genisis.

[DefSkeptic]

MarcAC-

We accept everything upon some degree of faith

I see what you mean, some concepts need a lot more faith than others. The ones that take less faith provide more evidence, thus strengthening its validity.

In your uninformed opinion. You don't know if God's existence is fact or not based on your reasoning. Am I presumptious or what???

God either exists or he doesn't. Fact or no fact. We are not sure, no matter how much one convinces themselves. We can examine what evidence has been put forth and go in the general trend of what we believe to be true from this evidence.

This is obviously a preprogrammed response to anyone who believes in God. Please indicate where in my posts on this thread or forum I indicated that.

You didnt, I simply posed those questions to illicit a response.

You presume it's faulty... o.k... your presumption.

Faulty in that I believe you are coming to a premature conclusion without knowing all the pertinent information needed to convince oneself of the "fact" of God.

Why should I accept your opinion without proof?

This is why I think you should at least consider my point of view-

I accpet that I'm ignorant about the universe as it is in physical state.

Dont you think a proper understanding of the universe we inhabit is necessary for a conclusion to be made? If you dont know how the universe operates then you shouldnt be so eager to attach vague concepts to the mechanisms that created and maintain our universe.

But God is not an infantile or whatever 'interpretation' in fact. That's just your opinion. I see no evidence to support it.

Can you describe to me your God. Is it the Christian God or something else?

But God is not an infantile or whatever 'interpretation' in fact.

If it is indeed the Christian God, I think myself and many others can vouch that this is an intellectually infantile concept.

 

[Horseman42]

MarcAC,

I wanted to finish responding to the rest of your post, as I didn't have a lot of time eariler as I was late for work.

God wants all to become righteous so they can become like him. Not everyone has been/is/will be righteous. Thus not everything God wants to happen happens.

This is an utter contradiction. If you believe God to be all powerful and he wants all to become righteous there should be no reason why everyone is not righteous. If everything God wants does not happen then god is not all powerful.

This is all assuming you believe an all perfect being such as God can actually "want" or "desire" anything at all. Such a premise has problems to begin with anyways.

You see, you don't get it. Because God knows what will happen doesn't mean it has happened. Agreed?

Yes I agree with this.

You are relatively sure the sun will come up tomorrow... considering all the factors [huge asteroids, red giant etc.]. So you know the Sun will come up tomorrow - corollary - the sun aint up yet bro or sis.

Relatively sure doesn't mean 100% sure. The sun may not come up tomorrow. This aside God does know 100% if it will or won't and he has it planned this way. This second part is the key I'm trying to get at.

If God puts you in hell now - he'll do it before you even chose to go there - you wouldn't be able to live your critical atheistic life and make those dire choices. Get it? Fun isn't it?

Ok then. Predestination aside though. You can't say it's an easy choice to believe or to know God exists. Many of the arguements throughout time tend to disprove this fact. If you think God's existance is solid then why doesn't everyone know of his existance? Have you looked at the other side to try and understand why athiests think the way they do?

I'd like to think I'm making an educated choice on weather or not to believe in God or not. I've looked at both sides and evaluated the individual arguements (I use this term as that's the term philosophers use). If I decide that the existance of God is unproven then why should I be condemned to Hell? This is the point I'm trying to get at. Again you cannot say this is an easy choice.

Would God be this petty?

 

[MarcAC]

Originally posted by Horseman42
MarcAC,
This is an utter contradiction. If you believe God to be all powerful and he wants all to become righteous there should be no reason why everyone is not righteous. If everything God wants does not happen then god is not all powerful.

No, that doesn't cut it. As I stated before you can have all the power and not choose to exercisee it. In other words you can run at 40 km/hr and you run at 20 km/hr. Does it mean that you can't run at 40 km/hr? No, you just choose not to.

This is all assuming you believe an all perfect being such as God can actually "want" or "desire" anything at all. Such a premise has problems to begin with anyways.

