Everyday sexism

[LaurieAG]

Nothing.

She knows her customers and they are clearly comfortable with how she addresses them, regardless of their sex.

No she doesn't know that many of her customers and you are avoiding the question, would you say that you were offended by her behaviour and say something or would you just let it slide?

 

[paddoboy]

You can't look at the previous page?

Your words:

Yes, my words, meaning exactly as I said...no hidden agenda, no sublime messages, no anything to support your crusade. Scraping the bottom of that barrow again Bells?

Again, you admitted you do not refer to middle aged bosses, nor do you find such "banter" appropriate in the workplace..

I'm speaking of bosses addressing their junior workers that they know...wanna try again Bells?

While ignoring the fact that you are forcing such banter in their workplace.

Nup, sorry Bells, forcing nothing, just normal everyday common banter in passing, and which obviously is also reciprocated without any bruised feelings of insults on either side.

Still much younger than you.

Yep, 45ish and a lovely Lady who appreciated immensely the joviality of our banter, and reciprocated along with the help she gave me.

In her workplace.

Yes, obviously.

As Wegs pointed out in that thread way back when, that your behaviour is flirting.

Wegs suggested it could be interpreted as flirting....It wasn't.

It is not appropriate.

It was entirely casual banter and appropriate at the time.

And what you need to learn is that you objectify these much younger women and diminish them to "love" or pet names in the course of their employ and if they dare express displeasure, you are the type to contact management. You flirt with them, at your age! And you expect them to flirt back and act as though they enjoy it and they are forced to.

Wrong Bells, I'm expecting nothing other then normal casual banter which was on all the occasions I mentioned. You really need to stop making such silly vindictive allegations Bells.

Is it really that hard, do you really consider it an extreme, to not objectify women like this? It's not a matter of stance. You pick and choose who you address this way. You admitted yourself you would not do it to someone who was middle age and in a senior position. You target the women who are literally not allowed to call you a perve and tell you to bugger off.

No, they are simply all repeated vindictive lies on your part...If I needed to approach a manager, the same banter would ensure.

The irony is that you crack the absolute shits when people refer to you as pet names (as we have experienced), but you have no qualms in doing it to women, and doing it in a manner that diminishes them and their role in the course of their employ.

Are you fair dinkum Bells?? You've called me a few names already and I have simply dismissed them due to the crusade you are pushing and the anger you are showing.
I actually feel rather sorry for you.

You're an older dude coming up to a young woman and asking her where she's hiding the extra virgin olive oil. That, by every definition, is sidling up to her. The moment you asked her where she was hiding the extra virgin olive oil.. You became the creep.

No it isn't Bells, and as usual I was practising social distancing as I always do...Don't be bloody silly Bells.

Because that is her job!

Yes, and her job doesn't entail me sidling up to her and flirting as per the lies you like to present, and if that was the case, she would do what any self respecting assistant would do...report me to a Supervisor, not withstanding of course your fabricated excuses as to why she wouldn't.

Because she is not allowed to tell you that it was a problem.

Bullshit!

I linked you studies and reports of how these young women have to swap name tags because of how older men sleaze onto them.

And of all manners that you could have asked her, you went with the creep one.

Nothing creepy at all, just common everyday banter, and I probably could also raise reports supporting my stance.
PS: The young assistant in question is back again...saw her today and she smiled and asked cash or card Sir? I said cash Luv thanks and had to wait for a free automated cashier/ When I finished she said have a good day...I said you to! No dirty childish minds around thankfully to misinterpret.

I would strongly suggest you get a mirror and stare long and hard into it. Given you are one of the people report the most for abusive and offensive behaviour..

No mirror needed Bells, I just give bullies what they give me.

Wegs is too polite. Trust me, she was probably as creeped out as the rest of us by your behaviour.

Wegs appears to be a Lady, and no, I don't trust you.

The moment she pointed out how your behaviour was flirting and not appropriate, you stopped responding to her queries, because she wanted to know why you did it.

Wegs made some comments not unsupported childish allegations. She hasn't responded that much here anyway.

You only do it to the women who can't tell you that you make them uncomfortable or that your approach is not appropriate.

Yes, I conduct a survey first and ask who would mind!

You don't refer to men as "love". You refer to them as "mate". Men who are equal to you.. "Love" is a pet name. You are using that in her place of employment, where you are in a position of power as the customer.

Love is a pet name, it is also a name used in common banter between adults, male and female, young and old. The best example is the two paramedics officers...one young, one middle aged. Of course I don't refer to men as Love, in that respect Love is gender specific as mate is gender specific generally. So, I'll keep using it.

Consider what the response would be if an older gentleman walked up to your young granddaughter and asked her where she was hiding the extra virgin olive oil..

Most probably wouldn't mean a thing for either the man, the grandaughter or myself. Mostly it is said in passing without any second thought or sublime message.

It's one of the reasons my father was adamantly against my ever working in retail while in school and at uni. Because he did not want me to have to deal with that kind of rubbish from men like you.

I would question the town morals in that case.

Oh look, more examples.

