geologists believe itself hold all the characteristics of being formed by water itself that might have flowed around 3.5 billion years ago! This discovery will indeed make scientists think twice about astrobiology in the future, considering water is one of the fundamentals needed to sustain life.

Gases from the interior of the earth created the early atmosphere, which were mainly nitrogen and carbon dioxide. And it is believed lightning was needed as a catalyst to charge the first simple organisms. These organisms needed four basic elements; they are carbon, nitrogen, oxygen and hydrogen. The first life would have been very simple, called 'prokaryotes,' which are single-celled organisms. It is thought that the single-celled life formed in hot springs, heated by the earth around 3.8 billion years ago. There is still evidence of them today, clinging to hot vents deep under the ocean... not changed after 4 billion years! It was only when they began to 'photosynthesize,' that the atmosphere changed. These photosynthesizing organisms released oxygen into the atmosphere.

Then, mulitcellular organisms came about and life began to double every 12 million years. However, its not been a steady ride for life at all! It has initially been very hard for any ecosystem to survive - this is because earth has undergone some heavily catastrophic events.
From what we know, nature first came from single-celled life, that eventually evolved into mulitcellular life - but a great extinction would wipe out nearly every life form off the planet, leaving the oceans decimated and empty. Then, very slowly, plants would begin to evolve, then the first insects, only to be wiped out in a second great extinction. This cycle repeated again and again until reptiles emerged dependant of the sea, only to be killed off again. Then dinosaurs came about, with the first birds, and fern plant life, yet to be destroyed in a 5th great extinction.

Only 100,000 years ago, homosapians (humans) appear. We have managed to survive an ice age 20,000 years ago - however, scientists warn us that the next great extinction is just around the corner. This is easy to imagine, especially when global warming accelerates at its disturbing rate.

O'k, that sums up life on earth... but what about life outside our own terrestrial sphere?
Scientists do not deny the rather, probable existence of alien life. After all, we live in a universe with infinite space and matter (well, not so much infinite matter. There are about 10^80 particles in our universe, but an infinite potential in the vacuum) - there must be an equally infinite amount of possibilities for a planet, just like earth, neither too hot, nor too cold, teeming with strange and wonderful life. However, whether alien life has the intelligence to master deep space travel is a whole other game.
Given the distances and energy required, it would far exceed a space crafts capabilities - it just seems unlikely that aliens have ever visited earth. Nevertheless, aliens must exist in my opinion - it would be selfish to presume we are the only life forms in the infinite vacuum of space and time. After all, if they are alien, what are we? In fact, during the writing of this book, astrologists discovered a planet extremely similar to our own, with a blue atmosphere, indicating that the atmosphere would probably contain similar gasses found here on earth. Only one problem... the planet a whopping 5 billion light years away... thus we won't be visiting this planet in the near-future.
 
You don't understand the anthropic principle, as I explained previously. It means the exact opposite of what you are saying it means. It means that obviously the universe is suitable for our lives, since only a suitable environment for life will cause life to exist, and therefore lead to an observer that can observe it. Therefore, the universe only seems fine-tuned for our kind of life.

That means that there could be other places in the universe or other universes, but if they are not suitable for the development of life, then no one will observe it.

Actually I do understand the anthropic principle, but you gave the typical atheistic response, you said it was evidence for the many-worlds interpretation, you interpreted it meaning "Well since everything is perfectly fine-tuned in this world JUST for intelligent life to exist, it can never indicate design, it must mean that multiple universes exist, even though there's no evidence for multiple universes, I'll believe anything over a creator or God-like figure"

And if it turned out that the universe wasn't fine-tuned for life you would be saying the opposite "Well you see, reality is meaningless if we change gravity by 0.1% we still exist"

Don't you get it, atheism and naturalism are unfalsifiable, just like any other faith-based belief system...
 
Because we are made of organic chemistry. We aren't made from some unknown "spirit".

I can agree with Reiku's definition of miracle, it's all miraculous in a sense.

A Scenario for a Natural Origin of Our Universe

Uhm ok...who ever said we were made of spirits (again putting words in my mouth), you simply re-confirmed exactly what I said you don't need evidence because it "seems true to you, so case closed" you'll favor ANY alternative to God or a Creator anything like that...

Just admit that you don't want to believe in God
 
I don't know if there are multiple universes. The anthropic principle only says that given an observer, they will observe conditions within a certain window necessary for that observer to come about.

