Fat People's View on Skinny

I think we can generally agree that if someone's being used to market something as a model is used, they have features that are considered attractive in Western civilization. She's not being used to advertise make-up because people will go, "WOW! She looks really average!"

There's a difference between mainstream attractiveness and what we individually find attractive. Some men like fat women, but they're idiots if they say this woman isn't attractive and they find her ugly. I'm so tired of people trying to sound "anti-establishment" and "cool" by saying, "Oh, models aren't that attractive." Standards of beauty haven't changed much in Western society since we've had good nutrition/plenty of food available.
 
takandjive said:
There's a difference between mainstream attractiveness and what we individually find attractive. Some men like fat women, but they're idiots if they say this woman isn't attractive and they find her ugly. I'm so tired of people trying to sound "anti-establishment" and "cool" by saying, "Oh, models aren't that attractive." Standards of beauty haven't changed much in Western society since we've had good nutrition/plenty of food available.
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You sound like you came right off the playground at school.
I'd suggest you remove your head from you're oh so hot (in your opinion) ass.
 
takandjive said:
Okay. Despite the fact less attractive people are generally less successful at romance, career, etc.,
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You'll have to back this up by the way or withdraw the comment.
Regardless I'm still going to tell you that the definition of a successful life/career/romantic life etc is entirely subjective.
 
Orleander said:
I'm jealous of women with a porcelain complection. I have freckles
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Kate Moss has freckes

Anti-flag the way fashion comes down towards the massess has mostly always been the same. First it sets an ideal that women aspire and work towards, today its being thing, in the 50's it was being buxom. Do you think it would have been fun for a stick figure to have to fit into dressses designed for big breasted big hipped women? I think not. In China at one time the ideal for women of society were samll 6" feet (a requirement for being attractive to men). Mother's forced their young daughters into foot-binding. These women didn't have to work nevermind walk but even though the working classess couldn't practically bind their feet, they did try and emulate the style as best as they could and so minimally bound their feet.

There is also a practical reason for why desigeners prefer thinner women:

1. A thin woman can slip into almost any sample which is why they call models 'hangers'

2. Samples come in one size, they don't have the time to make samples specifically for diversly shaped women for one show.

3. Tall women stand out on a catwalk

I think its sour grapes to call models ugly when many of them really are not, many have unusual features and this is why people like to look at them. They have to be photogenic and not many women are even if they are pretty. Its generally uniqueness that designers and art directors are looking for in a model. Don't kid yourself that they are marketing these items to the 'average' woman, the average woman cannot pay between $500- $1,000 for a pair of designer shoes or from $2000-$10,000 for a designer dress. They are pandering to the upper echelons of society not the girl at the check out counter. But since fashion has always come from the top where the best designers plow their trade, those who create clothes by the thousands for the average women tend to steal color and style ideas from what they see during high fashion shows. They use sub standard material and the clothes are stretched to meet the needs of larger women they were not originally designed for which actually ruins the cut. Its women like Lane Bryant who makes designs specific for plus size women but she's not democratic either; a thin woman could never be booked for an ad or for the catwalk because all the clothes would come in one size, which is 12 or 14. Fashion has never been a democratic institution and I see no reason why it should be. If you are comfortable with what you see don't look but don't whine about which body type they don't represent. This type of Art isn't supposed to mirror the masses, it dictates to the masses.
 
Lucysnow said:
Kate Moss has freckes

Anti-flag the way fashion comes down towards the massess has mostly always been the same. First it sets an ideal that women aspire and work towards, today its being thing, in the 50's it was being buxom. Do you think it would have been fun for a stick figure to have to fit into dressses designed for big breasted big hipped women? I think not. In China at one time the ideal for women of society were samll 6" feet (a requirement for being attractive to men). Mother's forced their young daughters into foot-binding. These women didn't have to work nevermind walk but even though the working classess couldn't practically bind their feet, they did try and emulate the style as best as they could and so minimally bound their feet.
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That's just the point though, are they really attractive or is this a more general thing about a controlling "we like this, so we want you to like it too" attitude? I can't imagine having a thing for women with only a certain size feet, and to say everyone did for a generation sounds like social brainwashing rather than actual genetics or any consideration for what they actually liked. Do we really need an "ideal" when everybody is unique and has different tastes?