Goodo!

Yeah, did you like that one?
You havn't mentioned the old Lady around 70ish with the walking frame who addressed me as Luv and asked to get in the queue ahead of me as she only had one item...poor dear, i said yeah OK love no probs!!

 

[Bells]

No she doesn't know that many of her customers and you are avoiding the question, would you say that you were offended by her behaviour and say something or would you just let it slide?

I did answer it.. But you chose to take my comments out of context and left out the rest.

Nothing.

She knows her customers and they are clearly comfortable with how she addresses them, regardless of their sex.

And if they are not, they are in a position to tell her otherwise.

You do understand the difference in power dynamic here, yes?

She is the owner of the store. Customers who are not comfortable with it are in a position to tell her so.

Don't forget, paddoboy does not aim his comments at management or bosses, or people who are middle age apparently - and apparently not in places of employment, unless it's the woman's employment and then he just does not care.

But I'll ask you again, do you understand the difference in the power dynamic from the store owner in your example to say, the young female supermarket clerk who is called "luv" and who cannot ask the customer to stop lest she loses her job?

Yes, my words, meaning exactly as I said...no hidden agenda, no sublime messages, no anything to support your crusade. Scraping the bottom of that barrow again Bells?

Paddoboy, you flirt with your store and bank clerks and you do it because you know they are in no position to ask you to stop. You refuse to accept that this is not appropriate behaviour in their work place and that it could very well be construed as harassment.

Your behaviour would not be acceptable in a place of work, yet you think you should be allowed to continue doing it where these young women are working.

That's on you. Your agenda is to continue to harass young women in their place of work because you can get away with it because you know these younger women cannot report you.

That is not the norm, nor is it acceptable. As for the rest of your utter crap, I am tired of reading the same goddamn rubbish from you where you try to justify your unacceptable behaviour.

If you were working and pulled this stunt at work, you'd be disciplined and if you kept doing it, you'd be dismissed. Of that I can assure you.

It should go without saying that using terms like “chicks” and “babes” to refer to female colleagues and employees is inappropriate. But what about “ladies”, “girls”, “sweetheart” or “love”?

There’s a plethora of terms used to refer to women which can infantilise, undermine and sexualise women. This can be the case regardless of whether they are said with warmth and friendliness, and without malicious intention. Use of such language may delegitimise a woman’s contribution in the workplace and make them feel demoralised and disrespected.

On the other hand, consider the way male gendered language is used. “Chairman”, “manpower”, and “IT guy” roll off the tongue to refer to men and women collectively. Similarly, while “guys” is often used to refer to a group collectively, regardless of gender, “girls” would never be used the same way. Further, these terms attribute male characteristics to tasks and roles, excluding or ignoring women’s involvement or contribution.

Legal risks
There are several legal risks that arise from the use of gendered language in the workplace.

Firstly, using sexualising terms like “babe” could form the basis of a sexual harassment claim, as using such language may constitute unwelcome conduct of a sexual nature. In 2006, a NSW tribunal found that calling a female employee “babe” and “honey” constituted sexual harassment. These days, it’s difficult to envisage circumstances where calling your female colleague “babe” during a meeting or at the office would be welcome.

The consistent use of gendered language could also precipitate an unlawful discrimination complaint.
[https://www.hrmonline.com.au/section/legal/sweetheart-talk-gendered-language/]

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Terms of endearment are defined as an example of sexual harassment by the U.S. Department of the Interior’s Office of Civil Rights, which cites “honey,” “dear” and “sweetheart” among the unprofessional expressions, even if the speaker means no harm in saying them. “The effect is the primary issue rather than intent,” it explains. “Even if the person ‘means nothing to you’ or you have ‘used the term for years’ you should be aware that such expressions are inappropriate.”

The problem is that these words make people feel disrespected and uncomfortable – and it happens most often to women by men. A survey by U.K. market research site OnePoll found that almost three-quarters of women think pet names in the office are “unacceptable,” while one in four say it makes them angry. The most hated terms were calling them “love,” followed by “darlin,” “mate” and “hun.” And the women said male bosses and colleagues were most likely to address them this way.
[https://www.marketwatch.com/story/its-never-ok-to-address-a-woman-this-way-2018-08-23]​

I don't particularly care how casual you think the banter is.

These women are in their workplace. They are complete strangers to you. Respect their position and refer to them appropriately.

You target them, flirt with them, refer to them by inappropriate pet names because it makes you feel good. You get off on it, that much is clear given your boasting and how in the past you'd start ranting about your male prowess when this subject matter would come up.

You diminish them to being your pet, your object.

Terms of endearment are a kindness bestowed on people we love. It’s not a means to exert your power or authority over someone.

Today, I watched a video of preacher Kenneth Copeland being interviewed by a female reporter from Inside Edition. She was poised and professional. She was well prepared for the interview and asked incredibly pointed questions in a very non-threatening way.

