Does Physics disprove the existence of free will?

Motive wasn't in question, just the fact of repeated usage.
Then your English is somewhat lacking.
Most people also accept that if something is effectively forced into a course of action, one is not free. Most people would accept that if something has only one option ahead of it, it is not free. Do you dispute either of these notions?
No and it's implicit in free will being a degree of freedom in the physical sense.
Forced by what? I have free will whenever I can do what I want to.
No one is making up definitions, just applying different notions that already exist in common understanding. But if you see having only one option available to you as being free, by all means dismiss the argument on that basis.
"Common understanding" that's not signalled in common dictionaries?!
Then I guess you should also look at the link that Baldee provided to QQ above.
As I said, I respond to your post. I don't respond to links since no one there will be available to justify their positions.
You'll do as you do.
Not a good sign, that.
If you can't debate posts in their rightful context, I probably will.
I debate post on the face of them. It's up to you to express your ideas properly.
Where have I suggested otherwise?
It's implicit in your notion that things, and people, can only do as they "must".
So scientific laws mean nothing to you? That figures, I guess.
I think I just explained what they mean to me and "must" doesn't figure in there.
Maybe you could try to explain where science comes up with a rational concept of "must"?
So you disagree with the concept of determinism, then? Or perhaps you think that randomness within a probabilistic function allows for something to have the freedom to do otherwise? I'm just trying to narrow down your actual objection rather than bluster you've offered so far.
I think determinism is an irrational metaphysical view. Something like having your cake and eat it. Just tell me what's the rationale for determinism.
So you think that if something has only one option ahead of it, can always only ever take a certain course, then it is free? Okay. We differ on that.
If it has a degree of freedom in the physical and scientific sense then it's free, to a degree. What's wrong with this view?
As am I, but without the assumption that it is anything more than a feeling of being free as opposed to actually being free.
There's really just one way to be free and that's how people ordinarily understand the idea. You're free to dismiss this as not "actually free" but that will be at the cost of having to make up a notion of freedom that's both irrational and metaphysical.

Remember:
Please provide a dictionary definition.
Forced by what?
Please explain where science comes up with a rational concept of "must"?
Please tell me what's the rationale for determinism.
What's wrong with the view that free will is a degree of freedom in the physical sense used in science.
EB
 
Then your English is somewhat lacking.
For you? Probably.
No and it's implicit in free will being a degree of freedom in the physical sense.
So you are describing free will as being "a degree of freedom"? In the same manner that a co-ordinate of an object is a degree of freedom? That seems to relegate free will to nothing but part of a description of the eventual outcome, even if that outcome is due to randomness, and no more free than the x-co-ordinate of a point on a graph. Is this really what you intended to say? Or did you mean that it has a degree of freedom? Or something else? If it really is what you intended then you're going to have to elaborate, please?
Forced by what?
Physics. Universal laws, whatever they may ultimately be. Nature. etc.
I have free will whenever I can do what I want to.
That's begging the question: how do you define "can", "want"? How do you know that what you want is freely arrived at? How do you know that thinking you can do otherwise is anything other than just a feeling? Is it because you have simply defined free will to be that feeling?
"Common understanding" that's not signalled in common dictionaries?!
You've not disputed the notion of free I gave. Go figure.
As I said, I respond to your post. I don't respond to links since no one there will be available to justify their positions.
Then let me summarise: "free" with regard the question of free will is taken by many in those circles to mean "could do otherwise". If an object, or dynamic system, could not do otherwise for a given input, would you consider it free? You have suggested that you would not.
Not a good sign, that.
It is what it is.
I debate post on the face of them. It's up to you to express your ideas properly.
At least you're honest in your unwillingness to acknowledge context from previous posts. I'll try to bear that in mind.
It's implicit in your notion that things, and people, can only do as they "must".
I don't see any such implication, so feel free to spell it out.
I think I just explained what they mean to me and "must" doesn't figure in there.
Maybe you could try to explain where science comes up with a rational concept of "must"?
If you can't see how actions must follow the natural laws....
I think determinism is an irrational metaphysical view. Something like having your cake and eat it. Just tell me what's the rationale for determinism.
Classic Newtonian physics is the bedrock, but since (in my view) superseded by the notion of probabilistic determinism, as suggested by QM.
If it has a degree of freedom in the physical and scientific sense then it's free, to a degree. What's wrong with this view?
Nothing wrong with that view at all. It is just a different one, as explained. One is how about whether, given the inputs, it can arrive in an end-state other than the one it does, the other is with regard how many variables describe that end-state, and the range of possible end-states (assuming all possible inputs). Different notions. Different views on the question of free-will. Simples, really.
There's really just one way to be free and that's how people ordinarily understand the idea. You're free to dismiss this as not "actually free" but that will be at the cost of having to make up a notion of freedom that's both irrational and metaphysical.
Not really either of those, given that you do not dispute the notion put forward at the start, even if it is due to you thinking that it is because it is implied by freewill being a degree of freedom (something that could still do with some clarification by you, please).
 
