Free Will and Determinism

[paddoboy]

Completely out of the blue. Why did you say this, do you even know?

Because it is really the only logical choice we have. The laws of physics were logically established at the BB.
They have nothing to do with Evolution, which is the reason for free will.

Science is what you know. Philosophy is what you don't know.
Bertrand Russell (1872-1970) English philosopher, mathematician.

 

[Write4U]

So you realize then arms have no problem to move without consciousness and without free will?

You are substituting your will for my will. The arm will respond regardless.

humbledesktop,The laws of physics were established at the BB.

Completely out of the blue. Why did you say this, do you even know?

I disagree, the Laws of physics always existed in potential form. Some (maybe all) of them became "Expressed" in physical reality at the BB.

I believe we call those fundamental systemic laws: "constants".

 

[paddoboy]

I disagree, the Laws of physics always existed in potential form. Some (maybe all) of them became "Expressed" in physical reality at the BB.
I believe we call those fundamental systemic laws: "constants".

Universal constants, physical constants or the laws of physics, I'm not sure how one can apply them to anything at all, before the BB, and when space and time also had a beginning.
Nothing can exist, when you truly have nothing, not even space and time, of which we can ever be aware of for those laws to exist in.

I don't mind speculating that IF the quantum foam from whence the BB arose, had laws of physics imposed at that period, and likewise one can also speculate that whatever other bubble Universes arose, may well have been endowed with different laws, so that they have already collapsed, expanded beyond comprehension and a big rip, or just simply not suitable for life at all.

 

[paddoboy]

"Our universe has certain laws of physics, which in turn dictate the laws of chemistry. That means that certain chemicals are more likely to combine in certain ways than in other ways. It is ultimately that tendancy which led to the formation of DNA. (This has nothing to do with the Big Bang theory, by the way. It is simple chemistry and biology.)"
JamesR:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?28490-Origin-of-the-Universe
I found the above extract from an archived thread.
It roughly enforces what I also believe..

 

[Write4U]

Universal constants, physical constants or the laws of physics, I'm not sure how one can apply them to anything at all, before the BB, and when space and time also had a beginning.
Nothing can exist, when you truly have nothing, not even space and time, of which we can ever be aware of for those laws to exist in.

I don't mind speculating that IF the quantum foam from whence the BB arose, had laws of physics imposed at that period, and likewise one can also speculate that whatever other bubble Universes arose, may well have been endowed with different laws, so that they have already collapsed, expanded beyond comprehension and a big rip, or just simply not suitable for life at all.

Yes, this is a little hobby horse of mine. Being from Holland I use wikipedia often and I ran across the word "potential"
eiki,

Potential generally refers to a currently unrealized ability. The term is used in a wide variety of fields, from physics to the social sciences to indicate things that are in a state where they are able to change in ways ranging from the simple release of energy by objects to the realization of abilities in people. Examples include: (a long list of examples drscribing the nature of "potential')

It occurred to me that every event (from BB to "the end") is preceded by potential and potential is a "common denominator" of everything that was, is, or will be.

IMO, the potential for the BB existed before the BB actually occurred. This may have been just a quantum moment, but if we accept the singularity model, the Inflationary Epoch is that one single moment where everything happened all at once at the same place. Result: Chaos.

Only after that initial mega quantum event and the Inflationary Epoch which did not obey the laws of physics, did the laws of physics emerge and expressed as temperatures cooled.

 

[Write4U]

"Our universe has certain laws of physics, which in turn dictate the laws of chemistry. That means that certain chemicals are more likely to combine in certain ways than in other ways. It is ultimately that tendancy which led to the formation of DNA. (This has nothing to do with the Big Bang theory, by the way. It is simple chemistry and biology.)"
JamesR:
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?28490-Origin-of-the-Universe
I found the above extract from an archived thread.
It roughly enforces what I also believe..

I agree, and is in agreement with the concept of "potential" as "that which may become reality", with subsets of "possibility and "probabilitY"

 

[paddoboy]

IMO, the potential for the BB existed before the BB actually occurred. This may have been just a quantum moment, but if we accept the singularity model, the Inflationary Epoch is that one single moment where everything happened all at once at the same place. Result: Chaos.

Agreed, and speaking speculatively, we can logically extrapolate back while aligning with known physical laws.
see the Ultimate free lunch.

Only after that initial mega quantum event and the Inflationary Epoch which did not obey the laws of physics, did the laws of physics emerge and expressed as temperatures cooled.

How does Inflation not align with the known physical laws?

From Holland?
My favourite musical artist comes from Mastricht...Andre Rieu and his Johann Strauss Orchestra.
You know of him?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ8WN0KEVoU
I'm planning a trip there next May.