There is also a practical reason for why desigeners prefer thinner women:

1. A thin woman can slip into almost any sample which is why they call models 'hangers'

2. Samples come in one size, they don't have the time to make samples specifically for diversly shaped women for one show.

3. Tall women stand out on a catwalk
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This is subject to change of course, as you showed, so the question is WHY does is change?

I think its sour grapes to call models ugly when many of them really are not, many have unusual features and this is why people like to look at them.
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See Oli's post above and mine. Everyone likes different things, to me, the majority are ugly, but I imagine I like more people that I pass on the street than the average man. Curse my genetics but this is completely irrelevant to how I feel about myself, and dismissing it as sour grapes or jealousy is a very closed minded view to take.
It makes about as much sense as a millionaire telling a self sufficient and happy person that they must be jealous because they have a different opinion on how to live. They could just as easily say the same back.
They have to be photogenic and not many women are even if they are pretty. Its generally uniqueness that designers and art directors are looking for in a model. Don't kid yourself that they are marketing these items to the 'average' woman, the average woman cannot pay between $500- $1,000 for a pair of designer shoes or from $2000-$10,000 for a designer dress. They are pandering to the upper echelons of society not the girl at the check out counter. But since fashion has always come from the top where the best designers plow their trade, those who create clothes by the thousands for the average women tend to steal color and style ideas from what they see during high fashion shows. They use sub standard material and the clothes are stretched to meet the needs of larger women they were not originally designed for which actually ruins the cut. Its women like Lane Bryant who makes designs specific for plus size women but she's not democratic either; a thin woman could never be booked for an ad or for the catwalk because all the clothes would come in one size, which is 12 or 14. Fashion has never been a democratic institution and I see no reason why it should be. If you are comfortable with what you see don't look but don't whine about which body type they don't represent. This type of Art isn't supposed to mirror the masses, it dictates to the masses.
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That's the point, if it isn't aimed at the average women then why are they so obsessed with it?
I think the last part illustrates perfectly the whole arrogance and brainwashing of the situation. They tell us what to like, and we lap it up. You don't think that's the least bit pathetic?

By the way, I think like most people who have no interest in fashion I don't go looking for the models or their clothes, but be fair here it's hard not to notice them when they are shoved up on billboards all over the place, and on adverts, and pretty much everywhere you look.
 
Lucysnow said:
Right Anti-flag some people would say these women are ugly right?

ttp://www.wallpapergate.com/data/media/722/Linda_Evangelista_007.jpg

http://beautyfashionlife.files.wordpress.com/2008/05/iman-cosmetics-400a121307.jpg

http://www.top-fashion-models.info/female-models/pics/devon-aoki4.jpg

http://www.santabanta.com/wallpapers/gallery1.asp?catid=800
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Correct, some people would say they are ugly. There is no such thing as perfection or true beauty beyond an individual persons opinion because the terms are entirely subjective. Yet people continue to clamour for it.
 
In order:
Nothing spectacular.
Quite good looking.
Unusual but not really pretty.
Pardon? She's always seemed very "white bread" to me.

[Edit] If you can find it: look at the vastly different opinions in the "Most Beautiful Woman" thread, or whatever it was called. [EndEdit]
 
Anti-Flag; That's just the point though, are they really attractive or is this a more general thing about a controlling "we like this, so we want you to like it too" attitude? I can't imagine having a thing for women with only a certain size feet, and to say everyone did for a generation sounds like social brainwashing rather than actual genetics or any consideration for what they actually liked. Do we really need an "ideal" when everybody is unique and has different tastes?