But while the human being's immediate short-range environment influence him greatly, that's progressively less so for environments 100, 1000 or a million years ago. I'm skeptical that knowledge of the initial state of the universe at the big bang, or knowledge of all of the laws of physics, however precise and complete that knowledge (to the point of complete omniscience), would permit any prediction of what our human chooses to do today. The idea that it would, even in principle (if not practically) is where determinism strikes me as speculative metaphysical belief about the nature of reality and how it behaves.
With the advent of QM I'm not sure how many still adhere to the philosophy of such strict determinism. However, the determinist argument for the lack of free will can also be applied to the probabilistic variety, which fully supports all your issues with regard predictability, but nonetheless sees free will as not being free, with the ultimate end-state being merely random within the probability function.
 
So you are describing free will as being "a degree of freedom"? In the same manner that a co-ordinate of an object is a degree of freedom? That seems to relegate free will to nothing but part of a description of the eventual outcome, even if that outcome is due to randomness, and no more free than the x-co-ordinate of a point on a graph. Is this really what you intended to say? Or did you mean that it has a degree of freedom? Or something else? If it really is what you intended then you're going to have to elaborate, please?
Physics. Universal laws, whatever they may ultimately be. Nature. etc.
The coordinate of an object isn't a degree of freedom. In physics, the degree of freedom is the number of coordinates required to specify completely the motion of a mechanical system. Applied to free will, it would be the number of independent quantities or variables necessary to describe behaviour. Broadly, it's the space within which the system is allowed to move by the laws of physics.
That's begging the question: how do you define "can", "want"?
"Can" is the ordinary English word. If I try to open the door, maybe I'll succeed or maybe I will be prevented by external constraints, like, say, a lock.
How do you know that what you want is freely arrived at?
Sorry, I don't need to worry about that. The question is whether I can do what I want to do.
How do you know that thinking you can do otherwise is anything other than just a feeling? Is it because you have simply defined free will to be that feeling?
Sorry, I fail to see when "thinking you can do otherwise" came into the picture. Ah, yes, it's just you being creative..
You've not disputed the notion of free I gave. Go figure.
Do I have to. It doesn't seem to relate to the real world.
I don't see any such implication, so feel free to spell it out.
If you can't see how actions must follow the natural laws....
A lock would limit my actions and therefore my freedom. Even if we assume natural laws are somehow real, and you would have to explain to me how it goes, they clearly don't prevent me doing what I want. Let's say I can try to type one letter I want to type with my keyboard. Which one do I want to type? Hmm... "X"? "T"? No. Ah, yes, "R". Good. I want to type the letter "R" with my keyboard. Let's see if the laws of physics will prevent me doing that... Give them a few moments to gather around and decide how they're going to go about it. OK, I'm ready. Here we go: R. See? I did it. I did it because apparently I coud. I did what I wanted to do.
And, obviously, if nature has any bearing on the question, it's that free will is part of our nature.
Classic Newtonian physics is the bedrock, but since (in my view) superseded by the notion of probabilistic determinism, as suggested by QM.
Sorry, that's much too vague and unspecific. You'd have to explain how it goes.
Nothing wrong with that view at all. It is just a different one, as explained. One is how about whether, given the inputs, it can arrive in an end-state other than the one it does, the other is with regard how many variables describe that end-state, and the range of possible end-states (assuming all possible inputs). Different notions. Different views on the question of free-will. Simples, really.
Yeah, different views. For most people, though, it's just a question of whether they can do what they want.
EB
 