Almost more so that the answers the preacher provided, I found it upsetting and aggravating how he talked to her. He complimented her on her eyes. He actually said to her, “Gimme a chance to talk for a minute, sweetheart, and I’ll explain it to you.” He called her “baby.” He goes as far, at the end of the interview, to kiss her hand that she worked a solid minute to pull away.

This is what happens to women every damn day and it has to stop.

It’s a matter of respect. A pet name connotates a certain level of familiarity that, when absent, comes across as nothing more than a sexist way of keeping women in their place.

When men call us “sweetheart” and we don’t have that level of familiarity, it disrespects us and the relationship. I am neither your wife, your girlfriend, your daughter, nor am I your sister. I expect to be spoken to in a way that is commensurate with the level of my relationship with a man. “Vanessa” will do just fine.
[https://medium.com/fearless-she-wrote/stop-calling-women-in-the-workplace-by-pet-names-b5b3d655a760]​

It's not acceptable. If you were working with these women and did that, it would not even be legal.

 

[paddoboy]

I did answer it.. But you chose to take my comments out of context and left out the rest.

Now there we have a another case of the Pot calling the Kettle black!

She is the owner of the store. Customers who are not comfortable with it are in a position to tell her so.

Besides the fact that I would bet my house no customer has expressed any discomfort with such banter, it is obviously another cop out.

Don't forget, paddoboy does not aim his comments at management or bosses, or people who are middle age apparently - and apparently not in places of employment, unless it's the woman's employment and then he just does not care.

You can persist with that inferred lie as long as you like Bells, and I'll keep pointing out your error. I will approach anyone appropriatley, when I see fit, young, old, male, female, senior management, or store assistant, with the everyday casual banter that so far has not offended anyone.

But I'll ask you again, do you understand the difference in the power dynamic from the store owner in your example to say, the young female supermarket clerk who is called "luv" and who cannot ask the customer to stop lest she loses her job?

That is absolute crap. If anyone sidles up to a young female store assistant, and acts inappropriately, then she has and should report to a supervisor. But of course that interferes with your agenda here doesn't it?

Paddoboy, you flirt with your store and bank clerks and you do it because you know they are in no position to ask you to stop. You refuse to accept that this is not appropriate behaviour in their work place and that it could very well be construed as harassment.

Nup, I do not and never have, and what you construe it to be 1000,s of kms away, says it all about your crusade here.

I don't particularly care how casual you think the banter is.

These women are in their workplace. They are complete strangers to you. Respect their position and refer to them appropriately.

Would you like a little cheese with that whine?

Your behaviour would not be acceptable in a place of work, yet you think you should be allowed to continue doing it where these young women are working.

Í'm not even sure that that is true. But again to correct you, the casual banter applies to all, young, middle aged, old, male or female.

That's on you. Your agenda is to continue to harass young women in their place of work because you can get away with it because you know these younger women cannot report you.

That is not the norm, nor is it acceptable. As for the rest of your utter crap, I am tired of reading the same goddamn rubbish from you where you try to justify your unacceptable behaviour.

Nothing is on me Bells. it is all common day banter, that you chose to twist and mangle to suit your own agenda. The case with the female copper the other day, and her junior male assistant.
The poor old woman calling me Luv and requesting to get in the queue ahead of me.
Here's another lo and behold!! Took the Mrs up to pick up and help with a new vacuum cleaner yesterday arvo. [I rarely shop with her, you know women never being able to make up their minds ] and after paying for it, she said [again lo and behold!] to the young male shop assistant, "thanks Luv"
As we walked out she asked me what I was smiling for.

You are entitled to believe your standards Bells, but you need to stop commenting and making accusations on other's standards and the many factual examples that I have listed. They happen every day...it is normal every day banter without a hint of sexual innuendo, hidden agendas, or sublime messages. Why I even believe I heard it on the TV news last night, but wasn't listening that intentively.
If it wasn't the norm...if it wasn't acceptable...if it did offend, I would stop.
But it is the norm and doesn't offend.

 

[Bells]

Now there we have a another case of the Pot calling the Kettle black!

Only if you cannot read.

Besides the fact that I would bet my house no customer has expressed any discomfort with such banter, it is obviously another cop out.

That is beside the point. She owns the store. If someone was uncomfortable, they are in a position to tell her and she is not at risk of being fired.

If the young store clerk told you, the customer that she was uncomfortable with your flirting, she could be fired, so she is not in a position to tell you that your asking her where she was hiding the extra virgin olive oil was creepy as hell and really not appropriate. And believe me, it is not appropriate to ask her where she was hiding it..

You can persist with that inferred lie as long as you like Bells, and I'll keep pointing out your error. I will approach anyone appropriatley, when I see fit, young, old, male, female, senior management, or store assistant, with the everyday casual banter that so far has not offended anyone.

And this is where you get caught out repeatedly, given you said yourself that you clearly said in the past that it is not ai ed at middle aged bosses and that such behaviour would not be acceptable in the workplace.

Those stores, banks, etc, is their workplace.

What? You only give respect in your workplace but not in the workplaces these women work in?

The sheer level of sexism is pathetic. Your behaviour is not acceptable. If you were an employee speaking to other female employees, your behaviour would not be legal.

