Extreme Atheism - leads to a Proxy God by default.

[James R]

What does a God by proxy or a proxy God mean to you?

It means treating something non-Godlike as if it were God, I suppose.

I believe that determinist, especially of the fatalist variety believe in a universe that has total control over human thought and choices. They state this clearly when they state that free will or self determination is an illusion

The problem I have with this explanation of the determinist position is that it sort of treats "the universe" like a conscious entity with desires and plans. When we talk about having control, we're usually talking about a person or at least a living being, aren't we? The universe isn't like that, as far as I'm aware.

[snip] ...which was posted to another thread by another poster...Do you want the post number?

Not really. I assume that was extracted from one of the Free Will threads. Is the current thread a separate discussion, or should I merge it into one of those threads?

No James that is the Fatalist's position....

I don't see why a fatalist has to believe the universe is God. For example, a Muslim can believe that everything happens according to the will of Allah, in which case they are a fatalistic theist.

It is the fatalist or extreme atheist that believes that freewill is impossible.

I don't see any necessary connection between atheism and one's views on the question of free will. You can be atheist and still believe in free will, or not believe in it. Atheism is a separate issue about whether you believe there is a god or gods.

If you want to equate the term "extreme atheist" with "non-believer in free will", why use the term atheist? Atheism exists in opposition to theism, not to the idea of free will.

You might want to try to show that atheism necessarily implies a non-belief in free will, but you'll have an uphill battle there.

The controversial aspect of the OP is only the sheer irony that a fatalist is actually believing in a God like universe that has absolute control over human thought and choices, A proxy God that absolves humanity of responsibility for his entire existence.

A fatalist believes that the future is set. It can be set by God, or by natural forces. I don't see why you're insisting it's like a God, unless, as I said earlier, you're trying to suggest that the universe is equivalent to a God for the fatalist, for some reason.

It seems to me that the universe lacks many of the traditional attributes of gods.

 

[Dywyddyr]

"a proxy God...by default", means what to you?

Oh, way to completely ignore the majority of my post - I didn't even notice.
Proxy: a stand-in.
God: usually a supreme being, creator deity, and principal object of faith. (Also, usually, supernatural - that doesn't seem to fit at all with your redefinition).

Thinking about it perhaps rather than "atheistic extremism" - for at least parts of your "definition"[sup]1[/sup] - you meant "(rabidly) vocal atheism". I.e. the extremism isn't the atheism per se but rather that the atheists that evince such behaviour are on the extreme(s) of the demographic.

Do you believe in predetermination?

Nope.

1 For example: Those that abhor any belief in anything associated with theism. Those that are proactive in attacking verbally or in print any one with religious thoughts or sentiment.

 

[Quantum Quack]

It means treating something non-Godlike as if it were God, I suppose.


The problem I have with this explanation of the determinist position is that it sort of treats "the universe" like a conscious entity with desires and plans. When we talk about having control, we're usually talking about a person or at least a living being, aren't we? The universe isn't like that, as far as I'm aware.


Not really. I assume that was extracted from one of the Free Will threads. Is the current thread a separate discussion, or should I merge it into one of those threads?


I don't see why a fatalist has to believe the universe is God. For example, a Muslim can believe that everything happens according to the will of Allah, in which case they are a fatalistic theist.


I don't see any necessary connection between atheism and one's views on the question of free will. You can be atheist and still believe in free will, or not believe in it. Atheism is a separate issue about whether you believe there is a god or gods.

If you want to equate the term "extreme atheist" with "non-believer in free will", why use the term atheist? Atheism exists in opposition to theism, not to the idea of free will.

You might want to try to show that atheism necessarily implies a non-belief in free will, but you'll have an uphill battle there.


A fatalist believes that the future is set. It can be set by God, or by natural forces. I don't see why you're insisting it's like a God, unless, as I said earlier, you're trying to suggest that the universe is equivalent to a God for the fatalist, for some reason.

It seems to me that the universe lacks many of the traditional attributes of gods.

Firstly I understand your points very well and agree with most of them... no problemo.
Secondly this thread is not about Freewill nor is it about self determination or co-determination. It is as it is stated in the OP about how taking atheism to an extreme necessitates the belief in determinism, in particular of the Fatalist variety ( as I found out after posting the OP)
Prior to the research I thought that Fatalism was merely a psychological state born of pessimism. I found out though much to my surprise, that is also a branch of determinism which has many branches to it. This is why I posted #4 and included two forms , one being Fatalism the other being predeterminism.