Yes they are attractive and very attractive women or men are generally uncommon. The chinese foot thing was a cultural phenomenon but it illustrates that certain things like small feet or thin bodies can take on a fashion trend and women will follow it as it drips from the top down. You miss the point, there has always been an ideal from the divas on the stage to the catwalk their has alway been an ideal, its a cultural phenonmenon not a conspiracy. Whether the ideal is large breasts and big butts like Kim kardashian, Beyonce and Jennifer Lopez, or skinny fashion models.

The images changes as society and culture changes. Oli is stating a preference, he didn't say the woman was 'ugly' and I don't believe you find the majority of these women to be ugly either.
I think its a knee-jerk reaction to call what is obviously a beautiful woman 'ugly' whether it is sour grapes or not. I am not referring to your body size because as I posted earlier there are large women who are beautiful but they also don't represent the average, they are unusually attractive. Beauty is Beauty and a few extra pounds tends not to change that...though facial fire burns problably would. And Beauty ISN'T a lifestyle as you seem to think its an aesthetic value.


Anti-flag: That's the point, if it isn't aimed at the average women then why are they so obsessed with it?

Who are obsessed with it? The average person? Because most people like beautiful things ie. clothes, jewelry, makeup. Most like to enhance their physical self aiming at some kind of ideal even if its through body piercings and modifications, having a hard body from working out at the gym, or sporting a pink mohawk.

Anti-flag: I think the last part illustrates perfectly the whole arrogance and brainwashing of the situation. They tell us what to like, and we lap it up. You don't think that's the least bit pathetic?

No I don't think its pathetic its the way fashion works. There are people who care nothing for it but they are indifferent towards it, they aren't disparaging. And its not brainwashing either, don't you think that in earlier centuries when there were no billboards or television and magazines that people didn't aspire to an ideal beauty? You are kidding yourself if you think this has been any different at any other time. China didn't advertize small feet, it spread as all cultural things do. If you feel its being shoved down your throat its because you have a personal issue with it. I never feel manipulated nor threatened by it. I love fashion and I pick and choose from it the items or trends I particularly enjoy. I don't know about you but I love buying beautiful clothes and shoes, I love a cool pair of jeans and that specail top to go with it or whatever. Fashion should be fun not a drag.
 
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But Oli would you call them ugly? The most beautiful women thread deals with preferences, some prefer one to another but one wouldn't call any of them 'ugly'. Anti-flag who do you know who would call any of these women 'ugly'? Are they ugly in your minds eye? If so what do you call beauty? Please no pictures of old smiling ladies, children blowing bubbles or fat women having a smile and a laugh over ice cream, I will only assume you're being politically correct.
 
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Lucysnow said:
You miss the point, there has always been an ideal from the divas on the stage to the catwalk their has alway been an ideal, its a cultural phenonmenon not a conspiracy.
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But a cultural ideal is NOT universal within that culture, there are different opinions.
I'm a Brit and I dislike tea intensely for example. (And I'd be a lousy American because I can't stand the taste of orange juice) :)

I think its a knee-jerk reaction to call what is obviously a beautiful woman 'ugly' whether it is sour grapes or not.
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Again: "what is obviously a beautiful woman"?
Obvious to whom?
 
Lucysnow said:
Yes they are attractive, we very attractive women are uncommon. The chinese foot thing was a cultural phenomenon but it illustrates that certain things like small feet or thin bodies can take on a fashion trend and women will follow it as it drips from the top down. You miss the point, there has always been an ideal from the divas on the stage to the catwalk their has alway been an ideal, its a cultural phenonmenon not a conspiracy. Whether the ideal is large breasts and big butts like Kim kardashian, Beyonce and Jennifer Lopez, or skinny fashion models.

