Dragons and Sea Serpents Thread - merged threads on sea serpents and dragons..

[SarahEllard]

Hi everyone! I'm a 17 year old girl interested in biology and also consider myself a skeptic.

A couple of weeks ago, while browsing a biology thread on another website, I saw someone claiming to be brothers, posting to several social media websites. They said that they've seen 'Sea serpents' swimming in San Francisco Bay several times. They were adamant the animal they saw was a reptile and not an oarfish, and they stated they believe that dragons exist.

By ''dragons'', these people (often creationists) are referring to sea serpents. No, not sea-snakes, they're referring to the mythological, vertically-undulating dragons that live in the sea. Usually said to be anywhere from 100 feet long to 500 feet in length, and always described as reptiles.

When I ask why there's no photos, DNA, etc. these are some of their counterpoints;

1. ''Sea serpents are very rare, that's why there's no evidence.''

2. ''Sea serpents live on the ocean floor, which is unexplored.''

3. ''The giant squid and gorilla used to be considered mythical as well'' (not sure how true this is.)

4. ''There's been thousands of historical sightings of sea serpents, including one in 1962 where 4 boys were attacked and killed by one in twenty feet deep water, with land in sight!'' (I Googled this and yes, turns out there was a news story where 5 people went spearfishing, then a boy, Brian McCleary, 16, came back alone. He said that a sea serpent ate the other 4 and drew some Loch Ness Monster looking thingy.)

I am wondering what you think of these points, as sea serpents are a common subject in creationism, cryptozoology and other pseudoscience's. If dragons exist, and come close to the coasts where water is very shallow, such as Pensacola coast and SF bay, like these people are claiming, would we have evidence of them by now?

 

[origin]

would we have evidence of them by now?

Yes we would have. There are no dragons. Are there more species to find in the oceans? Yes there are, is one of those species going to be a dragon? No

 

[Write4U]

If dragons exist, and come close to the coasts where water is very shallow, such as Pensacola coast and SF bay, like these people are claiming, would we have evidence of them by now?

Good question. Yes we should have evidence by now. If we do not , they do not exist and there are plenty of known sea-creatures that attack people.

As to evidence of Giant Squid which live in very deep waters, all you need to look at is mature Sperm Whales who bear the scars of their gigantic battles with Giant Squid, their favorite food and adult "rite of passage".

How sperm whales hunt jumbo squid

The largest predators in the world, sperm whales, have a voracious appetite for jumbo squid, themselves a fearsome carnivore called "red devils" by fishermen. Yet how sperm whales hunt jumbo squid has remained a mystery.

In shallow waters, cruising sperm whales may present a long dragonlike profile.

The finding that male sperm whales have male friends bucks the long-standing assumption about sperm whale behavior. Photo by Francois Gohier/VWPics/Alamy Stock Photo

The Bro Bonds of Sperm Whales
Whether for survival or for friendship, male sperm whales travel the seas with the boys. by Annie Roth

Scientists have long believed that male sperm whales are among nature’s loneliest creatures. Unlike female sperm whales, which spend their entire lives living in matrilineal societies among their female kin, males get kicked out of their mothers’ pods once they reach sexual maturity and then spend the majority of their lives alone. Or so we thought.

A new study has found evidence that male sperm whales can develop strong, long-lasting bonds, forming friendships with other males that can last for at least five years.

https://www.hakaimagazine.com/news/the-bro-bonds-of-sperm-whales/

 

[Write4U]

There are scratches on the head and big scars on the body. The story of a sperm whale fighting a big squid is true
2021/05/31 04:32:06

In order to hunt squid, sperm whales must dive from 0 above sea level to 3 kilometers deep underwater.
●The white scratches on the top of the stranded sperm whale are all left by the big squid.

The pressure change during this period is the difference between 0 atmospheres and 300 atmospheres, and as of today, no nuclear submarine has been able to dive to a depth of 3 kilometers.

https://inf.news/en/animal/baca90422f9f243e8b383cd9c5a1f498.html

 

[exchemist]

Hi everyone! I'm a 17 year old girl interested in biology and also consider myself a skeptic.