Well this idea is new to me. Can you elaborate a bit?

Relatively sure doesn't mean 100% sure. The sun may not come up tomorrow. This aside God does know 100% if it will or won't and he has it planned this way. This second part is the key I'm trying to get at.

Agreed. But the sun doesn't choose if it will come up or not does it? You see you have to look at it as us working in tandem with God. Not God controlling us - or us joyriding through life like many people do. So it is one big - and apparently - static system. God knows your choice, you can't contradict his knowledge, but you still choose. There is nothing wrong with that view. If you didn't/don't/will not choose well how would He know your choice? I just love this concept.

Ok then. Predestination aside though. You can't say it's an easy choice to believe or to know God exists. Many of the arguements throughout time tend to disprove this fact. If you think God's existance is solid then why doesn't everyone know of his existance? Have you looked at the other side to try and understand why athiests think the way they do?

Sure I have. I know exactly how you guys think. Everyone does know of his existence, they just refuse to acknowledge Him. They want nothing to do with Him. Remeber that Bible passage the EvilPoet posted above? That's basically what it is saying. Evidence of God is all around you. You just need to look at the world differently, and you'll see it. I can look in front of me and see a gaseous medium with quadrillions of atoms moving around in it. You can look and see nothing. You have to change how you look at the world bro or sis.

I'd like to think I'm making an educated choice on weather or not to believe in God or not. I've looked at both sides and evaluated the individual arguements (I use this term as that's the term philosophers use). If I decide that the existance of God is unproven then why should I be condemned to Hell? This is the point I'm trying to get at. Again you cannot say this is an easy choice.

Well, it's obviously not an easy choice. The Bible acknowledges that fact. If it was easy the majority of the world population would be Christian. But if you are going to wait on irrrefutable scientific proof to believe in God, I wish you all the best. I can see the proof everywhere. You have to ask Jesus to enter your heart before you an see the proof. That's why it's not easy. Atheists think they understand us Christians so well, but if they did, they'd be Christians themselves. Lata.

 

[MarcAC]

Originally posted by DefSkeptic
MarcAC-
I see what you mean, some concepts need a lot more faith than others. The ones that take less faith provide more evidence, thus strengthening its validity.

Well you need to have faith in your evidence. When comes down to the wire all you rely on is pure simple 'blind' faith. What about the methodology in procuring the evidence? And then the theory behind the methodology? Get it?

God either exists or he doesn't. Fact or no fact. We are not sure, no matter how much one convinces themselves. We can examine what evidence has been put forth and go in the general trend of what we believe to be true from this evidence.

Evidence is always open to varying interpretations. You need to use your God given Spirit.

Faulty in that I believe you are coming to a premature conclusion without knowing all the pertinent information needed to convince oneself of the "fact" of God.

I have all the info I need.

This is why I think you should at least consider my point of view.

I have. I just don't accept it.

Dont you think a proper understanding of the universe we inhabit is necessary for a conclusion to be made? If you dont know how the universe operates then you shouldnt be so eager to attach vague concepts to the mechanisms that created and maintain our universe.

I don't know about you, but I have approximately one hundred years on this planet. I can't wait around that long. Have you read the Bible and Revelations? I might miss the boat.

Can you describe to me your God. Is it the Christian God or something else?

God as seen from a Christian's perspective, yes.

If it is indeed the Christian God, I think myself and many others can vouch that this is an intellectually infantile concept.

Feel free. It should be interesting.

 

[DefSkeptic]

MarcAC-

I don't know about you, but I have approximately one hundred years on this planet. I can't wait around that long. Have you read the Bible and Revelations? I might miss the boat.

And I think there is no boat to miss. Fear is not a good way to decide on to what you will hold to be true. I do believe you do not entirely subscribe to religion due to fear, there are many reasons you probably believe, but to let fear even come into the equation will likely sway your view on opposing ideas(resilance to opposite views) since you believe the price to pay for not believing is eternal damnation. If I thought that also, I would join you in self deception, its a great defense mechanism.