Most people also accept that if something is effectively forced into a course of action, one is not free. Most people would accept that if something has only one option ahead of it, it is not free. Do you dispute either of these notions?
The "something" you're considering here is a metaphysical fiction. The only thing that's real is whatever there is. What we may think of as the person we were just a moment ago certainly doesn't exist now if it ever did. All that exists now is us now, and what we want to do is part of us now. I want to type the letter "R"? No, this time let's do "G". Here it is: G. See? Typing the letter "G" was just allowed by the degree of freedom I had a moment ago and it's what I wanted to do. That's also metaphysical, yes, but it looks much better on the face of it. Something to do with empirical facts. Which also explains why it's what most people believe about free will.
EB
 
Yes, I agree with that. It's a good definition, very succinct.



Yes, precognition certainly seems to be implied by determinism. If an individual's actions are determined by preexisting states of the universe and by some laws of physics, then complete and perfect knowledge of those states and laws should allow such an omniscient knower to know all of the individual's future actions. That's why I put some emphasis on predictability earlier.



The deterministic incompatibilists deny freedom and dismiss it as an illusion.

(Compatibilists define it much as your source did. I'm a compatibilist and that's what I tried to do.)



The deterministic incompatibilists deny that the philosophical definition holds true of anything.

My strategy in earlier posts was to address your definition this way:

"For many philosophers, to believe in free will is to believe that human beings can be the authors of their own actions"

I rejected the idea that this implies a causal vacuum. (The idea that free-will can only occur in the absence of causes.) I accept the idea that the human mind is an emergent property of the human nervous system and hence causal at its machine language level. So my task is to provide a halfway plausible argument for how free-will can happen in the presence of causes.

I think of human beings as being embedded in a causal matrix. There's causality on the molecular level, on the cellular level, on the organismic level and on the emergent 'mental' level. What we do when we label something a "human being", a "self" or "me" is draw a rather arbitrary circle around some of it. We sometimes use the human body for that, sometimes the sphere of consciousness. But however we do it, what's inside the circle is going to be interacting causally with what's outside.

So when we say that "human beings can be the authors of their own actions", we are saying that the actions originated within the circle, even if it was an internal causal process of some sort that generated it.

"and to reject the idea that human actions are determined by external conditions or fate."

That's the idea that human beings are merely puppets, with all of their thoughts, decisions and actions predetermined by their environments and by the universe's previous history.

The "If A then B" idea kind of suggests that. Given the state of the universe at A along with the laws of physics that somehow connect A to B, and B can't be anything other than what it is. A determines B. So writ large, expanding that vision to the cosmic scale, everything that happens in such a way (if A, then B) can't be anything other than what it is. It's all predetermined by prior states of the universe and ultimately by the universe's initial state and by the laws of physics. It's creationism in a new guise, whether we attribute the initial state and the laws of physics to God or to chance.

I'm skeptical about that. Frankly, I don't picture the universe operating that way. Whether true or not, it seems to be a speculative metaphysical theory.

My discussion of probabilistic causality was meant to challenge that kind of determinism. A and the laws of physics may indeed predetermine immediately proximate B to a high degree of accuracy (but perhaps not quite perfectly, especially on the microscale). But A and the laws of physics might not determine temporally distant Z at all. There might not be any cosmic 'If A then Z' function. On the bigger scales things might just unfold unpredictably. I'm inclined to think of the universe and its evolution as the mother of all chaotic systems.

Note that I'm not challenging causation per-se. Each event has a preceding cause in an unbroken chain all the way back to the beginning. Each event can be given a scientific explanation by citing the immediately prior cause.

So where does that leave our human being? Our little causal system surrounded by its arbitrary circle. Its actions are going to be determined by what goes on inside that circle. (We can call some of those events in the circle 'beliefs' and 'intentions' and various psychologistic terms like that.) An adherent of free will doesn't want to deny that human actions are the result of the actor's beliefs and intentions. Free will isn't just a bunch of random uncaused movements. That's convulsions, not free-will.

