Early technique in cutting stones

[river]

“ Originally Posted by KilljoyKlown
Did you read the article posted by river? ”

Trippy

Yes. I can't say I was terribly impressed by it though.

why

were talking about 100,000 thousandths of an inch and your not impressed ?

are you not capable of understanding or grasping what that means , the implications

perhaps you need time to grasp the significance of the precision they had

 

[Trippy]

thats not what I asked

That's what happens when you ask vague and ambiguous questions. But again, my point remains.

of granite from a quarry
I'm still in Eygpt , pyramids

Instead, workers would chip away at hard stone with tools made from comparatively harder types of stone. Such is the case with the extraction of granite, where dolerite balls were pounded against the rock's surface in order to cut into it. ​

Source

Source

As for how long it would take to quarry a block? :shrug:

 

[Trippy]

were talking about 100,000 thousandths of an inch and your not impressed ?

Not what I said.

I said I was unimpressed by the article.

Perhaps you need some time to understand what that means?

 

[river]

“ Originally Posted by river
of granite from a quarry
I'm still in Eygpt , pyramids ”

Instead, workers would chip away at hard stone with tools made from comparatively harder types of stone. Such is the case with the extraction of granite, where dolerite balls were pounded against the rock's surface in order to cut into it.

if you went to the link that I supplied , a few posts ago , you would have relised that a , " round ball " of diorite cannot give any precision in the squareness of the sides

 

[Trippy]

This:

if you went to the link that I supplied , a few posts ago , you would have relised that a , " round ball " of diorite cannot give any precision in the squareness of the sides

Is a misrepresntation of what I have actually said.

Perhaps you should take some time to re-read what I have said, for example this:

Show me anything that suggests a requirement for a 70 ton block to be anything other than rough hewn and then subsequently worked?

And understand how it relates to what I just posted.

And go back, and re-read the links I provided as sources, and understand how the fact that, for example, the red granite quarries are right next to silicified sandstone quarries in an area that has been occupied for 20,000 years to make grinding stones (you know, the things you would use to finish a rough hewn granite block).

Besides which, we have actual evidence that is actually how the egyptians worked granite - I even posted a picture of an unfinished obelisk that precisely supports this theory.

What you're doing is pointing at a finished product and demanding that it be produced, fully formed within the quarry, while ignoring the simple fact that even today, producing things still requires multiple steps.

Incidentally, it's Dolerite not Diorite. They are very different materials

 

[river]

This:

“ Originally Posted by river
if you went to the link that I supplied , a few posts ago , you would have relised that a , " round ball " of diorite cannot give any precision in the squareness of the sides ”

Is a misrepresntation of what I have actually said.

Perhaps you should take some time to re-read what I have said, for example this:

perhaps

but you still have to account for the precision

 

[wlminex]

perhaps

but you still have to account for the precision

Revisit my post:

"r-e-p-e-t-i-t-i-o-u-s . . . . . s-l-o-w . . . . rubbing of 'rocks-on-rocks' will create flat (and tight-fit, matched) surfaces on each half of the rock pair . . . . a mutual grinding, abrasive process

 

[adoucette]

perhaps

but you still have to account for the precision

What precision?

The article doesn't give any specific precision for the rocks.

 

[river]

“ Originally Posted by Trippy
Show me anything that suggests a requirement for a 70 ton block to be anything other than rough hewn and then subsequently worked? ”

And understand how it relates to what I just posted.

And go back, and re-read the links I provided as sources, and understand how the fact that, for example, the red granite quarries are right next to silicified sandstone quarries in an area that has been occupied for 20,000 years to make grinding stones (you know, the things you would use to finish a rough hewn granite block).

using what material

Besides which, we have actual evidence that is actually how the egyptians worked granite - I even posted a picture of an unfinishedobelisk that precisely supports this theory.

so you have a piece of the actual granite that Egyptians used ?