Feel free. It should be interesting.

And would be extremely long. There are bits and pieces scattered throughout this forum, to list them all would be mentally taxing on my part and redundant.

 

[Horseman42]

MarcAC,

By the way FYI I'm a bro!

Anyways you said...

No, that doesn't cut it. As I stated before you can have all the power and not choose to exercisee it. In other words you can run at 40 km/hr and you run at 20 km/hr. Does it mean that you can't run at 40 km/hr? No, you just choose not to.

Exactly my point. So if I could run at 40km/hr I can still choose to run at 20km/hr. Can I still run at 40, yes I can.

But when you think of this in the context of the example I've stated...

1) God wants all to come and be with him in heaven
2) God is all powerful and must be able to do 1)
3) Therefore all must come to heaven

It's either that or he chooses not to allow some people into heaven.

Well this idea is new to me. Can you elaborate a bit?

A perfect being is said to have no possible wants or desires. This is simply because all wants and desires must have already been fullfilled. A perfect being for example cannot be hungry because he/she/it has no desire to eat. To put it simply a perfect being would have already fullfilled all of it's desires to be considered perfect. It's just a theory though.

But the sun doesn't choose if it will come up or not does it? You see you have to look at it as us working in tandem with God. Not God controlling us - or us joyriding through life like many people do. So it is one big - and apparently - static system.

Well we seam to agree that if God is all knowing then he must know all human choices before hand. At least we have some common ground here.

Perhaps we differ in what we see as a divine plan. When I think of a plan for example walking to the store. There are many things in my life that may get in the way of my plan (such as emergencies, or other unexpected circumstances). In God's case there can be no unexpected circumstances (he's all knowing). So any plan he makes goes off without a hitch.

When I say in the case of a divine plan I'm talking everything to armagedeon, to someone tying their shoelace. Everything is already planned. Perhaps what you're saying is you agree with this "plan" on a global scale like armagedeon and not on a very limited scale like what sort of color of shirt you wore this morning.

Sure I have. I know exactly how you guys think. Everyone does know of his existence, they just refuse to acknowledge Him. They want nothing to do with Him. Remeber that Bible passage the EvilPoet posted above? That's basically what it is saying. Evidence of God is all around you.

I'm not refusing to acknowledge his existance as much as I'm searching for proof. Please tell me what you mean by "evidence of God is all around you"

Well, it's obviously not an easy choice. The Bible acknowledges that fact. If it was easy the majority of the world population would be Christian.

Then logically you must conclude it's unfair to be solely judged at our death on weather or not we believe in god. If this is largely the only determining factor then many people would believe simply out of fear, and I'm sure this is not what God wants.

 

[MarcAC]

Originally posted by Horseman42
MarcAC,
Exactly my point. So if I could run at 40km/hr I can still choose to run at 20km/hr. Can I still run at 40, yes I can.

But when you think of this in the context of the example I've stated...

1) God wants all to come and be with him in heaven
2) God is all powerful and must be able to do 1)
3) Therefore all must come to heaven

It's either that or he chooses not to allow some people into heaven.

Becasue through their denial of Him they have chosen not to go to heaven. That's why He gives you a choice. Free will. He might want you to choose the right thing but He can't choose for you. That's the consequence of free will.

A perfect being is said to have no possible wants or desires. This is simply because all wants and desires must have already been fullfilled. A perfect being for example cannot be hungry because he/she/it has no desire to eat. To put it simply a perfect being would have already fullfilled all of it's desires to be considered perfect. It's just a theory though.

Just a hypothesis. And it sounds logical, though you would have to consider that perfect being to be in a perfect environment - which God isn't - because God is also here with us - so He is in our environment and outside of it [omnipresence]. And then it would end up contradictory because on a time scale the being would have had to have desires at some point in time.