To claim that freewill and self determination are illusions requires the belief in Fatalism.
To be a Fatalist one must also subscribe to Predeterminism.
If one subscribes to both then the consequence of that is that the universe is responsible for human suffering, behavior and decisions accordingly.
If the Universe is responsible, as the fatalist would have us all believe then the terms Proxy God or God like to describe a universal reality, due to the power that universe has over human thoughts and choices come to be very relevant.

Thus extreme atheism is indeed self defeating and contradictory in it's attempt to renounce anything resembling a God because they implicate the universe as being such with their extreme beliefs.

I look forward to discussion among Determinists to see how they can resolve this hard to see, subtle but serious contradiction in their own beliefs.

I hope the above helps with clarification...

 

[Capracus]

so are you saying humans have free-will and self determination or not?

Cap's you can't have it both ways, either humans have freedom to choose or they don't.

No, I'm saying that the universe and everything in it are all subject to the same deterministic process. The universal process of deterministic interaction is what motivate everything. Nothing acts freely in a deterministic reality.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Oh, way to completely ignore the majority of my post - I didn't even notice.
Proxy: a stand-in.
God: usually a supreme being, creator deity, and principal object of faith. (Also, usually, supernatural - that doesn't seem to fit at all with your redefinition).

Thinking about it perhaps rather than "atheistic extremism" - for at least parts of your "definition"[sup]1[/sup] - you meant "(rabidly) vocal atheism". I.e. the extremism isn't the atheism per se but rather that the atheists that evince such behaviour are on the extreme(s) of the demographic.


Nope.

1 For example: Those that abhor any belief in anything associated with theism. Those that are proactive in attacking verbally or in print any one with religious thoughts or sentiment.

perhaps by the later posts of this thread we will have generated a definition of "extreme Atheism" that will be better than the one I self determined... ( oops sorry... couldn't help it....)

 

[Quantum Quack]

Nothing acts freely in a deterministic reality.

ok... that's a no...

 

[Dywyddyr]

It is as it is stated in the OP about how taking atheism to an extreme necessitates the belief in determinism, in particular of the Fatalist variety

Please outline how this is so.
Atheism is a lack of belief in "god/s" - this doesn't necessarily (or logically that I can see) lead to determinism of any variety.

If the Universe is responsible, as the fatalist would have us all believe then the terms Proxy God or God like to describe a universal reality, due to the power that universe has over human thoughts and choices come to be very relevant.

Nope.

Thus extreme atheism is indeed self defeating and contradictory in it's attempt to renounce anything resembling a God because they implicate the universe as being such with their extreme beliefs.

1) You're still using "extreme atheism" incorrectly.
2) You're still working on the unproven, undemonstrated and unwarranted assumption that atheism leads to/ implies subscribing to determinism.
3) You're still using "god" incorrectly. (And since you've not given any definition of your own we can only go by the default meaning).

I look forward to discussion among Determinists to see how they can resolve this hard to see, subtle but serious contradiction in their own beliefs.

I'd suggest that you show that there is, in fact, any contradiction before asking for discussion.

perhaps by the the later of this thread we will have generated a definition of "extreme Atheism" that will be better than the one I self determined...

Ah well, if you're going to use your own definitions (and ignore any consensual, or, for that matter, more accurate one) then any "opponent's" only option is to concede that you are 100% correct in your assertions. For the simple reason that you're using words to mean whatever you want them to, making rational, mutually-understood, communication impossible.

 

[Quantum Quack]

I found this site very helpful (credibility: 7/10)
https://www.philosophybasics.com/branch_determinism.html

lease outline how this is so.
Atheism is a lack of belief in "god/s" - this doesn't necessarily (or logically that I can see) lead to determinism of any variety.

ok.. I shall attempt once more...

For a person to believe in fatalism and predeterminism he MUST be an atheist.
And because Fatalists believe that freewill and self determination are non-existent he also can be considered as extremist. Given that self determination and freewill are self evident globally...(regardless of genesis or causation)

Thus we get ...

Extreme Atheism.

 

[Dywyddyr]

I found this site very helpful (credibility: 7/10)
https://www.philosophybasics.com/branch_determinism.html

Which quite clearly points out that determinism "does not necessarily [mean] Fatalism". And also notes that determinism can include compatibilism.

ok.. I shall attempt once more...

