Evidence that God is real

[sideshowbob]

If God exists, and absolute right and absolute wrong exist, then it follows that “hell” ( or better said, eternal separation from God ) would exist.

That doesn't follow at all.

1. If "absolute right" and "absolute wrong" are only "what God sez", then they're a meaningless concept.
2. We're not talking about some wishy-washy "separation from God", which wouldn't be such a bad thing anyway. We're talking about eternal torment.​

We put criminals in prison for their whole life, how is this any different ?

We're not gods.

 

[BlueSky]

That doesn't follow at all.

Hi SSB, sure it does. I will try and briefly explain.

1. If "absolute right" and "absolute wrong" are only "what God sez", then they're a meaningless concept.

If God exists ( say as the Holy Bible says He does ) and the atributes of God as described in the Bible are accurate to reality [ remember we are proposing for the sake of this argument that he’s there ] then it’s completly consistent that He makes the rules, since he made reality as we know it. Does a landlord or say a company founder not have the ability/right to set the rules? It’s not a meaningless concept at all.

2. We're not talking about some wishy-washy "separation from God", which wouldn't be such a bad thing anyway. We're talking about eternal torment.

The imagery in the Bible describing hell is just that, imagery. Being separated from the Creator ( say seeing heaven from afar and not being able to get there, would be hell. Being in a prison cell for your whole life and seeing the people through your window having fun would be hell and significant torment.​

We're not gods.

Indeed. But we still “take away” peoples whole lives by putting them in prison for bad crimes right? Analogy’s are never perfect.

 

[sideshowbob]

Does a landlord or say a company founder not have the ability/right to set the rules?

That's not a very good analogy. If a tenant doesn't like the landlord's rules, he is free to move. We are not. In our situation, a responsible landlord should have only reasonable rules. I don't think incinerating the tenants would qualify.

The imagery in the Bible describing hell is just that, imagery.

Yeah, that's a common copout but not a very convincing one.

Being separated from the Creator ( say seeing heaven from afar and not being able to get there, would be hell. Being in a prison cell for your whole life and seeing the people through your window having fun would be hell and significant torment.

Significant, maybe, but in no way equivalent to the "imagery" in the Bible.

But we still “take away” peoples whole lives by putting them in prison for bad crimes right?

We put them away because we're powerless to control their behavior or improve their behavior otherwise. Your God seems pretty puny if that's his only recourse.

 

[BlueSky]

That's not a very good analogy. If a tenant doesn't like the landlord's rules, he is free to move. We are not. In our situation, a responsible landlord should have only reasonable rules. I don't think incinerating the tenants would qualify.

Like I said, analogies are rarely perfect. If God exists ( like one all powerful God ) it makes perfect sense that if they made reality, they can makes the rules. Now whether He exists or not is another question. Hypothetically, He would have the right to set the parameters for life, including “hell”. Governments have the right to makes laws and enforce the consequences, so would a God, hypothetically speaking if that’s the true truth to reality.

Yeah, that's a common copout but not a very convincing one.

It’s not a cop out, it’s the truth. Being separated from God after death will be “hell”. Realizing one was wrong and now it’s too late, is hell. Ignorance of the law is never an excuse here on earth and apparently, beyound.

Significant, maybe, but in no way equivalent to the "imagery" in the Bible.

I agree, the imagery in the Bible is terrifying. All the more reason to investigate and see if Christianity holds any water, does it accurately and truthful tell us what reality is actually about?

We put them away because we're powerless to control their behavior or improve their behavior otherwise. Your God seems pretty puny if that's his only recourse.

Your partly right. We also put them away as punishment for wrong against society. Why is puny to exercise justice?

 

[Michael 345]

We put criminals in prison for their whole life, how is this any different ?

The sentence is for eternity (no mentioned of time off for good behaviour, presuming you can behave good in hell)

 

[sideshowbob]

If God exists ( like one all powerful God ) it makes perfect sense that if they made reality, they can makes the rules.

Well sure, He CAN make the rules. The question is why WOULD He make the silly rules that people attribute to Him?

Being separated from God after death will be “hell”.

Why?

Realizing one was wrong and now it’s toolate, is hell.

Too late for what? To avoid incineration? Why would it be too late? Why couldn't God change His mind?

All the more reason to investigate and see if Christianity holds any water, does it accurately and truthful tell us whatreality is actually about?

I have investigated Christianity. It doesn't hold any water. It is neither accurate nor truthful in telling us what reality is about.

Wealso put them away as punishment for wrong against society.

That's a human weakness, something a god shouldn't have.

Why ispuny to exercise justice?

Because it accomplishes nothing. In fact, "punishing" criminals by locking them away with other criminals just makes them better criminals and more angry at society - i.e. it's downright counter-productive.

The god that you portray is clearly made up by humans, with all of their flaws and weaknesses.

 

[BlueSky]

The sentence is for eternity (no mentioned of time off for good behaviour, presuming you can behave good in hell)

Indeed it is. But let’s pretend there is no god for a sec...., let imagine that evolution ((spontaneous generation of life ) is true, we then would be responsible for ruining the criminals whole life for said crime.

But yes, eternity is a lonnnnnng time, therefore we would be best served to make sure we have given significant time and research to whether God is actually there. We would not want to be wrong on this one.

The stakes are High.

 

[Michael 345]

Why is puny to exercise justice?

What happened to forgiveness?

Seems like if god wants more souls in heaven he should let a good number of sins slide

My new thought though is when he first set up Adam and Eve he was only going to have them to look after in Eden, not 7 billion and counting

Now he has to filter and prioritize

 

[sideshowbob]

... presuming you can behave good in hell

We don't even know what the rules are until we get there. We might get an extension to our sentence for writhing clockwise instead of counter-clockwise.