And I think that we can agree that the human being's actions are going to be influenced (but perhaps not determined) by the being's immediate environment. The human perceives, and that involves interactions with the surrounding world. He forms beliefs about the world. Circumstances constrain him. (He isn't free to jump over the Moon.) Social mores influence him. He visits the fridge because he's hungry and because he believes there's food there. We might not be able to precisely predict his actions by knowing his proximate environment and history (including the inner psychological bits), but we can put strong constraints around what's going to happen. My claim is that conceding that doesn't do fatal harm to the idea of free-will, since free-will adherents don't want to deny that a person's actions come as the result of his beliefs, desires and motivations in whatever situation he finds himself.

But while the human being's immediate short-range environment influence him greatly, that's progressively less so for environments 100, 1000 or a million years ago. I'm skeptical that knowledge of the initial state of the universe at the big bang, or knowledge of all of the laws of physics, however precise and complete that knowledge (to the point of complete omniscience), would permit any prediction of what our human chooses to do today. The idea that it would, even in principle (if not practically) is where determinism strikes me as speculative metaphysical belief about the nature of reality and how it behaves.
There was a bit of wisdom:
"Reality is but a canvas for us to paint our image upon" ~ ( I can not remember the author)
I would extend this a little by suggesting that the canvas isn't a blank canvas (as implied in the wisdom quoted) and that the canvas has already been painted upon and all we are doing is adding to the picture of reality with our own images, imagination etc. Thus reality has an emergent quality to it, and we humans are a cause and effect of such emergence. Being both cause and effect and not one or the other.

It is the nature of dualism to have the polarized view that of cause and effect when in fact every effect is a cause and every cause is an effect.

Determinism is premised on dualism and it is expected I guess that the ego trap that creates dualism will determine their beliefs and responses.
I have considerable agreement and affinity with what you have posted above and will return later to post some more....
 
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The "something" you're considering here is a metaphysical fiction. The only thing that's real is whatever there is. What we may think of as the person we were just a moment ago certainly doesn't exist now if it ever did. All that exists now is us now, and what we want to do is part of us now. I want to type the letter "R"? No, this time let's do "G". Here it is: G. See? Typing the letter "G" was just allowed by the degree of freedom I had a moment ago and it's what I wanted to do. That's also metaphysical, yes, but it looks much better on the face of it. Something to do with empirical facts. Which also explains why it's what most people believe about free will.
EB
It is also a contextual trap that may or may not be deliberate.
When stating the word "something" when really it is a specific thing ( human) and attempting to, with what appears to be slight of hand, justify an argument against freewill is rather cunning and disingenuous if in fact deliberate and motivated.
 
Applied to free will, it would be the number of independent quantities or variables necessary to describe behaviour. Broadly, it's the space within which the system is allowed to move by the laws of physics.
So speaks nothing as to whether the end state was freely arrived at. Got it. You're not interested in whether free will is "free" or not, in that sense, then?
"Can" is the ordinary English word. If I try to open the door, maybe I'll succeed or maybe I will be prevented by external constraints, like, say, a lock.
And maybe you'll be prevented because the initial state of the overall system doesn't allow it, whatever that initial state comprises.
Now what about "want"?
Sorry, I don't need to worry about that. The question is whether I can do what I want to do.
So, again, you're not concerned if your free will is actually free (with regard how the end state is arrived at) only that it feels free. Got it. For someone who has no interest in such matters you seem to spend an awful amount of time trying to argue against it. If you don't like golf would you go to a sports forum and "discuss" golfing matters with people by saying how you have no interest in the game? Or even reply to their posts?
Sorry, I fail to see when "thinking you can do otherwise" came into the picture. Ah, yes, it's just you being creative..
Not at all. It's simply a matter of not begging the question with regard whether or not free will is free (as in how the end state is arrived at).
Do I have to. It doesn't seem to relate to the real world.
The question at hand was whether you disputed that those examples would commonly accepted as describing something that was not free. You didn't dispute them, and you went further to provide justification for not disputing them, in that they aligned with your notion. Now you seem to be changing your story.
So in what way do they not relate to the real world? Is a train free as to the forward direction it can take? I hope not. But that's obviously not a real world example, right?
A lock would limit my actions and therefore my freedom. Even if we assume natural laws are somehow real, and you would have to explain to me how it goes, they clearly don't prevent me doing what I want. Let's say I can try to type one letter I want to type with my keyboard. Which one do I want to type? Hmm... "X"? "T"? No. Ah, yes, "R". Good. I want to type the letter "R" with my keyboard. Let's see if the laws of physics will prevent me doing that... Give them a few moments to gather around and decide how they're going to go about it. OK, I'm ready. Here we go: R. See? I did it. I did it because apparently I coud. I did what I wanted to do.
And you would seem to be begging the question. You conveniently forgot to define "want" previously, so now is your opportunity.
The question is also whether you are free in what you "want", or whether you only think and feel you are. How do you know that your choice of letter R was free? That you weren't predestined to choose R at that time? That the alternatives you considered were all just part of the processing that ended with you naming R? Oh, I know you'll probably say you don't care about that, and that you'll define "want" and "free will" so as to ultimately ignore the question of whether it is truly free. But if so that still raises the question of why you spend so much of your time disputing that which you don't care about.
And, obviously, if nature has any bearing on the question, it's that free will is part of our nature.
But not necessarily a "free" free will, only the sensation that it is "free", from the PoV of how our "choices" are arrived at.
Sorry, that's much too vague and unspecific. You'd have to explain how it goes.
Please don't troll. If you can't be bothered to do even a basic amount of groundwork in what you're discussing then don't expect me to humour you.
Yeah, different views. For most people, though, it's just a question of whether they can do what they want.
Which continues to raise the question of why you want to devote so much time to someone who is clearly not most people and who is actually interested in the question of whether free will is actually free (and not just a matter of probability and randomness), rather than just feels free.
 