 

[Undefined]

Hi everyone. Since I logged in for another matter, I will post the following two comments/examples on/of 'free will'...mainly for the benefit of current participants in this discussion, since I am currently unable to enter into any lengthy discussions for a while yet.

Example/situations where 'free will' is demonstrably involved; consider...

1) Make up a 'game' and the scoring/choice 'rules' etc for that game. If you play that game, and throw the dice and you 'follow' your OWN MADE UP scoring/choice 'rules', then even if you are following the 'dice input' as part of your decision-making 'choices', IT IS STILL YOUR OWN 'rules' which dictate what the 'dice input' MEANS within your OWN made up 'gaming-rules' CONSTRUCT. Hence 'free will' that you used to make up the game, rules etc is the only DECIDER of your pursuant 'free will' gaming actions which follow YOUR PRE-CHOSEN 'free will' choices/rules!

2) No 'free will' can exist until there is a mental construct that distinguishes 'self' from 'other' within the 'mirror world' your mind-brain builds up as you grow from childhood to adult and 'program your mind-brain construct, complete with the co-developing 'free will' CHOICES and POSSIBILITIES 'permutations' which your evolved 'self-and-other' mirror construct has been provided with by your own 'exp[eriences, wants, aspirations, training, etc etc over the years to 'maturity' of that construct to the point it is no longer 'child state' (which is much like 'animal state' until the human mind-brain has developed to its 'adult state' of self-awareness and self-responsibility for 'self' and 'other' in social situations both real and as 'imagined' by you within the capability/extent of your own 'free will' state...noting that some damaged/impaired adult mind-brains are not capable of 'free will', and hence the usual 'protection/supervision orders' which may be applied to such undeveloped/damaged 'childlike state' and manipulable/impressionable people).

Hope the above two demonstrable 'free will' situations/examples helps your interesting discussion. Sorry I can't stay to discuss further. Cheers all!

 

[Write4U]

Agreed, and speaking speculatively, we can logically extrapolate back while aligning with known physical laws.
see the Ultimate free lunch.

How does Inflation not align with the known physical laws?

Intuitively I feel uncomfortable with the notion of "physical laws" (in force) without "physical objects", which were created directly after the IE. I see pure chaos before order emerged. This is why my definition of "potential" in this instance is more a latent permissive condition rather than a causal or controlling physical force or result.

As soon as physical matter appeared, it had to obey physical laws which had lain dormant as universal potentials (latencies).
But I will readily admit I am in deep water here and just getting my feet wet.

From Holland?
My favourite musical artist comes from Mastricht...Andre Rieu and his Johann Strauss Orchestra.
You know of him?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ8WN0KEVoU
I'm planning a trip there next May.

Amsterdam native. Ex-musician. I enjoy Andre Rieu. When he plays, it's party time! Dancing in the isles.

On a quiet evening you might enjoy this hybrid music. They use several different time signatures, like 5/4, etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz-rVWDZGS0

 

[Write4U]

Rereading the discussion, which indirectly connected to "string theory" I remembered a little experiment which shows how (in principle) string theory and perhaps even Bohm's Holomovement in a very fundamental way. It is an example of wave functions and the natural emergence of "familiar movements and shapes including a wavelike expression of DNA.

The law of the holomovement: Holonomy[edit]

The starting point for Bohm's articulation of what he means by a "new order in physics" is his notion of wholeness. Thus crucial for understanding the holomovement is his notion of how interconnected phenomena are woven together in an underlying unified fabric of physical law. In the following section, called "Law in the Holomovement", he takes up the question of order, and the laws of organization which relate the parts to each other and to the whole. This is what he calls the "law of the whole", or holonomy. Rather than starting with the parts and explaining the whole in terms of the parts, Bohm's point of view is just the opposite: he starts with a notion of undivided wholeness and derives the parts as abstractions from the whole.

The essential point is that the implicate order and the holomovement imply a way of looking at reality not merely in terms of external interactions between things, but in terms of the internal (enfolded) relationships among things: "The relationships constituting the fundamental law are between the enfolded structures that interweave and inter-penetrate each other, through the whole of space, rather than between the abstracted and separated forms that are manifest to the senses (and to our instruments)"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holomovement

Watch the demonstration and you'll be amazed at seeing universal potentials expressed right before your eyes, including the dual helix of DNA.
http://sciencedemonstrations.fas.ha...ram_name=indepth.html#a_icb_pagecontent341734

 

[Nomadd22]

You can't go wrong believing in free will. You're either right, or you have to believe that way.