That is absolute crap. If anyone sidles up to a young female store assistant, and acts inappropriately, then she has and should report to a supervisor. But of course that interferes with your agenda here doesn't it?

What is absolute crap and completely inappropriate is that you, a man in his 70's, walked up to a young woman and asked asked her where she was hiding the extra virgin olive oil.

In her workplace and she is forced to smile and take you to the aisle where the oil is.

This is the kind of revolting act that if my dad was within hearing range would see him spin around with a "oh come on!" response in disgust. It's the kind of behaviour that if her family member were within range, could see you slapped, punched or shoved and called a pervert.

Your double entendre in your "banter" and responses is equally not appropriate or acceptable.

Nup, I do not and never have, and what you construe it to be 1000,s of kms away, says it all about your crusade here.

Sleazy men often refuse to admit they are sleazy.

The reason women are forced to live with this kind of behaviour towards them in their workplace, is because of men like you.

You get away with it because you are the customer. Unfortunately, the women you keep flirting with in their workplaces are not allowed to get away from you. And you actually once tried to suggest that they are consenting adults to your behaviour..

And neither is it any reason whatsoever to drop/ cease common everyday banter between consenting adults, young and old, men and women.

Sick. Repulsive. Perverted.

These women are not consenting adults.

A lot of them are probably minors.

They are in their workplace and has been linked numerous times, their speaking out could result in their being fired.

They are forced by way of fear of unemployment, to smile at you when you start flirting with them and address them inappropriately.

Would you like a little cheese with that whine?

Stating fact is not whining.

Í'm not even sure that that is true. But again to correct you, the casual banter applies to all, young, middle aged, old, male or female.

As I noted above, sleazy men like you know who to target. If you pulled that crap in the workplace, you would be out the door.

Nothing is on me Bells. it is all common day banter, that you chose to twist and mangle to suit your own agenda. The case with the female copper the other day, and her junior male assistant.
The poor old woman calling me Luv and requesting to get in the queue ahead of me.
Here's another lo and behold!! Took the Mrs up to pick up and help with a new vacuum cleaner yesterday arvo. [I rarely shop with her, you know women never being able to make up their minds ] and after paying for it, she said [again lo and behold!] to the young male shop assistant, "thanks Luv"
As we walked out she asked me what I was smiling for.

You are entitled to believe your standards Bells, but you need to stop commenting and making accusations on other's standards and the many factual examples that I have listed. They happen every day...it is normal every day banter without a hint of sexual innuendo, hidden agendas, or sublime messages. Why I even believe I heard it on the TV news last night, but wasn't listening that intentively.
If it wasn't the norm...if it wasn't acceptable...if it did offend, I would stop.
But it is the norm and doesn't offend.

You just keep making my point for me.

You are sexist.

It isn't banter. It is inappropriate in their workplace. It is disrespectful, not to mention sleazy.

 

[wegs]

Paddoboy, it’s not unusual for employees at a company to smile and be friendly to all customers, even those who say flirty/inappropriate things. Many women feel it’s simply easier to tolerate the “banter” than stir the pot. This is largely what #metoo is about - giving a collective voice to women who have felt the need to go with the flow, and have stayed silent when they didn’t like the crude jokes/harassment at work, unwanted flirty behavior from strangers, or being called cutesy names by customers, to keep their jobs. I mean, if you’re waiting for these women to tell you to “shut up” or roll their eyes or some other such thing, that probably won’t happen because they may be afraid to lose their job.

I understand paddoboy that you see things a certain way - that in your mind, it’s acceptable and harmless.
But, it’s probably not as welcomed as you may think because they’re in a compromised spot, if this banter largely goes on at their workplace. Just food for thought.

 

[wegs]

Just out of curiosity, paddoboy - if one of these women’s fathers or significant others were to angrily approach you one day (after hearing about your “casual banter”) asking if you’ve been calling their daughters/SO’s cutesy names or flirting with them, what would you say?

Would you apologize or would you go on about how “everyone’s doing it?” There’s no harm in it, etc...?

That day may come, you might want to be ready. lol

 

[paddoboy]

Only if you cannot read.

But I can read, only too well.

That is beside the point. She owns the store. If someone was uncomfortable, they are in a position to tell her and she is not at risk of being fired.

No, it is the point! Because the point you're trying to push is not valid in anywhere near a proportionate of cases..

If the young store clerk told you, the customer that she was uncomfortable with your flirting, she could be fired, so she is not in a position to tell you that your asking her where she was hiding the extra virgin olive oil was creepy as hell and really not appropriate. And believe me, it is not appropriate to ask her where she was hiding it..

The first part is absolute crap that she would be too afraid of reporting me if it was the case. The hiding part is joviality. I use it all the time when I can't find something..."How mate, where do you hide the sauce?" 'scuse me Luv, where are you hiding the paper towels?'

And this is where you get caught out repeatedly, given you said yourself that you clearly said in the past that it is not ai ed at middle aged bosses and that such behaviour would not be acceptable in the workplace.