 

[BlueSky]

Well sure, He CAN make the rules. The question is why WOULD He make the silly rules that people attribute to Him?

What silly rules are you referring to? The OT ones?

Why?

Have you ever made a mistake that you now regret? The Bible, if true, tells us all will see the truth when on the other side, so, there won’t be any confusion. All will regret their decision apparently.

Too late for what? To avoid incineration? Why would it be too late? Why couldn't God change His mind?

Apparently there is no going back once the dye has been cast. There is a finality to this story. I suspose He could change his mind, but apparently at that point He won’t. Now is the time to turn the ship around, not once we are dead.

I have investigated Christianity. It doesn't hold any water. It is neither accurate nor truthful in telling us what reality is about.

Respectfully, I could not disagree more. As a once ardent atheist, I was once there, I was dead wrong. I thought I knew stuff, but turned out I did not. But we are all entitled to our view.

That's a human weakness, something a god shouldn't have.

Putting people in prison for say a terrible crime is a human weakness? I see it as humans exercising justice on evil ( just as God does )

Because it accomplishes nothing. In fact, "punishing" criminals by locking them away with other criminals just makes them better criminals and more angry at society - i.e. it's downright counter-productive.

I work in the justice system. I kind of agree with you. However, what are we supposed to do with people who can’t live normal lives like the rest of us? Should we not exercise justice? If your wife is raped would you not scream for justice? I sure would.

The god that you portray is clearly made up by humans, with all of their flaws and weaknesses.

Not sure why you say this. Analogies are not perfect so they can only convey so much truth.

If there is no God who created the universe, how did we get here? Abiogenesis?

We are ones who imitate our God with flaws and weakness, not Him.

 

[BlueSky]

What happened to forgiveness?

Nothing, it’s here right now for all to ask for. That’s the whole point of the Bible. God is offering forgiveness for any and all who ask for it and then in turn, lives their life as if they were forgiven. A contrite heart is what god is looking for, not rebellion.

Seems like if god wants more souls in heaven he should let a good number of sins slide

Your right! He wants all in Heaven, he’s willing to let ALL your sins slide, if your sorry for them. That’s the key and the heart of the Gospel. He wants people in heaven who want to be there.

My new thought though is when he first set up Adam and Eve he was only going to have them to look after in Eden, not 7 billion and counting
Now he has to filter and prioritize

Love for you to extrapolate on this thought. Not sure I follow.

Regards,
Blue

 

[davewhite04]

We're not gods.

Let's pretend you're a god.

 

[Michael 345]

we would be best served to make sure we have given significant time and research to whether God is actually there

Give us atheist a starting point and we will investigate the brown stuff out of it
Care to provide that starting point?

 

[sideshowbob]

What silly rules are you referring to? The OT ones?

Like I said, the ones that people attribute to Him, like, "Maybe He could just forgive us but apparently He won't."

Have you ever made a mistake that younow regret?

Sure, but as long as I'm not roasting in Hell, I can possibly do something to repair the damage. Hell would be counter-productive.

The Bible, if true, tells usall will see the truth when on the other side, so, there won’t be any confusion.

And what if it isn't true? What if the Qur'an is true? Or the Bagavad Gita? Or the Book of Mormon?

As a once ardent atheist, I was once there, I was dead wrong. I thought I knew stuff, but turned out I did not.

As a once ardent Christian, I was once there, I was dead wrong. I thought I knew stuff, but turned out I did not.

Should we not exercise justice? If your wife is raped would you not scream for justice?

Are you talking about justice or vengeance?

If there is no God who created the universe, how did we get here? Abiogenesis?

Yes.

 

[sideshowbob]

He wants people in heaven who want to be there.

But why does He have to torture people who don't want to be there?

 

[BlueSky]

Give us atheist a starting point and we will investigate the brown stuff out of it
Care to provide that starting point?

Well, sure, I could give you a starting point.

What is Truth?

Does it exist, Does it matter, Can it be found ?

Here is a 3 min video I made that addresses this, and it’s the only place to start in my opinion. Comments always welcome.

 

[DaveC426913]

What has God been doing since Creation?

Holding this whole thing ( Creation ) together. ( a child has no idea how much the parents do to make a home “work” or even exist )

How, exactly?

We look around and see a universe that seems to be in pretty good working order. What parts is God holding together?

 

[Michael 345]

vengeance

Doesn't god have a monopoly on vengeance?

Vengeance is mine sayith the lord

Or is that Snow White?

Hard to tell some fairy tales apart

 

[BlueSky]

But why does He have to torture people who don't want to be there?

Well, the thing is, heaven and hell are baked into the cake ( reality ). If the Bible is correct in its truth claims, once we die, we fall in to the hands of the living God. There are only 2 destinations. If you have been forgiven for your sins in this life, your safe, if not, not. No one will want to be there, once reality sets in.

How, exactly?

We have no idea “how” he does this, it does not really matter the how. The bible tells us that he does. How could we even comprehend such a feat? That’s like asking a 2 year old to explain how Mom and Dad own, run, fix and maintain a home, it’s beyound the childs ability to even grasp it. I suspect it’s the same with us.

We look around and see a universe that seems to be in pretty good working order. What parts is God holding together?

All of it. Right down to the smallest detail.

 

[BlueSky]

Doesn't god have a monopoly on vengeance?

Vengeance is mine sayith the lord

Or is that Snow White?

Hard to tell some fairy tales apart

LOL, the biggest fairy tale of all is that life of immeasurable complexity, self-generated from non-living materials and self organized into what we see today. This paradigm takes real faith imo....