What you're doing is pointing at a finished product and demanding that it be produced, fully formed within the quarry, while ignoring the simple fact that even today, producing things still requires multiple steps.

yeah kind of problematic isn't it

" even today takes multiple steps "

so what your saying is that they were on the same level as we are now

Incidentally, it's Dolerite not Diorite. They are very different materials

noted

 

[Trippy]

perhaps

but you still have to account for the precision

As has been pointed out, multiple times, rubbing two rock against each other will produce two paralell equally smooth faces.

The only thing that's required is the ability to rub the two pieces of granite against each other.

 

[adoucette]

As has been pointed out, multiple times, rubbing two rock against each other will produce two paralell equally smooth faces.

The only thing that's required is the ability to rub the two pieces of granite against each other.

Trippy, note the wording of the paragraph and how River has misused what it says:

The following series of photographs were taken inside the Serapeum on August 27, 2001. Those taken of me inside one of these huge boxes show me inspecting the squareness between a 27 ton lid and the inside surface of the granite box on which it sits. The precision square I used was calibrated to .00005 inch (that is 5/100,000 of an inch) using a Jones & Lamson comparitor.

The SQUARE he is using has been calibrated to that level of precision.
Nothing in the article shows how close rocks are to being that square.

 

[river]

“ Originally Posted by river
perhaps

but you still have to account for the precision

As has been pointed out, multiple times, rubbing two rock against each other will produce two paralell equally smooth faces.

The only thing that's required is the ability to rub the two pieces of granite against each other.

how so ?

if both of the pieces of granite are of equal hardness how does the grinding happen ?

 

[Trippy]

using what material

Finishing could be achieved either with other pieces of granite, or it could be achieved with the nearby silicified sandstone, which has approximately the same hardness as granite (or some granites).

so you have a piece of the actual granite that Egyptians used ?

I posted a picture of an unfinished Obelisk that was to be 43m long, but they abandoned it late in the game because they found a crack.

yeah kind of problematic isn't it

" even today takes multiple steps "

so what your saying is that they were on the same level as we are now

No, that's not what I'm saying in the slightest.

I am simply saying that it was manufactured as a multi stage process.

Baking bread is a multi stage process.
Brewing beer is a multi stage process.
Making a fishook from a bone is a multi stage process.

In this case, all I am saying is that it was constructed as a multistage process.
First you extract the rough hewn, raw material.
Then you can finish it.
You can even further refine the finishing if you choose to.

It is simply a matter of how much time and effort you're willing to put into it, and that is simply a reflection of how important precision is to you at a spiritual or philosophical level.

 

[adoucette]

how so ?

if both of the pieces of granite are of equal hardness how does the grinding happen ?

LOL

 

[Stoniphi]

It is simply a matter of how much time and effort you're willing to put into it, and that is simply a reflection of how important precision is to you at a spiritual or philosophical level.

Agreed.

From Wiki:

Diorite is an extremely hard rock, making it difficult to carve and work with. It is so hard that ancient civilizations (such as Ancient Egypt) used diorite balls to work granite. Its hardness, however, also allows it to be worked finely and take a high polish, and to provide a durable finished work.

One comparatively frequent use of diorite was for inscription, as it is easier to carve in relief than in three-dimensional statuary. Perhaps the most famous diorite work extant is the Code of Hammurabi, inscribed upon a 2.23m (7ft 4in) pillar of black diorite. The original can be seen today in Paris' Musée du Louvre.[3] The use of diorite in art was most important among very early Middle Eastern civilizations such as Ancient Egypt, Babylonia, Assyria and Sumer. It was so valued in early times that the first great Mesopotamian empire -- the Empire of Sargon of Akkad -- listed the taking of diorite as a purpose of military expeditions.

Although one can find diorite art from later periods, it became more popular as a structural stone and was frequently used as pavement due to its durability. Diorite was used by both the Inca and Mayan civilizations, but mostly for fortress walls, weaponry, etc. It was especially popular with medieval Islamic builders. In later times, diorite was commonly used as cobblestone; today many diorite cobblestone streets can be found in England, Guernsey and Scotland, and scattered throughout the world in such places as Ecuador and China. Although diorite is rough-textured in nature, its ability to take a polish can be seen in the diorite steps of St. Paul's Cathedral, London, where centuries of foot traffic have polished the steps to a sheen.

