Does time exist outside of consciousness?

Как мы определяем время? Мы сравниваем перемещение объектов в пространстве, т.е. анализируем. Но... мы не можем видеть в реальности один и тот же объект в разных местах пространства одновременно. Когда мы говорим, что что то движется, мы не видим этого в реальности, мы видим объект в одно время в одном месте. Всё остальное додумывает наше сознание. Оно создаёт образы (кстати, слово - образ, "в начале было слово"), которые сравнивает между собой и анализирует результат. Доказать, что что то существовало в реальности, мы не можем. Вы конечно же можете сказать: вот, у нас есть фотография или видеосъёмка, доказывающая существование чего то в прошлом - но нет, это не будет являться доказательством. Всё, изображённое на фото или видео - это уже не то, что было раньше. Частицы, из которых состоит изображение, не статичны, согласно современных представлений физики, они уже давно поменяли своё местоположение в пространстве. Мы принимаем на веру, что что то действительно существовало в прошлом. Что объекты действительно двигаются. Это результат анализа. Существует ли анализ вне сознания? Нет. Существует ли время вне сознания? ...
 
No .

Time is based on movement(s) of physical things .

Earth's Seasons . Because of changes in Earth's tilt , towards the Sun .

To the Universe time is irrelevant .
 
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ольга said:
Time as a result of the analysis and comparison of abstractions.
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??? Time as systems of measurement and intellectual contstructs certainly didn't exist in the world before such were invented by humans, space aliens, etc.

Time as a developmental sequence of co-existing different states of the universe may or may not be the case (beyond idea or scheme or description), most simplistically depicted by a block-universe or a growing block-universe model.

The experience of "time flowing" (if that even makes sense) does belong to consciousness -- though it might be better to refer to it as each cognitive state (personal thought and sensory perception) seemingly being replaced by the next one. Since -- excluding a minority of panpsychists or whatever applicable philosophical group -- the universe at large is usually regarded as mindless and therefore does not manifest itself as either a static appearance or changing appearances -- and does not identify and understand anything about itself conceptually.

Or to put another way: To even validate that one arbitrarily isolated and defined "moment" is different from another moment requires the "past or prior" state to be stored in memory and then compared to the supposed "current" state. In other words, a cognitive system or something approximating its functions must be involved, in order to detect the differences and provide internal judgment or "proof" that change is indeed the case.

Even in a presentism view of time (wherein only Now exists), there would be nothing "flowing" because no "future" state exists (for whatever) to transistion to. The current Now is simply obliterated by the new Now that replaces it. Presentism also requires extra invisible or metaphysical baggage for regulating that process, unless we deem that the lawful regularites and coherence of the world are just magically maintained from one change to the next ("Wheee! It just happens, no deeper explanation needed! Wowee!")
_
 
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C C said:
??? Time as systems of measurement and intellectual contstructs certainly didn't exist in the world before such were invented by humans, space aliens, etc.

Time as a developmental sequence of co-existing different states of the universe may or may not be the case (beyond idea or scheme or description), most simplistically depicted by a block-universe or a growing block-universe model.

The experience of "time flowing" (if that even makes sense) does belong to consciousness -- though it might be better to refer to it as each cognitive state (personal thought and sensory perception) seemingly being replaced by the next one. Since -- excluding a minority of panpsychists or whatever applicable philosophical group -- the universe at large is usually regarded as mindless and therefore does not manifest itself as either a static appearance or changing appearances -- and does not identify and understand anything about itself conceptually.

Or to put another way: To even validate that one arbitrarily isolated and defined "moment" is different from another moment requires the "past or prior" state to be stored in memory and then compared to the supposed "current" state. In other words, a cognitive system or something approximating its functions must be involved, in order to detect the differences and provide internal judgment or "proof" that change is indeed the case.

Even in a presentism view of time (wherein only Now exists), there would be nothing "flowing" because no "future" state exists (for whatever) to transistion to. The current Now is simply obliterated by the new Now that replaces it. Presentism also requires extra invisible or metaphysical baggage for regulating that process, unless we deem that the lawful regularites and coherence of the world are just magically maintained from one change to the next ("Wheee! It just happens, no deeper explanation needed! Wowee!")
_
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Как выглядит память? Допустим, мы провзаимодействовали с каким-нибудь объектом - что дальше? Каким образом и где это зафиксировано? В виде чего? Как мозг это считывает?
 
ольга said:
What does memory look like? Suppose we interacted with some object - what next? How and where is it recorded? In the form of what? How does the brain read this? ...... Как выглядит память? Допустим, мы провзаимодействовали с каким-нибудь объектом - что дальше? Каким образом и где это зафиксировано? В виде чего? Как мозг это считывает?
Click to expand...

Information retention is specifically realized in different ways. The technological components for memory storage and retrieval in computers are going to be different than the biological medium of a brain. Even the written word of ancient manuscripts was a form of it, and the novelty of an organism (human) acquiring a means of preserving data outside of its head or body. The Earth's environment saves information about the past, but requires sophisticated approaches for decoding what the fossils and other sedimentary items contingently mean. The electromagnetic spectrum traveling across space could arguably be construed as "memory" about historic cosmic events, albeit the observers and instruments on a planet are limited to capturing and processing what is currently passing by.