For a person to believe in fatalism and predetermination he MUST be an atheist.[/quote]
Utterly false: if anything it's actually those who subscribe to the belief in "god's" infallible knowledge that should in fact believe in fatalism. If "god" truly does know the future then it must be fixed. Ego no free will is possible.

And because Fatalists believe that freewill and self determination are non-existent he also can be considered as extreme.

Yeah... once again you're equating "atheist" with "fatalist". Why is this?

Given that self determination and freewill is self evident globally...

Is it?
Or is it only the illusion of self determination and free will?

Thus we get ...
Extreme Atheism.

Again - Not. Even. Close.
You seem to be under the impression that all atheists subscribe to a common mind set with regard to materialism/ physicalism. This is far from true.

 

[Baldeee]

For a person to believe in fatalism and predeterminism he MUST be an atheist.

Except those that aren't, of course?
You are clearly so fond of Wiki, so look up "Theological Determinism".
This premise is thus false.

And because Fatalists believe that freewill and self determination are non-existent he also can be considered as extremist.

On what basis do you conclude this?
Where is the logic, or any support, for this assertion?
So you genuinely think anyone who believes that freewill and self-determination (involving non-trivial notions of freedom) are non-existent is an extremist?
So you are calling me an extremist?
Why the use of such a pejorative term, other than as an appeal to emotion?

Given that self determination and freewill are self evident globally...(regardless of genesis or causation)

An unsupported assertion.
Or I should say that it is an assertion supported only by your ignorance of what you are evidencing, and your confidence.
Meaningful arguments need more than that.

Thus we get ...

Extreme Atheism.

Irrespective of one's view of the premises, your conclusion is invalid.
If one is an "extremist" and also a bricklayer, does that make one an "extreme bricklayer"?

So, your logic is invalid, and your premises are false.
And that's before considering your deliberately inflammatory and pejorative use of language, your appeals to emotion, and your arguments from ignorance.

Apart from that, a well structured and articulated argument if ever I saw one.



I await the cesspooling of this nonsense of a thread.

 

[Write4U]

Does determinism answer the question of how the universe arose (the normal remit of God)?

And why is the emergence of mathematical phenomena the remit of God? Based on what evidence or theoretical logic?

Determinism or even Probabilism can be mathematically explained and quantified. God cannot.

"God did it" is NOT sufficient for a logical argument.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Which quite clearly points out that determinism "does not necessarily [mean] Fatalism". And also notes that determinism can include compatibilism.

nice observation... well done...

Utterly false: if anything it's actually those who subscribe to the belief in "god's" infallible knowledge that should in fact believe in fatalism.

Utterly false ... how so?

We are not discussing religious folk just atheists of the Fatalist, predeterminism kind. They are not a defense for your utterly false comment.

Why do you wish to bring theists into the discussion?

Yeah... once again you're equating "atheist" with "fatalist". Why is this?

yep I am for reasons already explained.
All fatalists MUST be atheists. But not all atheists are fatalists.

Is it?
Or is it only the illusion of self determination and free will?

who knows and who cares....
this is not in question.
What is in question is that the fatalist rules out free will and self determination as illusionary. A mere figment of imagination...perhaps it's not?

Why do you think that so called fatalists illusion of free will and self determination is in itself not an illusion?

Again - Not. Even. Close.
You seem to be under the impression that all atheists subscribe to a common mind set with regard to materialism/ physicalism. This is far from true.

not at all ...
I am an atheist ( in the context of this discussion) but firmly believe in the reality of self determination and freewill.
again
All fatalists MUST be atheists. But not all atheists are fatalists.

 

[Quantum Quack]

And why is the emergence of mathematical phenomena the remit of God? Based on what evidence or theoretical logic?

Determinism or even Probabilism can be mathematically explained and quantified. God cannot.

"God did it" is NOT sufficient for a logical argument.

and
"Universe ( proxy God) did it" is NOT sufficient for a logical argument either...
"It" being the Universes mind control of human choices and self determinism.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Quantum Quack said: ↑
For a person to believe in fatalism and predeterminism he MUST be an atheist.

Except those that aren't, of course?

ok... this is worth taking on for a bit...

Explain then how a fatalist, predeterminist can believe in God with out serious contradiction.
and before you manipulate the wording as you typically do, recall that the thread title states a proxy God by default and explains in the OP why it is a consequence of the fatalist doctrine.

 

[Quantum Quack]

So you genuinely think anyone who believes that freewill and self-determination (involving non-trivial notions of freedom) are non-existent is an extremist?
So you are calling me an extremist?
Why the use of such a pejorative term, other than as an appeal to emotion?