Perhaps we differ in what we see as a divine plan. When I think of a plan for example walking to the store. There are many things in my life that may get in the way of my plan (such as emergencies, or other unexpected circumstances). In God's case there can be no unexpected circumstances (he's all knowing). So any plan he makes goes off without a hitch.

When I say in the case of a divine plan I'm talking everything to armagedeon, to someone tying their shoelace. Everything is already planned. Perhaps what you're saying is you agree with this "plan" on a global scale like armagedeon and not on a very limited scale like what sort of color of shirt you wore this morning.

Yes and No. In essence, everything is planned - from the atom of nitrogen I will inhale tomorrow to where on the earth I'll be in 2010 - if anywhere. However, due to my free will I will still choose to do whatever - because that is the only way the plan will function. Hard to swallow - but that's how I see it. And it is not contradictory in any way. This one even divides Christians so it's a tough one.

I'm not refusing to acknowledge his existance as much as I'm searching for proof. Please tell me what you mean by "evidence of God is all around you"

The universe itself, me, my life, you, everythig. All of creation. You have to have Jesus in your heart to see it the way I do.

Then logically you must conclude it's unfair to be solely judged at our death on weather or not we believe in god. If this is largely the only determining factor then many people would believe simply out of fear, and I'm sure this is not what God wants.

That's not what you'll be judged by. In fact, from the Christian view we all know, inherrently, that God exists, we simply refuse to acknowledge His presence - those who do. And we trump up all kinds of excuses to justify this. "God is a monster"; "God is unfair"; "God is evil". You don't want to be with someone when you treat them like that now do you? So He just sends you to the alternative. Because through your choices you state; "That's where I want to go - as far away from You as possible". Lata bro

 

[MarcAC]

Originally posted by DefSkeptic
MarcAC-
And I think there is no boat to miss. Fear is not a good way to decide on to what you will hold to be true. I do believe you do not entirely subscribe to religion due to fear, there are many reasons you probably believe, but to let fear even come into the equation will likely sway your view on opposing ideas(resilance to opposite views) since you believe the price to pay for not believing is eternal damnation. If I thought that also, I would join you in self deception, its a great defense mechanism.

Of course it isn't. I do not hold what I know to be true on fear - even if you knew it were untrue you'd still make it look like you believe. Muslims do that. I'm a Christian - God knows me inside out therefore I can hide nothing from Him. Jesus died for me, I accepted that, because my conscience tells me it's the right thing to do. Do you have a conscience?

And would be extremely long. There are bits and pieces scattered throughout this forum, to list them all would be mentally taxing on my part and redundant.

Well it shouldn't be. I would think 'intellectually infantile would mean naive and simple. In any event, I remain unconvinced. BTW - Jesus said that those who do not accept His kingdom as a child would never enter it.

 

[DefSkeptic]

MarcAC-

Do you have a conscience?

Of course I do. A conscience comes with being mentally developed. The ultimate cause of conscience comes from our socially dependant heritage. Just like we need eyes to see, we need a conscience to interact properly with other members of our species. The trait is passed down the generations thru genes.

Well it shouldn't be. I would think 'intellectually infantile would mean naive and simple. In any event, I remain unconvinced

I agree it shouldn't be, but the problem is any good point can have a illogical rebuttle and this leads many to believe their point of view is still in contention. This is especially prevalent when dealing with a concept such as God where anything can be a possilbity in some people's minds.

 

[Horseman42]

MarcAC,

Hi again thanks for taking the time to respond to my post.

Becasue through their denial of Him they have chosen not to go to heaven. That's why He gives you a choice. Free will. He might want you to choose the right thing but He can't choose for you. That's the consequence of free will.

Again I have to ask who would choose to go to hell? I once heard that athiests often say things like "better to rule in hell than be god's slave in heaven" and other such nonsense.

What I'm saying is the concept of God is clearly not something that is known to everyone. Also some may reject the notion based on arguements philosophers have had throughout the ages, or because of their upbringing. Why should these people who clearly did not have a totally unbiased choice in the matter, go to hell to suffer for all eternity?