The images changes as society and culture changes. Oli is stating a preference, he didn't say the woman was 'ugly' and I don't believe you find the majority of these women to be ugly either.
I think its a knee-jerk reaction to call what is obviously a beautiful woman 'ugly' whether it is sour grapes or not. I am not referring to your body size because as I posted earlier there are large women who are beautiful but they also don't represent the average, they are unusually attractive. Beauty is Beauty and a few extra pounds tends not to change that...though facial fire burns problably would. And Beauty ISN'T a lifestyle as you seem to think its an aesthetic value.
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You missed the point, it's subjective, as Bells has now helpfully pointed out with a very well known saying. Yes, they can be considered ugly, just like everyone else, it just depends on who's judging them.

Who are obsessed with it? The average person? Because most people like beautiful things ie. clothes, jewelry, makeup. Most like to enhance their physical self aiming at some kind of ideal even if its through body piercings and modifications, having a hard body from working out at the gym, or sporting a pink mohawk.
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That's just it though, haven't you noticed the ones who "must" have an item of clothing or a particular style because it's "in"? Having an individual ideal is one thing, a collective one is another matter. Why is everyone trying to look exactly the same; because that's how they really want to look, or because that's how they're told to look? At the least it's an interesting social experiment.

No I don't think its pathetic its the way fashion works. There are people who care nothing for it but they are indifferent towards it, they aren't disparaging. And its not brainwashing either, don't you think that in earlier centuries when there were no billboards or television and magazines that people didn't aspire to an ideal beauty? You are kidding yourself if you think this has been any different at any other time. China didn't advertize small feet, it spread as all cultural things do. If you feel its being shoved down your throat its because you have a personal issue with it. I never feel manipulated nor threatened by it. I love fashion and I pick and choose from it the items or trends I particularly enjoy. I don't know about you but I love buying beautiful clothes and shoes, I love a cool pair of jeans and that specail top to go with it or whatever. Fashion should be fun not a drag.
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Right, but do you think the majority of people see it that way? See above about "must haves" and influence. Would society collapse if we just one day said "go ahead, it's your call".:shrug:
Secondly if you don't think it's being shoved down peoples throats then you should stop and take a look around once in a while, it's everywhere.
I ignore it, don't mistake that, but that also doesn't ever mean I should skulk away and not have an opposing opinion when people effectively say "and here we have an example of beauty, don't argue, our opinion is correct and bollocks to yours it's wrong". Subjective issues don't work like that.
 
Lucysnow said:
But Oli would you call them ugly? The most beautiful women thread deals with preferences, some prefer one to another but one wouldn't call any of them 'ugly'. Anti-flag who do you know who would call any of these women 'ugly'? Are they ugly in your minds eye? If so what do you call beauty? Please no pictures of old smiling ladies, children blowing bubbles or fat women having a smile and a laugh over ice cream, I will only assume you're being politically correct.
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Politically correct? Crikey, you haven't read any of my posts before have you? :p
I'm hoping Oli is on the same wavelength as me when I say the reason they are ugly in someones opinion is because it just isn't what they go for, so in their opinion they are unattractive. It's a fact of life. Unless the only person you equate to the word "ugly" is the elephant man, then we may have a difference of opinion on what the word means.
 
Lucysnow said:
But Oli would you call them ugly?
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Ugly, no.
But Elle McPherson for example has always struck me as bland.

Isabelle Adjani, on the other hand...
Isabelle_Adjani_1-700.jpg


And I've always a "thing" for Paula Yates:
Paula_Yates_4.jpg
 
CutsieMarie89 said:
But your already taller than average, aren't you? 5'7?. Just get some high heeled boots or something.
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Yeah...

But I was hyper tall in early adolescence (didn't really fuss about my height until people started commenting on how lanky I was), and looking forward to being one of those amazon/supermodel types....then I slowed down and only grew in little increments.

I have this exercise I call 'The Rack'...I lie on my metal bunk bed, hook my feet under one end and my hands around the other, and pull my spine out straight...Probably not a good idea, but meh.
 