Or perhaps its you getting caught out? Again if it was a boss that was present, male or female, nothing would change, but bosses you see, or managers, don't frequent around the aisles as much as the ordinary shop assistants.

Your double entendre in your "banter" and responses is equally not appropriate or acceptable.

Nup, no double entendre or hidden agenda or any sublime message...I needed some extra Virgin Olive oil!

Sleazy men often refuse to admit they are sleazy.

Yeah and that can be applied to any category you care to lump anyone in including yourself. eg: Feminazis, religious ratbags, conspiracy nutters etc etc etc

You get away with it because you are the customer.

Rubbish...I get away with it, because essentially, there is/was nothing to get away with.

Sick. Repulsive. Perverted.

In your opinion, and your tiny world perhaps, and even then I doubt it is anywhere near the extent you are trying to portray...Perhaps why this crusade.

These women are not consenting adults.

A lot of them are probably minors.

In one case, yes a minor, the rest obviously [well obviously to most] not.

They are in their workplace and has been linked numerous times, their speaking out could result in their being fired.

They are forced by way of fear of unemployment, to smile at you when you start flirting with them and address them inappropriately.


Stating fact is not whining.

It's not fact Bells, and that's the point I'm making with the factual examples I have given including the Mrs.

As I noted above, sleazy men like you know who to target. If you pulled that crap in the workplace, you would be out the door.

Note whatever you like Bells...most of it is lies anyway, and misinterpretation.

You just keep making my point for me.

That's funny

You are sexist.

It isn't banter. It is inappropriate in their workplace. It is disrespectful, not to mention sleazy.

No, I'm not sexist, and it is common everyday banter.

 

[paddoboy]

Just out of curiosity, paddoboy - if one of these women’s fathers or significant others were to angrily approach you one day (after hearing about your “casual banter”) asking if you’ve been calling their daughters/SO’s cutesy names or flirting with them, what would you say?

Would you apologize or would you go on about how “everyone’s doing it?” There’s no harm in it, etc...?

That day may come, you might want to be ready. lol

wegs...have you read all the examples I have given? the final one yesterday arvo with the Mrs?
Let me again say, if anyone objected to how I address them as Luv, then I would cease. Isn't that good enough?
Bells can twist and turn and obfuscate all she likes, she knows not what she is talking about and wasn't there.
Did you read the account with the bank teller? you know, the one that laughed heartedly and replied jovially.
What about the 70ish old woman with the walking frame that said "hey luv, I only have one item, can I get in the queue in front of you?"
The female Police Office wegs...the paramedics wegs, that called the wife darling and me Luv.

Anyway I need be off, have to take the wife to a reguregu kei Viti style!
seeyas later!!

 

[paddoboy]

wegsy As a seemingly reasonable polite and decent person...as well as a Lady obviously, I'll answer a couple of your questions in more detail...Now the Mrs is waiting for me [and that's a bloody change] so please accept this in good faith....

I understand paddoboy that you see things a certain way - that in your mind, it’s acceptable and harmless.
But, it’s probably not as welcomed as you may think because they’re in a compromised spot, if this banter largely goes on at their workplace. Just food for thought.

Wegs, if I had approached any shop assistant in the manner as proposed by Bells [sidling up to her] and obviously flirting, especially as an old bastard with a young girl [or any shop assistant for that matter] common sense tells me that she or he would and should go to their nearest supervisor/manager and report me.
While also certainly some may object to a casual reference as "Luv" all in my experiences have not, and really, I am perceptive enough, and observant enough, to react to any sign of displeasure and I would cease.
Just to point out the desperation tactics taken in this matter, in the other past thread where this was raised, I described an incident when I was a young bloke, where a sexy looking blonde, slapped me on the arse.
It was immediatley turned against me by James, and kept referencing back to it, inferring that I did the slapping!
The raising about how one would address a female judge is another example of desperation times.


Anyway the Mrs is getting desperate and angry! Must be off!!!

 

[Bells]

No, it is the point! Because the point you're trying to push is not valid in anywhere near a proportionate of cases..

You choose to be ignorant of all of this paddo.

The first part is absolute crap that she would be too afraid of reporting me if it was the case.

In terms of filing a formal complaint, the percentages tend to be quite low. Studies have found that 6% to 13% of individuals who experience harassment file a formal complaint.[63] That means that, on average, anywhere from 87% to 94% of individuals did not file a formal complaint.

Employees who experience harassment fail to report the behavior or to file a complaint because they anticipate and fear a number of reactions - disbelief of their claim; inaction on their claim; receipt of blame for causing the offending actions; social retaliation (including humiliation and ostracism); and professional retaliation, such as damage to their career and reputation.[64]

The fears that stop most employees from reporting harassment are well-founded. One 2003 study found that 75% of employees who spoke out against workplace mistreatment faced some form of retaliation.[65] Other studies have found that sexual harassment reporting is often followed by organizational indifference or trivialization of the harassment complaint as well as hostility and reprisals against the victim.[66] Such responses understandably harm the victim in terms of adverse job repercussions and psychological distress.[67] Indeed, as one researcher concluded, such results suggest that, in many work environments, the most "reasonable" course of action for the victim to take is to avoid reporting the harassment.[68]
[https://www.eeoc.gov/select-task-force-study-harassment-workplace#_ftnref65]

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One in four young women are reluctant to report sexual harassment at work for fear of losing their job, a survey has found, prompting campaigners to call for better protections for women in the workplace.