Just a hypothesis. And it sounds logical, though you would have to consider that perfect being to be in a perfect environment - which God isn't - because God is also here with us - so He is in our environment and outside of it [omnipresence]. And then it would end up contradictory because on a time scale the being would have had to have desires at some point in time.

Well it's just a theory, and it's not without problems. I'm not totally for or against it, just thought I would share what I've heard.

Yes and No. In essence, everything is planned - from the atom of nitrogen I will inhale tomorrow to where on the earth I'll be in 2010 - if anywhere. However, due to my free will I will still choose to do whatever - because that is the only way the plan will function. Hard to swallow - but that's how I see it. And it is not contradictory in any way. This one even divides Christians so it's a tough one.

Yes I suppose we can both agree that it's a tough concept.

I see what your saying here. Your choices are part of the overall plan. However are they part of the divine plan set out by God? If you do you either have to say you have no free will or you are God or part of God. Clearly this is blasphemous according to the Christian religion.

That's not what you'll be judged by. In fact, from the Christian view we all know, inherrently, that God exists, we simply refuse to acknowledge His presence - those who do. And we trump up all kinds of excuses to justify this. "God is a monster"; "God is unfair"; "God is evil". You don't want to be with someone when you treat them like that now do you? So He just sends you to the alternative. Because through your choices you state; "That's where I want to go - as far away from You as possible".

First off weather or not God exists I would never call him a monster. Secondly you are forgetting God is all good and should forgive me of my simple wrong doing such as calling him names.

I once heard God doesn't put people in hell they put themselves in hell. Meaning some people detest God so much they would rather go to hell. However this concept has problems as well.

If I had a child would wanted to comit suicide. I would try everything in my power to prevent this from happening. I would be concidered neglient, if not very wrong for me not to. If people wanted to go to hell on their own free will God should prevent this from happening if he's as good of a father as us humans are. What your saying is he doesn't.

If I were a Christian I would not like it much in heaven if I knew there were people suffering for all of eternity in Hell. I would feel disgusted and ashamed, regardless of what they did in life.

 

[Dougermouse]

First a word from our sponsor...
whether is the word we're all looking for... weather is like rain, and sorry to get all spelling anal on you, and I know english isn't everyone's primary (or first language), but its one of my pet peeves

Now back to our thread...
It bugs me to no end when people think that just because some people don't choose to accept religion that the non-believers are void of morals or character. Not only have I a conscience, but mine is by my own forming and is not out of fear. My conscience is from the 21st century not the 1st century. Going to church does not make you a better person. Don't make me cite references on that one, cuz it goes WAAAAYYYYY back.
Secondly, kudos to you MarcAC for finding something that makes you sleep better at night. Religion fills in the missing gaps for you like why did that family of 5 die in a fire or why did the shuttle burn up. The phrase "All part of God's plan" or "It is His way" is just a mental safety valve to help people who can't deal with mentally overwhelming flood of things that is life. Knowing that all this pain and suffering is part of a bigger plan helps a WHOLE bunch of people that can't get their brain around the "Stuff happens" notion and its outcomes. Jesus may be in your heart, but the real location feeling the difference is that your brain can see suffering and not have to process it at a deeper level. Of course if enough people did process it at that deeper level maybe we wouldn't have so much of it.
Religion in my experience has been either indocrinated in a such a young age that they don't or can't challenge it, or it comes later as an answer to a threat or a dam against fear. The last three people I know that turned to religion (2 Christian, 1 Muslim) was 1 for the safety of the children (she felt she turned away from God and if she didn't go back the children would be punished, and self-fulling prophecy, the children are fine), 1 for making up to God (in his case Allah) for his child having diabetes, the last was either turn to Jesus or get a divorce, because if you love Jesus you won't keep screwing your secretary at work. Not exactly a fine list, and they all have in common that they now look down on me as going to hell as soon as it's game over. Which is really nice since one of them is my wife! I don't teach to my kids that mommy is wasting her time(IMHO), but they get a strong dose of Daddy's going to hell. Nice huh?