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But Oli I don't think you understand my point here, in China footbinding became a necessary part in getting a husband for example, the richer you were the smaller the feet were bound so it was also a sign of social status. It wasn't like 'oh I feel like having bound feet today' or 'I really never liked bound feet I think I will go for something else'. At the time it was a cultural ideal that deeply embedded itself in society and it was followed. No easy feat either as the foot had to be literally broken when as a young girl and forced into the shape. You see oli those pictures you posted also features beautiful women, whether you prefer them to Elle is an entirely different matter and doesn't take away from the fact that Elle is still a beautiful woman

Oli: Again: "what is obviously a beautiful woman"?
Obvious to whom?

What's a cute puppy? Or a beautiful rose? And to whom? You still didn't answer whether you found any of those models to be what is called 'ugly'. We all have a visceral response to beauty and we tend to know it when we see it. Its not a deep thing here, I mean you can see a beautiful dress and decide it isn't a practical item because its uncomfortable to sit in it for example. You can agree a woman is beautiful but not have the urge to sleep with her or talk to her because her accent sucks or she speaks rubbish or because she isn't nice nor interesting. But all that withstanding it doesn't make the dress or the woman any less beautiful. I think you mistake preferences for whether the object has intrinsic aesthetic value. Tea and orange juice have no aesthetic values at all.
 
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Anti-Flag:You missed the point, it's subjective, as Bells has now helpfully pointed out with a very well known saying. Yes, they can be considered ugly, just like everyone else, it just depends on who's judging them.

That's not a point that's a cliche. I don't think that people go around calling beautiful things ugly, no. If its relative then I guess the anorexic is just fine to think she is fat at 95 pounds and that its relative and there will be many who find this woman:

http://www.uglypeople.com/voting.php?next=dXBsb2FkZWQvMTI2MDU2LzE0LmpwZw==

and this one

http://www.uglypeople.com/voting.php?next=dXBsb2FkZWQvNS91cDEuanBn

Are beautiful without it being considered a fetish.


Antiflag: That's just it though, haven't you noticed the ones who "must" have an item of clothing or a particular style because it's "in"?

NO not unless they are really young. People who understand style know that the 'must have' items are those that enhance your personal style.

Antiflag: Having an individual ideal is one thing, a collective one is another matter. Why is everyone trying to look exactly the same; because that's how they really want to look, or because that's how they're told to look? At the least it's an interesting social experiment.

No one can tell you how to look because 'the look' doesn't represent and isn't designed for everyone. I mean I would look so silly in a Jean Paul Gaultier gown, his clothes are designed for a different personality type, a different kind of aesthetic beauty.


Anti-flag: Right, but do you think the majority of people see it that way? See above about "must haves" and influence. Would society collapse if we just one day said "go ahead, it's your call".:shrug:

People do do that. I don't know why you assume they do not. Desire is what it is, you cannot manufacture it. When various hues of green where the rage I didn't buy anything in that color because green has never suited my complexion. I buy what ENHANCES not what I am told and thank god that these designers have a variety of attitudes and tastes, what is out there is actually quite diverse, I don't know why you cant see that.

Anti-flag: Secondly if you don't think it's being shoved down peoples throats then you should stop and take a look around once in a while, it's everywhere.
I ignore it, don't mistake that, but that also doesn't ever mean I should skulk away and not have an opposing opinion when people effectively say "and here we have an example of beauty, don't argue, our opinion is correct and bollocks to yours it's wrong". Subjective issues don't work like that.

Why would you argue about it? The fashion industry doesn't care whether you like it, agree with it, have an opinion about it or not. They don't care if you think that the models are too skinny either they have THEIR aesthetic that they are dealing with. Designers are artists first and they care about quality and beauty, exclusivity and uniquness, whether you like it or not is besides the point. Most cannot afford it anyway! I see fashion but I don't think its being shoved down my throat, its advertising, its selling, its beautiful ads or ordinary ads or shock ads. So what? I'm not bothered by it at all.
 
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