A couple of weeks ago, while browsing a biology thread on another website, I saw someone claiming to be brothers, posting to several social media websites. They said that they've seen 'Sea serpents' swimming in San Francisco Bay several times. They were adamant the animal they saw was a reptile and not an oarfish, and they stated they believe that dragons exist.

By ''dragons'', these people (often creationists) are referring to sea serpents. No, not sea-snakes, they're referring to the mythological, vertically-undulating dragons that live in the sea. Usually said to be anywhere from 100 feet long to 500 feet in length, and always described as reptiles.

When I ask why there's no photos, DNA, etc. these are some of their counterpoints;

1. ''Sea serpents are very rare, that's why there's no evidence.''

2. ''Sea serpents live on the ocean floor, which is unexplored.''

3. ''The giant squid and gorilla used to be considered mythical as well'' (not sure how true this is.)

4. ''There's been thousands of historical sightings of sea serpents, including one in 1962 where 4 boys were attacked and killed by one in twenty feet deep water, with land in sight!'' (I Googled this and yes, turns out there was a news story where 5 people went spearfishing, then a boy, Brian McCleary, 16, came back alone. He said that a sea serpent ate the other 4 and drew some Loch Ness Monster looking thingy.)

I am wondering what you think of these points, as sea serpents are a common subject in creationism, cryptozoology and other pseudoscience's. If dragons exist, and come close to the coasts where water is very shallow, such as Pensacola coast and SF bay, like these people are claiming, would we have evidence of them by now?

To be honest, I'm wondering whether you are Frank Baker, Gaiagirl, Faceurchin, Jimmy-rigger , etc.

 

[RainbowSingularity]

I am wondering what you think of these points,

vertically-undulating dragons

I'm a 17 year old girl

"vertically-undulating" ?
please explain this

what has your age & gender got to do with the subject ?

• what age did you stop going to high school ?
• what country did you go to high school in ?

your religion & family wealth level is more relevant to the concept of level of knowledge
not age & gender

age and gender mean nothing without supporting subjective foundations
culture(what school system ?) USA UK Europe Asian etc ...
wealth
religion
schooling

you want to place "pre qualifiers" into your self definition to stream peoples responses
that's a false power control model

real skeptics follow the science, everything else is just noise

what mentality & IQ range are you looking to validate your science concepts with ?
other teenage girls ?
or adult scientific minds ?

1. ''Sea serpents are very rare, that's why there's no evidence.''

your wishing to have people answer in the affirmative to convince religious conservative creationists ?

where is the evidence of god ?
does god need evidence ?

2. ''Sea serpents live on the ocean floor, which is unexplored.''

did you se them on the sea floor ?
how did you get to the sea floor to see them ?

3. ''The giant squid and gorilla used to be considered mythical as well'' (not sure how true this is.)

did god create mermaids & unicorns ?
where are they ?
where is god ?

4. ''There's been thousands of historical sightings of sea serpents, including one in 1962 where 4 boys were attacked and killed by one in twenty feet deep water, with land in sight!'' (I Googled this and yes, turns out there was a news story where 5 people went spearfishing, then a boy, Brian McCleary, 16, came back alone. He said that a sea serpent ate the other 4 and drew some Loch Ness Monster looking thingy.)

false claim "'There's been thousands"
then faked with a singe fantasy story with no evidence
story of the missing boys from 50 years ago

how many boys go missing every year ?
where are all the other story's of boys being eaten by monsters ?

this is A-Typical evangelical brain washing propaganda
i get quite upset by it
it presses my buttons because it is used against children(including teens) as a weapon & normalized by soo many

jumbo squid

 

[DaveC426913]

"vertically-undulating" ?
please explain this

Vertically undulating:


as opposed to horizontally undulating:

 

[RainbowSingularity]

Vertically undulating:
View attachment 4292

as opposed to horizontally undulating:

ok thanks
so hard core conspiracy stuff
there is no need for vertical undulation in a sea creature with no fins
the only marine animals that use vertical undulation are whales & dolphins
dolphins are the most anatomically amazing animals with amazing almost magical muscle ability in their vertical muscle use
the scientific jury were still out on that one ast time i read up on it.
"storing energy" in muscles by reverse reflexology
very very advanced stuff

it comes very close to zero fossil fuel propulsion so most if not all corporates and business will not want such technology uncovered.