If God has a plan and His will be done, then why pray? No angel will counter the plan, God's plan must be perfect, so what does prayer do? Are you really asking God to change his plan for little old you? Are you saying that your prayer and the alterations you are requesting are bigger than the plan? When I see my wife praying and then "God gives her the answer" is typically just when she slows down and thinks the answer comes to her. It happens to me all the time, but I call it weighing the options, she calls it prayer. Why is so tough to just say "I'll think about it"?. Also prayer seems to disjoins people from their own actions and the responsiblity for their actions since "its was God's way". A woman in the US is being tried for killing her son because "God told her during prayer he had sinned and had to die". Before you call her insane, remember that Mohammed (of Islam fame) spent time in an insane asylum and he is the father of the one of the biggest religions in the world.

I also would never call God anything disrespectful (see I even capitalize as necessary), but please don't call me out with lines like the conscience line. Don't think for a second that I am inferior because my belief system is different. I know the religion:none crowd can be harsh on the religion:Yes! crowd at times, but its only because the vast quantities of believers give it to us in spades. How would you like it if atheists came to your house twice a month and looked to convert you? Yet I have to accept it with a smiling face. Also try dealing with the notion that all the believers on this list believe all the non-believers (and in some cases the wrong believers) are going to hell. You can't tell me that doesn't prejudice you against us even though we've never met. I just think your wasting your Sunday morning, you think I have a fate coming my way worst than death. To me that is worst part about religion. Those without can and are more forgiving of those with than the other way around.
A little tolerance can go along way, we should all try to get some. (That goes out to everyone on the list BTW).

Sorry for the long posting, this topic has been buggin me for a while, and thanks to list for listening. And MarcAC, I really do mean the kudos to you for finding your happiness. If it works for you, great, but please don't share. I got my happiness another way, thank you all very much.

 

[Clockwood]

As for the 7 days thing one just has to remember a day of god's time most likly does not coincide with our own. When he started earth didnt exist so its rotation could not have determined any day. When he started TIME might not have existed.

Of course most of the genisis account accuratly depits (if you arent too literal) what scientists believe happened after the big bang.

 

[EvilPoet]

"a day of god's time..."

"But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day
is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years
as one day." -2 Peter 3:8 (KJV)

Thought this might be of interest ...

When Did Moses Write, Or Compile, The Book Of Genesis?

Another important issue concerning the writing of the Book of
Genesis concerns when it was written. If Moses was the author
or compiler of the events in Genesis then the book was written
during his lifetime. Moses lived during a period of time that is
known as the Late Bronze Age (about 1550 to 1200 B.C).

Area Of Dispute

The exact dates when Moses lived are still a matter of controversy.
The reason is that the precise date of the Exodus of the children
of Israel from Egypt is still debated. Two different dates, 1445 B.C.
or 1290 B.C., are put forward to be the date of the Exodus.

[More...]

 

[MarcAC]

My regards, you are one of the most apparently polite persons I've ever encountered on this site. Man, I feel ashamed.

Originally posted by Horseman42
Again I have to ask who would choose to go to hell? I once heard that athiests often say things like "better to rule in hell than be god's slave in heaven" and other such nonsense.

Anwer within the question.

What I'm saying is the concept of God is clearly not something that is known to everyone. Also some may reject the notion based on arguements philosophers have had throughout the ages, or because of their upbringing. Why should these people who clearly did not have a totally unbiased choice in the matter, go to hell to suffer for all eternity?