The "something" you're considering here is a metaphysical fiction. The only thing that's real is whatever there is. What we may think of as the person we were just a moment ago certainly doesn't exist now if it ever did. All that exists now is us now, and what we want to do is part of us now. I want to type the letter "R"? No, this time let's do "G". Here it is: G. See? Typing the letter "G" was just allowed by the degree of freedom I had a moment ago and it's what I wanted to do. That's also metaphysical, yes, but it looks much better on the face of it. Something to do with empirical facts. Which also explains why it's what most people believe about free will.
EB
Great, you've explained why you're not interested in discussing the other position. So why devote so much time to someone who is, and why try to argue against it when all you have seems to be "you're wrong because I have a different view and I'm not interested in your view" and appeals to popularity etc?
 
As I've stated, "will," is never free. If something, "will," then that is determined by definition. This, "will," that, "will." It's determined. ☺
 
It is also a contextual trap that may or may not be deliberate.
When stating the word "something" when really it is a specific thing ( human) and attempting to, with what appears to be slight of hand, justify an argument against freewill is rather cunning and disingenuous if in fact deliberate and motivated.
First you see progress while still lost, and now you see traps in the dark, whenever you stumble, or wherever you are afraid to tread. :rolleyes:
 
So speaks nothing as to whether the end state was freely arrived at.
Of course it does. It addresses the issue directly.
If you have dropped the supernatural requirement, for being "actually" free.
Then let me summarise: "free" with regard the question of free will is taken by many in those circles to mean "could do otherwise". If an object, or dynamic system, could not do otherwise for a given input, would you consider it free?
You have obscured the central issue by sliding from "could have done otherwise" to "given input".

The decision - a physical event in the mind - is after all part of the "input", in a nonsupernatural universe. Saying a given decision would be the same every time it was made is not much of an insight, and has nothing to do with whatever freedom to decide otherwise was available.

Note:
So, again, you're not concerned if your free will is actually free (with regard how the end state is arrived at) only that it feels free.
There is only the illusion of feeling - not "actual" feeling - in your formulations here. There is no perception of illusion of free will, only the illusion of perceiving such an illusion. There is no observer - only the illusion of an observer, same as the illusion of a decider or perceiver or chooser, etc.
The question is also whether you are free in what you "want", or whether you only think and feel you are.
There is no "you" - only illusion. In your formulations.
Snake eats its tail.
 
It's not physics, it's English that's disproved, "free-will."
If it is physics, I don't think free will is relevant at all. Physics are purely deterministic, IMO, regardless of how we model it.
Free will deals with a form of metaphysical god-like model, a psychological problem of the mind.