Of course, passive information retention in and of itself does not yield the rudimentary functions of a cognitive system. It's just a necessary aspect of the latter operational structure, and again could be realized in some very bizarre or unorthodox ways. But the inability of the below to "tell time" kind of illustrates what happens when straying far from a brain model and a semblance of a conventional memory system...

The brain holds no exclusive rights on how to create intelligence
https://www.thetransmitter.org/neur...clusive-rights-on-how-to-create-intelligence/

EXCERPTS: The introduction of the transformer architecture marked an important inflection point in the history of AI. Transformers are notable both in their surprising power and in how un-brain-like they are. They lack the recurrent connections of RNNs and operate in discontinuous time—that is, through discrete time steps without any “memory” of the states from the previous time step. They are also devoid of any form of working memory; they cleverly externalize working memory by iteratively increasing the length of the input at each iteration. Most notably perhaps, transformers lack any internal dynamics or ability to tell time...

[...] By design, transformers are, in a sense, timeless. To use an analogy with terms from the philosophy of time, transformers operate in a block universe where the past, present and future (in the case of bidirectional transformers) are all simultaneously available. By contrast, RNNs operate in a presentist universe in which only the current input is available, and computations unfold in continuous time.

The so-called attention mechanism of transformers sounds biological, but it does not really refer to what most cognitive neuroscientists would consider attention. It essentially assigns a value to the strength of the relationship between all word pairs in a sentence ... Furthermore, the implementation of the attention mechanism also lacks biological plausibility...
_
 
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C C said:
Information retention is specifically realized in different ways. The technological components for memory storage and retrieval in computers are going to be different than the biological medium of a brain. Even the written word of ancient manuscripts was a form of it, and the novelty of an organism (human) acquiring a means of preserving data outside of its head or body. The Earth's environment saves information about the past, but requires sophisticated approaches for decoding what the fossils and other sedimentary items contingently mean. The electromagnetic spectrum traveling across space could arguably be construed as "memory" about historic cosmic events, albeit the observers and instruments on a planet are limited to capturing and processing what is currently passing by.

Of course, passive information retention in and of itself does not yield the rudimentary functions of a cognitive system. It's just a necessary aspect of the latter operational structure, and again could be realized in some very bizarre or unorthodox ways. But the inability of the below to "tell time" kind of illustrates what happens when straying far from a brain model and a semblance of a conventional memory system...

The brain holds no exclusive rights on how to create intelligence
https://www.thetransmitter.org/neur...clusive-rights-on-how-to-create-intelligence/

EXCERPTS: The introduction of the transformer architecture marked an important inflection point in the history of AI. Transformers are notable both in their surprising power and in how un-brain-like they are. They lack the recurrent connections of RNNs and operate in discontinuous time—that is, through discrete time steps without any “memory” of the states from the previous time step. They are also devoid of any form of working memory; they cleverly externalize working memory by iteratively increasing the length of the input at each iteration. Most notably perhaps, transformers lack any internal dynamics or ability to tell time...

[...] By design, transformers are, in a sense, timeless. To use an analogy with terms from the philosophy of time, transformers operate in a block universe where the past, present and future (in the case of bidirectional transformers) are all simultaneously available. By contrast, RNNs operate in a presentist universe in which only the current input is available, and computations unfold in continuous time.

The so-called attention mechanism of transformers sounds biological, but it does not really refer to what most cognitive neuroscientists would consider attention. It essentially assigns a value to the strength of the relationship between all word pairs in a sentence ... Furthermore, the implementation of the attention mechanism also lacks biological plausibility...
_
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Я имела ввиду - как выглядит память у сознательных существ? Сам механизм. Ну, например, как зарубки на дереве в небиологических системах. А в биологических сознательных системах - как?
 
DaveC426913 said:
Well that's new...

View attachment 6631

@
ольга, I guess you and I won't be doing much more communicating...
Click to expand...
Here's another translation gizmo which was suggested to me. Seems like a lotta work to go back & forth copying & pasting like a sumbitch, though - then again, I am a lazy bastard...
One spiffy thing: It "detected" Russian as the language just by dropping in some text.

https://www.deepl.com/en/translator

It's rendering of post#9 in this thread:
I meant, what does memory look like in conscious beings? The mechanism itself. You know, like notches on a tree in non-biological systems. But in biological conscious systems, how?
 
If y'all have a Chrome browser on your devices, it's pretty simple. Hit the triple dots at top right, and two thirds of the way down the drop-down menu it says "translate." Click, and in two seconds or so, whole page is translated. About five seconds out of your life, total.
 
TheVat said:
If y'all have a Chrome browser on your devices, it's pretty simple. Hit the triple dots at top right, and two thirds of the way down the drop-down menu it says "translate." Click, and in two seconds or so, whole page is translated. About five seconds out of your life, total.
Click to expand...
What if I need that 5 seconds to confirm "War Plan R" and turn my key on the ICBM control panel ?
:tongue::tongue::tongue:


Plus - for some reason the translate menu item is "unclickable" when I'm on this page.
 
TheVat said:
If y'all have a Chrome browser on your devices, it's pretty simple. Hit the triple dots at top right, and two thirds of the way down the drop-down menu it says "translate." Click, and in two seconds or so, whole page is translated. About five seconds out of your life, total.
Click to expand...
We've sort of covered this, yes.

And that's what I was using that went splah is post 12. Chrome just could not translate the page for some reason. When I came back to it after ten minutes it had reconsidered.
 
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