O.k. Let me tell you how I see it. The bible indicates that inherrently, we all know God, and the certainty of His existence. Romans 1:19 > They know everything that can be known about God, because God has shown it all to them. The Bible states that you have to have faith in God to believe - that is almost everywhere in it. In my opinion, you have to have faith to believe in anything at all - I've sorresponded with these 'challengers' right down to the wire if you take a look at the "God Does Exist" thread you'll see. When it get's down to the wire - anything you believe you believe on pure and simple faith - no matter what - when you disect all the evidence and model and theory and hypothesis it all comes down to faith - my favourite example - How do you know you do not exist in a matrix at the moment? How do you know human reasoning produces anything which correlates to actual reality? Is our world really as we see it, or did we just invent it from our reasoning? When it comes down to pure and simple faith - it comes down to a pure and simple choice - put your faith in man's reasoning or put your faith in God. But as I said - for example - about the Carib Indian kid who lived back in the 13th cnetury and would be asking "What's a Jesus, can I eat it?" - I honestly don't know - but I'm investigating. Honestly, though, IMO, people like you now have no excuse of ignorance - cause guys like me are around - the messengers.

I see what your saying here. Your choices are part of the overall plan. However are they part of the divine plan set out by God? If you do you either have to say you have no free will or you are God or part of God. Clearly this is blasphemous according to the Christian religion.

Yes, they are a part of the Divine plan. But what you stated would be like stating that the workmen who build a building is/are the architect/s. They aid in fullfilling the architect's plan, but that doesn't mean they are the architect.

Secondly you are forgetting God is all good and should forgive me of my simple wrong doing such as calling him names.

That's His offer through Christ, forgiveness. But you have to accept it to get it right? If you don't accept it how can you get it?

If I had a child would wanted to comit suicide. I would try everything in my power to prevent this from happening. I would be concidered neglient, if not very wrong for me not to. If people wanted to go to hell on their own free will God should prevent this from happening if he's as good of a father as us humans are. What your saying is he doesn't.

Good one. But isn't God trying to stop you right now? "Accept Jesus as your Lord and Saviour." How many times have you been adressed with that phrase? You can call this number one - just in case. But if that kid is determined to commit sucide, can you reeeeally stop him/her? If that were the case we can blame all juvenile suicides on parental negligence right? In any event, God is speaking through your conscience, at all times - poor parents; they can't be everywhere at once. That is the consequence of our freedom - it is epitomized in the "Garden of Eden" scenario. If God intervened, we wouldn't be individuals, we wouldn't choose, we'd just be like rocks - totally unaware of ourselves.

If I were a Christian I would not like it much in heaven if I knew there were people suffering for all of eternity in Hell. I would feel disgusted and ashamed, regardless of what they did in life.

What you have to grasp is that these people want to be there - until they get there - they chose to go there. They have heard/hear/are hearing/seeing/will be hearing that it isn't a nice place - it's a place for evil. Why not just accept God's gift through Jesus who died for us, because He loves us sooooo much? Or at least try. Seek God and you will find Him. Yeah, I will pity those who are there - providing I don't end up there and providing I will have any recollection of my life - etc. I don't see why I would feel ashamed, or disgusted - but I'd definitely pity them. You see, we all have the opportunity to choose. If we're both driving on a cliffside road and I see a corner coming up I keep telling you about the corner, I'm saying you go over there you die, I say slow down, I slow down, and turn. You? You keep speeding; "Auugh that's no corner, I can make that turn at top speed! And if not - I'll just sprout wings and fly!" VROOOOM. I'd pity you, but feel disgusted or ashamed? Why?

Originally posted by DefSkeptic
The trait is passed down the generations thru genes.

Sure, if you say so (Hint hint).

I agree it shouldn't be, but the problem is any good point can have a illogical rebuttle and this leads many to believe their point of view is still in contention. This is especially prevalent when dealing with a concept such as God where anything can be a possilbity in some people's minds.

Logic is a function of knowledge. Man's knowledge is far from complete - in fact - we don't even know if it is getting any farther from complete or incomplete. The corollary is that everyones view is indeed in contention at all times. You're dealing with a Christian (go figure), so you address the 'concept' of the Christian God, wouldn't you think? I remain unconvinced about your infantile concept.