One even could make an argument that Adam disobeyed God from free will curiosity of what would happen if he took a bite from the apple, in spite of God's command. This act of free will was immediately punished by God with banishment from Eden, and "confusion of languages". Free will is not allowed......:(

And so it is with scientific models in physics. Delve into the free will domain of mathematics at your own risk. You'll just end up with probability equations......:)
 
Of course it does. It addresses the issue directly.
No it doesn't, it merely speaks to the set of available outcomes from the set of available inputs. If there is a one-to-one mapping then, regardless of the degrees of freedom of the output, the actual output is entirely determined by the input, and the output is not "free" in the sense that if something is effectively forced into a course of action, it is not free. But if you don't want to use that notion of what it means to be free, don't, but then you can't criticise an argument based on that sense by trying to force upon it your own sense.
If you have dropped the supernatural requirement, for being "actually" free.
:yawn: :rolleyes:
You have obscured the central issue by sliding from "could have done otherwise" to "given input".
Not at all. The notion of being able to do otherwise for a given input is central to the determinist argument. That is the whole nature of determinism - the same input (i.e. a "given input") leading to the same output.
The decision - a physical event in the mind - is after all part of the "input", in a nonsupernatural universe.
Agreed.
Saying a given decision would be the same every time it was made is not much of an insight, and has nothing to do with whatever freedom to decide otherwise was available.
?? If a "decision" could only ever have been one thing based on the inputs to the system, how is that decision "free"? The output is wholly determined by the input, and the process inbetween the input and output can only come to a single conclusion (output). Every time. How is that output therefore free in relation to the input? You may not think it very insightful but it leads to the conclusion that, regardless of what you might feel, in a deterministic universe the sensation of having freedom to choose between options is nothing but that. It is just a feeling.

Note:

There is only the illusion of feeling - not "actual" feeling - in your formulations here. There is no perception of illusion of free will, only the illusion of perceiving such an illusion. There is no observer - only the illusion of an observer, same as the illusion of a decider or perceiver or chooser, etc.

There is no "you" - only illusion. In your formulations.
Snake eats its tail.
You haven't understood the notion of illusion in this context, despite having it explained to you repeatedly. Feelings, the observer, "you", do not have the allusion to operating in way that is contrary to the way it logically works in a deterministic iniverse, whereas free will has the allusion that we are actually free to choose - that is, for a given set of inputs we are able to select between available options. Because the logic of a determinist universe concludes that this is not how it works, that we don't have that capability, that for a given set of inputs there is but a single possible outcome, then it is quite valid to consider the feeling that we can do it to be an illusion.

I get it, though. You want to define everything so that such doesn't have to be considered. That is the compatibilist approach. I have no issue with that. But still you try to argue against the determinist view by trying to alter the notions that the determinist uses. Different views of what "free" means lead to different conclusions. You can't argue against the different conclusion if you don't use the notions relevant to that conclusion. Doing so makes you irrelevant with regard that argument. Bring something else, if you have it. Or just move on. Just stop repeating your same mistakes, your same fallacies over and over again.
 
No it doesn't, it merely speaks to the set of available outcomes from the set of available inputs.
Yep.
?? If a "decision" could only ever have been one thing based on the inputs to the system, how is that decision "free"?
Now you are bringing in "ever" and "only" and "one thing" - more question begging.
If the decision is made from a variety of possibilities confronting the decider, and made according to their nature, dreams, memories, and new or triggered information available right up until the last second, and furthermore is carried out by their will under the direction of that decision, what - exactly, specifically - is the coercive constraint that removes the "free"?
It isn't the biochemistry.
Feelings, the observer, "you", do not have the allusion to operating in way that is contrary to the way it logically works in a deterministic iniverse,
Yes, you do. On the same logical level, involving the same patterns of brain activity.
that is, for a given set of inputs we are able to select between available options.
That's not an illusion if one correctly distinguishes inputs from outputs, identifies the "we" involved, describes the physical process of selection, etc. It's an observation.
The output is wholly determined by the input, and the process inbetween the input and output can only come to a single conclusion (output). Every time
So you are claiming that a given decision will remain the given decision no matter how many times you rewind it, the accomplishment by the will rewinding as well, and in short that physical events can be replayed at least in theory.

So? Nobody is arguing with you about that. That's been granted from page one.

btw: look at this, which if read carefully makes no sense - remind you of others posting on this forum?
do not have the allusion to operating in way that is contrary to the way it logically works in a deterministic iniverse
Suggestion: common cause.
 
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