In the poll of women under the age of 30, conducted by the Young Women’s Trust, 25 per cent said they were concerned they would lose their job if they made a report. This increased to 30 per cent of women of colour, and 37 per cent of those affected by a disability or health condition.

Nearly a fifth (19 per cent) of the women surveyed said they would fear being given fewer hours as a result of reporting sexual harassment, and 31 per cent said they were not aware of how to make a report.

[...]

The survey, which polled 1,998 women in England and Wales aged 18-30, also showed that sexual harassment was still a pervasive problem for young women, even if they were reluctant to offically report it.

Around one in six (16 per cent) said they knew of cases of sexual harassment at work that had been reported and not dealt with properly, while 8 per cent said they had been treated less well at work after rejecting sexual advances. Another 5 per cent said they had to change jobs because of sexual harassment, assault or abuse.

Just 6 per cent of women who had experienced sexual harassment at work had reported it.
[https://www.peoplemanagement.co.uk/...uld-be-fired-for-reporting-sexual-harassment]

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https://humanrights.gov.au/sites/default/files/document/publication/ahrc_sda_survey_report_2019.pdf
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-10...being-sexually-harassed-by-customers/11645556
https://www.smh.com.au/business/wor...tags-to-avoid-harassment-20191029-p535dw.html
https://money.cnn.com/2018/06/12/pf/sexual-harassment-customer/index.html

Stop making excuses.

The hiding part is joviality. I use it all the time when I can't find something..."How mate, where do you hide the sauce?" 'scuse me Luv, where are you hiding the paper towels?'

My god! You seriously don't get how a man walking up to, a "young and pretty" shop assistant (as you took pains to describe her) and asking her where she is hiding the extra virgin olive oil is goddamn creepy and sleazy?

What is wrong with you?

She's not consenting that that.

It's sexualised double entendre that is sexual harassment.

In her workplace.

She is required to smile at you and cop it even if it made her skin crawl.

Or perhaps its you getting caught out? Again if it was a boss that was present, male or female, nothing would change, but bosses you see, or managers, don't frequent around the aisles as much as the ordinary shop assistants.

You are deliberately ignoring what was said and responding to something that was not said.

If you were in your workplace and you spoke to people that way, you would be reprimanded and if the behaviour continued, you would be fired because it is considered sexual harassment.

In retail and customer driven industries, staff often have to put up with harassment, sexual and non-sexual, because of this perverse ideal that the customer is always right. Employees, particularly young female employees have reported to feeling afraid to report such behaviour for fear of being fired.

This is widely known and reported.

You and your inappropriate behaviour, contribute to that form of toxic environment for these women.

Nup, no double entendre or hidden agenda or any sublime message...I needed some extra Virgin Olive oil!

Ya. You ask here where the cooking oil aisle is.

As my partner just noted when I asked him if he would ever go up to a young and pretty shop assistant and ask her where she's hiding the extra virgin olive oil, "what the hell? Err no, that's a really creepy pick up line. I'd ask her "excuse me, could you please tell me which aisle the olive oil is in? Ugh did someone actually ask one where she's hiding it!? That's nasty!".

You especially do not go on about your sexual prowess as you did in that thread and then carry on and do the whole 'why just the other day' type crap with that story, and then comment how she smiled and was happy about it and took you to where it was.

As everyone participating in that thread at the time noted, it's creepy and sleazy and the response was revulsion. No one defended that kind of behaviour because it is not acceptable.

Rubbish...I get away with it, because essentially, there is/was nothing to get away with.

Evidence says otherwise.

You sexually harass these young women by flirting with them and they can't do squat about it.

If they did, they could be fired because you are the type to call the manager (by your own telling, you call the manager often).

In your opinion, and your tiny world perhaps, and even then I doubt it is anywhere near the extent you are trying to portray...Perhaps why this crusade.

Ask any person reading this thread, whether they'd be happy if you did that to their daughter and the answer might surprise you.

In one case, yes a minor, the rest obviously [well obviously to most] not.

Jesus Christ..

It's not fact Bells, and that's the point I'm making with the factual examples I have given including the Mrs.

You approach young women in their workplace, flirt with them, make inappropriate comments (sometimes about their accent), address them inappropriately.

That is the fact of the matter.

Note whatever you like Bells...most of it is lies anyway, and misinterpretation.

I literally quote you word for word.

That's funny

Sexual harassment is never funny paddoboy.

No, I'm not sexist, and it is common everyday banter.

Sexual harassment is often coined as being 'common everyday banter' by the harasser. It's not.

It is sexual harassment. Pure and simple. The fact that you tried to argue that you and they are consenting adults indicates you know exactly what you are doing.