 

[kx000]

Dragons are highly evolved lizards and serpents, and humans evolve into angels.

 

[Write4U]

Suckers of the Giant Squid

Giant Squid.

This female giant squid is the larger of two on display in the Smithsonian's Sant Ocean Hall.(Don Hurlbert/Smithsonian Institution)

Based on this new method scientists believe the giant squid could reach lengths up to 66 feet (20 meters) long, making it potentially larger than the colossal squid, however, a real-life squid of this size has never been documented.

But does a big giant squid necessarily mean a strong one? If they were proportionally as strong as their smaller cousins, the Humboldt squid (Dosidicus gigas), giant squid would be VERY strong, says Smithsonian squid expert Clyde Roper. "However, their muscular structure, density and fluid composition indicate that they are not nearly that strong," he says. However, that doesn't make them sluggish weaklings. They have thousands of suckers working in unison on eight arms and two tentacles, with a rapidly-contracting mantle, to help capture and kill prey.

https://ocean.si.edu/ocean-life/invertebrates/giant-squid

 

[Michael 345]

Vertically undulating

Up and down ✓

horizontally undulating

slither

 

[sideshowbob]

Vertically undulating:

Vertically undulating doesn't seem like a very efficient means of locomotion in water. Don't sea snakes undulate horizontally? (Has to do with how their spines are articulated, I think.

Whales flap their tails up and down, fishes flap their tails side to side....

 

[DaveC426913]

Vertically undulating doesn't seem like a very efficient means of locomotion in water. Don't sea snakes undulate horizontally? (Has to do with how their spines are articulated, I think.

I assume the snake's movement is tied to its origin on land, and the fact that it spends time on the surface. I'm not sure a deep sea creature would find vertical undulation to be a problem.

Whales flap their tails up and down...

Whales don't have tails; they have legs.

 

[exchemist]

I assume the snake's movement is tied to its origin on land, and the fact that it spends time on the surface. I'm not sure a deep sea creature would find vertical undulation to be a problem.


Whales don't have tails; they have legs.

Eh?

 

[DaveC426913]

Whales don't have tails; they have legs.

Eh?

Hey, you know what? You're right.

The flukes of a whale are not actually its legs.

It's been so long since I studied biology that I conflated two unrelated facts:
1] Ceteceans have vestigial leg bones*.
2] Ceteceans' tails are not 'fins', they're 'flukes'.

I had conflated those two things to come up with 'ceteceans' tails are not tails, they're legs'. Which is wrong. Apologies to SSB.

Getting old is a bitch.

*

 

[candy]

Hi everyone! I'm a 17 year old girl interested in biology and also consider myself a skeptic.

A couple of weeks ago, while browsing a biology thread on another website, I saw someone claiming to be brothers, posting to several social media websites. They said that they've seen 'Sea serpents' swimming in San Francisco Bay several times. They were adamant the animal they saw was a reptile and not an oarfish, and they stated they believe that dragons exist.

By ''dragons'', these people (often creationists) are referring to sea serpents. No, not sea-snakes, they're referring to the mythological, vertically-undulating dragons that live in the sea. Usually said to be anywhere from 100 feet long to 500 feet in length, and always described as reptiles.

When I ask why there's no photos, DNA, etc. these are some of their counterpoints;

1. ''Sea serpents are very rare, that's why there's no evidence.''

2. ''Sea serpents live on the ocean floor, which is unexplored.''

3. ''The giant squid and gorilla used to be considered mythical as well'' (not sure how true this is.)

4. ''There's been thousands of historical sightings of sea serpents, including one in 1962 where 4 boys were attacked and killed by one in twenty feet deep water, with land in sight!'' (I Googled this and yes, turns out there was a news story where 5 people went spearfishing, then a boy, Brian McCleary, 16, came back alone. He said that a sea serpent ate the other 4 and drew some Loch Ness Monster looking thingy.)