If the universe wasn't such that life could come about, no observer would exist.

Furthermore, I would love to believe in God, it would make everything so easy, but I have to be honest with myself, there is no evidence for such a thing.
 
I don't know if there are multiple universes. The anthropic principle only says that given an observer, they will observe conditions within a certain window necessary for that observer to come about.

If the universe wasn't such that life could come about, no observer would exist.

Really is that so? Paul Davies a physicist lists Intelligent Design as one of the possible explanations for the anthropic principle, thereby increasing the likelihood of a creator from "unlikely" to "plausible", but atheists can't handle it, they MUST preserve the atheistic faith-based belief system at ALL costs

Your explanation "Yeah well gravity and all other constants just happened to be perfectly fine-tuned for specifically intelligent life (us) to exist, the fact that if you change gravity by 0.1% specifically intelligent life disappears means nothing"
 
I think I did. People mislead the facts do not.
That may be true but the argument still stands.

difficult is a perception and observance if you will.
And ? You are saying that it can't be true because it's difficult to understand, that's flawed reasoning.

From our own perspectives then there seems to be a commonality. The differences that we perceive shouldn't be a reason for strife and boasting nor superiority.
I am not, I was simply saying that I don't understand it at all. Maybe I didn't say it too elegantly..

I certainly hope so...
So you were agreeing ? I'm sorry, I got that the wrong way then.
 
You're talking about atheists ROFL, they're willing to deny and reject any evidence in order to preserve atheistic faith and never consider that God can exist

You are wrong, I have considered it. Maybe you should tell me what evidence I am missing..
Even if such a thing as atheistic faith exist (and it doesn't), I don't feel the need whatsoever to preserve it. Being an atheist is a personal thing, I don't even like calling myself it but it seems necessary to do so.
Anyway, you are in your right to bounce the ball back like that. Neither 'side' won't get anywhere asserting these kind of things though.
 
You are wrong, I have considered it. Maybe you should tell me what evidence I am missing..
Even if such a thing as atheistic faith exist (and it doesn't), I don't feel the need whatsoever to preserve it. Being an atheist is a personal thing, I don't even like calling myself it but it seems necessary to do so.
Anyway, you are in your right to bounce the ball back like that. Neither 'side' won't get anywhere asserting these kind of things though.

Well what evidence would you accept? Oh wait thats right, you never tell me except for "Well if one day God came down" (something you can't gather) or "If you revive an amputees leg" (something I can't do), any other evidence won't work right?

Arguments for design, cosmological arguments, logic, etc...won't work right?
 
Actually, its the opposite God becomes necessary, the anthropic principle shows it...tell me why if reality is causeless and meaningless with no Creator should it matter if we change any of the constants by 0.1%? Why should only intelligent life then cease to exist? Fine-tuning is an argument for design


I never said it showed God exists (putting words in my mouth again), I said atheists don't need evidence to believe in certain things that favor naturalism, yet anything that favors theism "oh NO it just can't be true, now we need massive amounts of evidence, but we can NEVER EVER tell you what can be considered real evidence to us, but if you really had some evidence of which we can never ever possibly name, we would believe you"

Why is it that you consider that abiogenesis can be true or is true but not God?

Why was I born in this country ? There must be some higher force that has done it, because I live in one of the wealthiest countries on earth. God must really love me.
Same thing.
 
Really is that so? Paul Davies a physicist lists Intelligent Design as one of the possible explanations for the anthropic principle, thereby increasing the likelihood of a creator from "unlikely" to "plausible", but atheists can't handle it, they MUST preserve the atheistic faith-based belief system at ALL costs

Your explanation "Yeah well gravity and all other constants just happened to be perfectly fine-tuned for specifically intelligent life (us) to exist, the fact that if you change gravity by 0.1% specifically intelligent life disappears means nothing"

Let me illustrate this principle. A puddle of water happens to find itself in a hole perfectly suited to it's shape. The sun dries it out, but miraculously, the puddle always fits perfectly, even until death!

It's the same with all life. Penguins happen to find themselves in an environment which suits them perfectly. Those shrimps around black smokers at the bottom of the ocean happen to find the environment perfectly suited for them. It's not because the environment were carefully matched to the animal. Rather, the animal evolved to fit that environment. We evolved under the present conditions, thus find the conditions to be a perfect home. Throw some deep sea shrimp into my kitchen, and they will find their world to be very unsuitable, and never would have evolved in such circumstances.
 