No. I believe that extreme atheism leads to a proxy God by default.

How you fit into the picture is entirely up to you to decide not me...
Why so defensive?

 

[Dywyddyr]

Utterly false ... how so?

Um, the clause after the colon. Anyone who believes that "god" has perfect knowledge must also believe that the future is fixed and therefore everything is determined.

We are not discussing religious folk just atheists of the Fatalist, predeterminism kind.

Ah right.

They are not a defense for your utterly false comment.

Except for the fact that I just showed you that your claim "For a person to believe in fatalism and predetermination he MUST be an atheist" is utterly false since a theist can also be a fatalist.

Why do you wish to bring theists into the discussion?

To show that your claim is incorrect.

yep I am for reasons already explained.

Ah. Because you've decided so in spite of the total lack of reasoning behind it.

All fatalists MUST be atheists.

Apart from those theists - who tend NOT to be atheist - that subscribe to the "god has perfect knowledge" tenet...

who knows and who cares....
this is not in question.

Oh wait. It's okay for you to claim - without actual support - that "self determination and freewill is self evident globally" but it's not okay for me to query that?

What is in question is that the fatalist rules out free will and self determination as illusionary.

Is that a question or does the one follow from the other?

A mere figment of imagination...perhaps it's not?

So it's not "self evident" that freewill exists?

Why do you think that so called fatalists illusion of free will and self determination is in itself not an illusion?

What?

I am an atheist ( in the context of this discussion) but firmly believe in the reality of self determination and freewill.

So what - exactly - is the (not-so) subtle difference between your atheism and "extreme atheism"?
Just the fact that you don't argue against religion?

again
All fatalists MUST be atheists.

You keep saying this. Pity it's not true.

Explain then how a fatalist, predeterminist can believe in God?

Oh boy... again: the Bible (not sure about other religions/ Holy books) states that "god" knows the future. How can he/ she/ it know (infallibly) the future unless the future is predetermined?
If "god" knows that you're going to choose blue given a red/ blue choice then - of necessity - you will choose blue and cannot do otherwise.

 

[Quantum Quack]

An unsupported assertion.
Or I should say that it is an assertion supported only by your ignorance of what you are evidencing, and your confidence.
Meaningful arguments need more than that.

a have a look see... how many images do you want for examples:

or

 

[Baldeee]

And why is the emergence of mathematical phenomena the remit of God? Based on what evidence or theoretical logic?

I haven't said it is, have I?
I think you have misunderstood my post: i was not quoting your post to counter it but to follow up on it, I.e. to add further to it.
Determinism is being equated with atheism, and my point is that determinism says nothing about the creation or otherwise of the universe.
They are separate things.
As you stated: to equate God with determinism is illogical.

The rest of your response I won't respond to because I think it starts from the flawed assumption that I was arguing against you, and thus feel you may have picked up on the wrong interpretation.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, though, and I'll revisit.

 

[Write4U]

How would you describe a Universe that has complete control over your thoughts and choices using an unexplained method. ( the USA military would love to know)
Then consider the entire 8 billion or so humans on this planet in the question?

That's a false equivalence.
Are you suggesting that prayer (or just belief in a god) has been proven to help military strategy?

What do YOU end up with? ( apart from flying spaghetti monsters)

No you don't. You end up with a mathematical object which is so vast in scope and dynamic mathematical potentials that determinism can only be estimated over short periods of time, but it can be proven that determinism exists It is contained in the . Cause-->Effect

Cause and effect is a relationship between events or things, where one is the result of the other or others. This is a combination of action and reaction.

We do have a solid logical analysis that a butterfly flapping it's wings may well determine a future storm elsewhere on earth, but only on earth, not elsewhere in the universe.

Therefore God? What do you end up with (apart from FSM), where is the equation?

No matter how one looks at the necessary potentials for the emergence of a universe, God does not meet any of them without hopeless speculation about flying spaghetti monsters. The concept of God is no different than the concept of a "FSM". If you can show me the difference, please do.

I can show the difference between natural mathematical values and functions (mathemtical constants) and the machinations of a God or a FSM. And by Occam's razor the concept and required abilities declare god the loser.

 

[Write4U]

According to a Determinist (Fatalist) what is responsible for all of human suffering?

Are you suggesting God is responsible for human suffering?
What is responsible for any change? Suffering is a natural survival technique, just as happiness is a survival incentive. ("Movement in the direction of greatest satisfaction")