South American natives used garnets and sapphires to work other stones. A sapphire point can be affixed to a wooden handle by the usual technique of splitting the end of the wood, inserting the stone, wrapping it in with leather or string, then saturating the bindings with copal or similar. A device similar to the small bow that was used to start fires was used with garnet sand to drill very small holes in jade - another extremely hard stone to work. The same technique would work quite well for drilling larger holes in another stone - especially something as easy to work as red sandstone. (Yes I have worked it myself)

I found complete sapphire crystals (hardness 9.5) in a feldspar matrix at a place called the Craigmont outside of Bancroft, Ontario. Granite is not that hard to work either, the is a big granite quarry in Barre, Vermont where huge blocks of "Barre Grey" are pulled daily for various projects all around the world.

 

[Trippy]

how so ?

if both of the pieces of granite are of equal hardness how does the grinding happen ?

Same reason it happens in nature - if I take two things of equal hardness, and rub them against each other for long enough, the wear each other down.

It's the same basic principle as Tumble finishing (but it didn't occur to me to consider the use of sand and silt between the blocks, but now that I think about it, it makes perfect sense to do so).

 

[river]

“ Originally Posted by river
using what material ”

Finishing could be achieved either with other pieces of granite, or it could be achieved with the nearby silicified sandstone, which has approximately the same hardness as granite (or some granites).

is this sandstone as hard as the granite used in the pyramids ?

 

[Trippy]

Agreed.

South American natives used garnets and sapphires to work other stones. A sapphire point can be affixed to a wooden handle by the usual technique of splitting the end of the wood, inserting the stone, wrapping it in with leather or string, then saturating the bindings with copal or similar. A device similar to the small bow that was used to start fires was used with garnet sand to drill very small holes in jade - another extremely hard stone to work. The same technique would work quite well for drilling larger holes in another stone - especially something as easy to work as red sandstone. (Yes I have worked it myself)

I found complete sapphire crystals (hardness 9.5) in a feldspar matrix at a place called the Craigmont outside of Bancroft, Ontario. Granite is not that hard to work either, the is a big granite quarry in Barre, Vermont where huge blocks of "Barre Grey" are pulled daily for various projects all around the world.

Thanks for that nice to see some (more) common sense being introduced into the conversation.

Yeah, I don't know why that didn't occur to me. All you need is some reasonable outcrops of Garnet schists (for example) and bob's you're uncle, but it's the same basic principle I mentioned with the quartz.

Certainly the Andes, being as tectonicly active as they are, would seem to be a reasonable place to look for such things.

 

[river]

Agreed. From Wiki: South American natives used garnets and sapphires to work other stones. A sapphire point can be affixed to a wooden handle by the usual technique of splitting the end of the wood, inserting the stone, wrapping it in with leather or string, then saturating the bindings with copal or similar. A device similar to the small bow that was used to start fires was used with garnet sand to drill very small holes in jade - another extremely hard stone to work. The same technique would work quite well for drilling larger holes in another stone - especially something as easy to work as red sandstone. (Yes I have worked it myself) I found complete sapphire crystals (hardness 9.5) in a feldspar matrix at a place called the Craigmont outside of Bancroft, Ontario. Granite is not that hard to work either, the is a big granite quarry in Barre, Vermont where huge blocks of "Barre Grey" are pulled daily for various projects all around the world.

but the diorite were balls of

not square

 

[Trippy]

is this sandstone as hard as the granite used in the pyramids ?

Silicified sandstone has a hardness of 7 (it's quartz sand embedded in a matrix of quartz).

Granite has multiple minerals with hardness ranging from as low as 2, to as high as 7.

The red colour of Aswan Granite comes from a high content of Orthoclase which has a hardness of 6, suggesting the granite has a hardness of between 6 and 7, so it seems reasonable to suppose that yes, silicified sandstone would be sufficiently hard to polish Aswan granite.