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Well what evidence would you accept? Oh wait thats right, you never tell me except for "Well if one day God came down" (something you can't gather) or "If you revive an amputees leg" (something I can't do), any other evidence won't work right?

Arguments for design, cosmological arguments, logic, etc...won't work right?

What evidence do you have to prove the existance of god? Besides the "how did we get here if not for god" or "the bible says he does" proof, it works both ways.
 
Well what evidence would you accept? Oh wait thats right, you never tell me except for "Well if one day God came down" (something you can't gather) or "If you revive an amputees leg" (something I can't do), any other evidence won't work right?

Arguments for design, cosmological arguments, logic, etc...won't work right?

Well, to be honest I don't even know what God is. How can I establish what would be evidence other than the obvious (the ones you already named) ?
You say there IS evidence, then please show it to me.
 
Why was I born in this country ? There must be some higher force that has done it, because I live in one of the wealthiest countries on earth. God must really love me.
Same thing.

ROFL...no its not...the statistical likelihood of you happening to be born in a wealthy country is much higher...why do you think even physicists list intelligent design as possible explanations for the anthropic principle? Its not just a few things, its EVERYTHING perfectly fine tuned for us to exist...
 
ROFL...no its not...the statistical likelihood of you happening to be born in a wealthy country is much higher...why do you think even physicists list intelligent design as possible explanations for the anthropic principle? Its not just a few things, its EVERYTHING perfectly fine tuned for us to exist...

You are missing the point, but then my example wasn't all that good.
Listen to Spidergoat:
Let me illustrate this principle. A puddle of water happens to find itself in a hole perfectly suited to it's shape. The sun dries it out, but miraculously, the puddle always fits perfectly!

It's the same with all life. Penguins happen to find themselves in an environment which suits them perfectly. Those shrimps around black smokers at the bottom of the ocean happen to find the environment perfectly suited for them. It's not because the environment were carefully matched to the animal. Rather, the animal evolved to fit that environment. We evolved under the present conditions, thus find the conditions to be a perfect home. Throw some deep sea shrimp into my kitchen, and they will find their world to be very unsuitable, and never would have evolved in such circumstances.
 
What evidence do you have to prove the existance of god? Besides the "how did we get here if not for god" or "the bible says he does" proof, it works both ways.
The evidence is design, cosmological arguments, etc....what other evidence can I possibly gather? I know, you can't give examples of what evidence would work right?

Well, to be honest I don't even know what God is. How can I establish what would be evidence other than the obvious (the ones you already named) ?
You say there IS evidence, then please show it to me.
Well there's lots of definitions:
- Creator, Maker, Designer
- Unborn, ever-existing origin of all things
- Something within you that causes all of existence
 
The arrangement of life is such that deliberate design is excluded as a possible explanation.

The universe is fine-tuned for dinosaurs and seas of bacteria as much as for humans. It's also fine-tuned for lifeless rocks and planets of methane ice. I don't see how it's tuned specifically for "intelligent life" as you say.
 
Well there's lots of definitions:
- Creator, Maker, Designer
- Unborn, ever-existing origin of all things
- Something within you that causes all of existence

So that's supposed to make clear to me what God actually is ? :rolleyes:
A bunch of vague definitions aren't going to cut it.
 
The arrangement of life is such that deliberate design is excluded as a possible explanation.

The universe is fine-tuned for dinosaurs and seas of bacteria as much as for humans. It's also fine-tuned for lifeless rocks and planets of methane ice. I don't see how it's tuned specifically for "intelligent life" as you say.

Because when you change gravity by 0.1% other life forms can still exist, but not intelligent life :rolleyes:, what a deluded atheist, go ahead try all you want to preserve atheism

Come on spidergoat, just admit it, you and all other atheists simply don't want to believe in God, it has nothing to do with anything else
 
The evidence is design, cosmological arguments, etc....what other evidence can I possibly gather? I know, you can't give examples of what evidence would work right?

The point beings its a stalemate, noone can ever win this argument, as long as stuff exists in this universe we will strive to explain it, and as long as there is stuff yet unexplained people will use god to explain it. Nobody wins this debate, its just a repeated and painful display to observe....but I guess it can be fun to talk to a brick wall every once in a while :p
 
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