It takes absolutely no effort on your part to not speak to these women (who are complete strangers to you) inappropriately in their workplace. The fact that you refuse to do so says everything about you.

 

[billvon]

wegs...have you read all the examples I have given? the final one yesterday arvo with the Mrs?
Let me again say, if anyone objected to how I address them as Luv, then I would cease. Isn't that good enough?

Wegs has given you her perception of how that might be received. As a woman she likely has a better view on this than you do. Will you disregard her perspective as well, and continue to defend your own behavior as unquestionably right?

 

[wegs]

wegs...have you read all the examples I have given? the final one yesterday arvo with the Mrs?
Let me again say, if anyone objected to how I address them as Luv, then I would cease.

Okay, let's try to see if we can find some common ground here in this rabbit hole.

So, in your opinion, what is the likelihood of a woman who works at a store that you frequent, telling you to stop addressing her as ''luv'' and flirting with her? I'll give you a hint - it's close to zero, because she is in a vulnerable position as an employee dealing with you, a customer. She doesn't want to lose her job, so she'll smile, giggle, etc because to do otherwise, could get her in trouble. Doesn't mean she likes it. She probably would appreciate being spoken to as an equal, with respect. Now, I'm not saying that you are trying to be disrespectful, but the likelihood of an employee telling a customer that they're crossing a line, or making them uncomfortable, is close to zero (unless it became persistent).

See, I think the disconnect here is that you as a man initiating these ''conversations'' can't see that a woman may perceive you as flirting, even if your intent isn't as such. Men also perceive women who are merely being friendly as ''into them.'' Sometimes things get lost in translation, but I'm trying to translate it for you.

 

[Write4U]

What about the term "dear" for someone who goes out of their way to be of assistance.

Is; "Thank you dear, you've been most helpful" inappropriate?

Is "dear" ever inappropriate?

 

[wegs]

Omitting ''dear'' out of the above sentence sounds respectful and kind, and that is the message you want to get across. I don't think using ''dear'' is grossly inappropriate, but it's just not necessary when speaking with strangers. I tend to view cutesy labels /pet names as being reserved for significant others, not strangers.

 

[paddoboy]

You choose to be ignorant of all of this paddo.

I chose to be ignorant of nothing, and have expressed quite clearly why such banter is casual everyday banter, in my own experiences and also elsewhere.

One in four young women are reluctant to report sexual harassment at work for fear of losing their job, a survey has found, prompting campaigners to call for better protections for women in the workplace.​

And I would even question that survey of one in four as anywhere near accurate...probably closer to one in ten.
​

Stop making excuses.

You are kidding, right? After the pages and pages of excuse making by yourself and others, that's real hypocritical.

My god! You seriously don't get how a man walking up to, a "young and pretty" shop assistant (as you took pains to describe her) and asking her where she is hiding the extra virgin olive oil is goddamn creepy and sleazy?

Took pains to describe ?? She was young and pretty, *shrug*

What is wrong with you?

Not a thing Bells, and am as happy as a pig in shit, to use an old Aussie vernacular and absolutely no offence was or looked like being taken As all the other incidents also showed.

It's sexualised double entendre that is sexual harassment.

Not on my part certainly not, yours?

She is required to smile at you and cop it even if it made her skin crawl.

Bullshit, to use another Aussie vernacular.

You are deliberately ignoring what was said and responding to something that was not said.

Nup, I'm stating all the cases I have listed, near word for word, and as undertaken by both sides, male and female, young and old.

You and your inappropriate behaviour, contribute to that form of toxic environment for these women.

I don't participate in toxic behaviour Bells, but I would question the sexy blonde that slapped me on the arse when I was much younger.

Ya. You ask here where the cooking oil aisle is.

I asked where the extra virgin olive oil was. She pointed towards it and gave me the number of the aisle it was in..damn forgotten it!! No hidden agenda, no sublime messages.

As my partner just noted when I asked him if he would ever go up to a young and pretty shop assistant and ask her where she's hiding the extra virgin olive oil,

My wife disagrees with you and your "partner".

Evidence says otherwise.

Nup, again Bells...you see I'm the only one priveleged to that evidence, and of course all the willing participants, both young and old, male and female that were a part of it.

You sexually harass these young women by flirting with them and they can't do squat about it.

Bullshit, they could do heaps if anything like what you are trying to convey, ever happened in the cases I have listed.

If they did, they could be fired because you are the type to call the manager (by your own telling, you call the manager often).

No, not true again Bells, have never needed to call a manager or supervisor as there was no need. In fact on a past occasion the shop assistant called another assistant, to help find a particular item...no not the extra virgin olive oil Bells, that has got you so upset! some packaged batter it was.

Ask any person reading this thread, whether they'd be happy if you did that to their daughter and the answer might surprise you.

I would guess many in this forum would be loathe to cross swords with you Bells.

Jesus Christ..

Superstar, are you who they say you are!!

You approach young women in their workplace, flirt with them, make inappropriate comments (sometimes about their accent), address them inappropriately.