I am wondering what you think of these points, as sea serpents are a common subject in creationism, cryptozoology and other pseudoscience's. If dragons exist, and come close to the coasts where water is very shallow, such as Pensacola coast and SF bay, like these people are claiming, would we have evidence of them by now?

I have read that dragons are highly valued on planet Pern.

 

[C C]

[...] They said that they've seen 'Sea serpents' swimming in San Francisco Bay several times. They were adamant the animal they saw was a reptile and not an oarfish [...] When I ask why there's no photos, DNA, etc. these are some of their counterpoints;

[...] 2. ''Sea serpents live on the ocean floor, which is unexplored.'' [...]

Marine reptiles have to come up for air, which would expose them to investigators far more often than legit benthic residents (who themselves have still been discovered despite their extreme environment).

Like sea turtles and sea snakes, some prehistoric marine reptiles might have had the capacity to stay underwater for hours. But living on an ocean bottom rather than near the surface or a mid-stratum is an additional challenge.

Even a rare transition from great depth to the lower pressures and higher temperatures of upper levels typically kills deep water dwellers. Which would make a speculative reptile's regular cycle of vertical migration from floor to surface all the more unrealistic.

There are non-reptilian, aquatic organisms reported to have adaptations for surviving ascents better than others. But a gradual adjustment process will cover 24 hours or much more longer. Rather than the circa 5 hours or so that might be the limit for an active, reptile's stint underwater via stored air and minimal skin assimilation of oxygen.

 

[sideshowbob]

Apologies to SSB.

No problem. I knew what (I thought) you meant. It's just as well I didn't bring up the difference in the way seals and sea lions swim.

Getting old is a bitch

Tell me about it. Looking out from inside my head I don't feel old - but trying to get up out of a chair I definitely feel old.

 

[Michael 345]

get up out of a chair

How many lurches do you need?

 

[RainbowSingularity]

Marine reptiles have to come up for air, which would expose them to investigators far more often than legit benthic residents (who themselves have still been discovered despite their extreme environment).

Like sea turtles and sea snakes, some prehistoric marine reptiles might have had the capacity to stay underwater for hours. But living on an ocean bottom rather than near the surface or a mid-stratum is an additional challenge.

Even a rare transition from great depth to the lower pressures and higher temperatures of upper levels typically kills deep water dwellers. Which would make a speculative reptile's regular cycle of vertical migration from floor to surface all the more unrealistic.

There are non-reptilian, aquatic organisms reported to have adaptations for surviving ascents better than others. But a gradual adjustment process will cover 24 hours or much more longer. Rather than the circa 5 hours or so that might be the limit for an active, reptile's stint underwater via stored air and minimal skin assimilation of oxygen.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg14519612-900-why-crocodiles-rarely-come-up-for-air/
(crack-pot assumption, crocodile stomach bile cures covid & erectile dysfunction when eaten at a 5 star restaurant or purchased off specific suppliers)


https://zooatlanta.org/how-do-crocodiles-stay-submerged-so-long/

Crocodilians have a four-chambered heart – just like people! And just like the circulatory system in people, the heart takes in deoxygenated blood from the body, sends it to the lungs to become oxygenated, the blood comes back to the heart, where it will then be pumped to the rest of the body. Pretty straightforward. But if you’re a crocodile submerged underwater, who cares if you have blood going to the lungs? After a short period of time underwater, the oxygen in the lungs is gone (crocodilians will typically expel air in order to sink, anyways). Crocodilians have a small opening called the Foramen of Panizza between their left and right aorta of the heart. Skipping all the technical jargon – it means that blood does NOT have to unnecessarily flow to the lungs when the crocodilian is underwater. The heart rate can fall to just 2–3 beats/minute, thus saving energy in the form of reduced cellular respiration. This same adaptation is interestingly also linked to efficient digestion. Oxygen-rich blood is also carried to areas of the body that need it the most.

As explained previously, cellular respiration (a type of metabolic reaction) is reduced due to a decrease in heart rate and the elimination of unnecessary blood flow to the lungs. However, crocodilians can carry out their most strenuous physical exertions by using no oxygen at all – a process called anaerobic respiration.
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is that a crocodilian in your pocket or is your man-bag a snapping turtle
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