You are failing miserably Bells...I don't flirt with anyone, just indulge in casual banter, and yes, if I am conversing with someone with an accent, I may ask where it is from, as I like to guess on that issue...both men and women of course. Last time I guessed wrong...it was "another "bank teller and she was from Belgium but I am pretty good mostly.

I literally quote you word for word.

You may have on occasion quoted me correctly, but you also misinterpreted me badly.

Sexual harassment is never funny paddoboy.

I agree. It was you that I thought funny.

It takes absolutely no effort on your part to not speak to these women (who are complete strangers to you) inappropriately in their workplace. The fact that you refuse to do so says everything about you.

I don't speak inappropriately to anyone Bells, but am always open for a bit of joviality, which thankfully, those I have interacted with, both male and female, young and old, have been also active.

 

[Bells]

Wegs has given you her perception of how that might be received. As a woman she likely has a better view on this than you do. Will you disregard her perspective as well, and continue to defend your own behavior as unquestionably right?

He already has.

wegsy As a seemingly reasonable polite and decent person...as well as a Lady obviously, I'll answer a couple of your questions in more detail...Now the Mrs is waiting for me [and that's a bloody change] so please accept this in good faith....

Note the nickname, the almost pat on the head type of attitude.

And then he goes on to defend it and dismiss his behaviour.

I guess at this rate we should just be thankful he didn't just call her girly.

What about the term "dear" for someone who goes out of their way to be of assistance.

Is; "Thank you dear, you've been most helpful" inappropriate?

Is "dear" ever inappropriate?

It can make people feel uncomfortable.

Dear, like "love", "honey", "babe", "darling", "darl", etc are terms of endearment. Nicknames people have for those near and dear to them.

Used in a professional setting, such as that person's workplace and they are complete strangers to you, can often be construed as a type of pat on the head and can make them feel like their position is somewhat diminished to being.. well.. like your pet.

My local newsagent calls me by a nickname. She's known me for close to 20 years. I have done some legal work for her pro-bono. I don't say that to her while she is working or at work when I go in to get my daily newspaper. Often my kids would be with me as it can be on my way walking them to school. I address her as "Mrs [insert name here]". She always calls me by my nickname and that's fine. It's her store. I treat her with the utmost respect and a professional at all times, especially when she is in her place of business. It is a recognition of her position in that community, as a senior member of that community and as a business leader and senior person to me in every setting. In a professional setting, when I was doing the legal work for her, she addressed me by my name, because that was my place of work.

 

[paddoboy]

Okay, let's try to see if we can find some common ground here in this rabbit hole.

OK Alice in Wonderland.

So, in your opinion, what is the likelihood of a woman who works at a store that you frequent, telling you to stop addressing her as ''luv'' and flirting with her? I'll give you a hint - it's close to zero, because she is in a vulnerable position as an employee dealing with you, a customer. She doesn't want to lose her job, so she'll smile, giggle, etc because to do otherwise, could get her in trouble. Doesn't mean she likes it. She probably would appreciate being spoken to as an equal, with respect. Now, I'm not saying that you are trying to be disrespectful, but the likelihood of an employee telling a customer that they're crossing a line, or making them uncomfortable, is close to zero (unless it became persistent).

See, I think the disconnect here is that you as a man initiating these ''conversations'' can't see that a woman may perceive you as flirting, even if your intent isn't as such. Men also perceive women who are merely being friendly as ''into them.'' Sometimes things get lost in translation, but I'm trying to translate it for you.

Wegs if I did half the stuff Bells has accused me of, and in the blatant manner she has accused me of, I am pretty sure, I would have smelt some offence, her looks, her shifting away etc [with the pretty young assistant that was not even considered anyway due to social distancing] anything at all! I would back off, no question, no doubt!
Your mention of the effects on men when women are being friendly is interesting.
I had it happen to me many years ago at a party and it was a wife of a friend of mine. I was uncomfortable to say the least. But was it just casual banter? still not sure to this day, but she did also put her hand on my knee, which was what made me uncomfortable. I do not see them now as they live up at Mt Isa in Queensland.
Like I said to Bells, you seem like a Lady.

 

[billvon]

Wegs if I did half the stuff Bells has accused me of, and in the blatant manner she has accused me of, I am pretty sure, I would have smelt some offence, her looks, her shifting away etc [with the pretty young assistant that was not even considered anyway due to social distancing] anything at all! I would back off, no question, no doubt!

I have no doubt that you have never CONSCIOUSLY done anything like that. But I hope you can expand your awareness to include consideration of the people who do not think like you. There are a lot of them - and they are not all "man hating feminists" or "oversensitive assholes." They are regular people - somewhat like you.

 

[paddoboy]

Wegs has given you her perception of how that might be received. As a woman she likely has a better view on this than you do. Will you disregard her perspective as well, and continue to defend your own behavior as unquestionably right?

I respect wegs but that doesn't mean I agree with all she has said.
wegs was not involved in any of my examples, as neither was anyone else. She has my answer and I hope that answer has enlightened her somewhat as to my methodology and everyday convention around me.