 

[Horseman42]

MarcAC,

My regards, you are one of the most apparently polite persons I've ever encountered on this site. Man, I feel ashamed.

Again like I said before I'm just trying to find the answers. I think if we're both polite about it we can learn a great deal from each other.

O.k. Let me tell you how I see it. The bible indicates that inherrently, we all know God, and the certainty of His existence.

This is true. What you have to realize is it apparent for everyone? How could you know? What about people who are unable to think properly because of a mental illness, or a baby, or young child? Your right I have no reason personally to "not believe" based on this. What I'm more interested in is knowing how God deals with these "special" cases. If they go to heaven then you cannot conclude all need Jesus to enter heaven. If they go to hell I have a real problem with that because they never had the possibility to make the choice.

Yes, they are a part of the Divine plan. But what you stated would be like stating that the workmen who build a building is/are the architect/s. They aid in fullfilling the architect's plan, but that doesn't mean they are the architect.

Then in reality what your saying is that we still have no choices.

That's His offer through Christ, forgiveness. But you have to accept it to get it right? If you don't accept it how can you get it?

Because God is all good. Let me put it another way if someone was calling names at me and talking about me in a negative way I would never think to hurt them. All good christians are taught to "turn the other cheek". If I'm expected to do it why can't god, regardless if I except Christ or not.

don't see why I would feel ashamed, or disgusted - but I'd definitely pity them. You see, we all have the opportunity to choose. If we're both driving on a cliffside road and I see a corner coming up I keep telling you about the corner, I'm saying you go over there you die, I say slow down, I slow down, and turn. You? You keep speeding; "Auugh that's no corner, I can make that turn at top speed! And if not - I'll just sprout wings and fly!" VROOOOM. I'd pity you, but feel disgusted or ashamed? Why?

I see what your saying here. I honestly can't believe someone would choose to go to hell on their own free will.

The reason why I would feel disgusted is that if people were decieved to believe in a false religion or idea it would make me feel horrible that they were suffering in hell. There are many arguements against theism. Some of them are very good if you've ever read them.

Perhaps the person was blind and could not see the corner, in the case that they believed another religion. Perhaps they didn't see a corner but another section of road, in the case of mental illness. You don't know all these things. Hence I would feel terrible and ashamed to be granted entrance to heaven. That person who drove off the cliff could have easily been me!

 

[DefSkeptic]

MarcAC-

Sure, if you say so (Hint hint).

What are you getting at? Interested to hear (not sarcastic)

Logic is a function of knowledge. Man's knowledge is far from complete - in fact - we don't even know if it is getting any farther from complete or incomplete.

I totally agree with you that man's knowledge is far from complete. But we do know if we are advancing or just running in place. We can apply what we "know" and see if it fits, this is a very simplistic way to see this, but we tend to hold on to the theories that work best and disgard the ones that are not as strong. Knowledge is a work in progress, we need to work with what we got.

A sidenote, I honestly appreciate your sophisticated, intelligent responses, I do not see this as you vs me, I think I can confidently say that we both are legitamately on the quest for truth. Thanks for your responses.

 

[MarcAC]

Originally posted by DefSkeptic
MarcAC-
What are you getting at? Interested to hear (not sarcastic)

Well how do you know for sure? Has there been any genes discovered which relate to conscience? I just can say I don't know.

But we do know if we are advancing or just running in place. We can apply what we "know" and see if it fits, this is a very simplistic way to see this, but we tend to hold on to the theories that work best and disgard the ones that are not as strong. Knowledge is a work in progress, we need to work with what we got.

You know, I have always thought of this. Our whooole system of knowledge. Didn't we invent it? It struck me with Newton and that other German? guy, who 'discovered'/invented calculus. It would seem to me that our knowledge base - the foundations - define the direction in which our theories will take us. You get me? So if the foundations were a liiiiittle different then we may see things toootally different. So we place our trust on a few guys that say "Hey, maybe it's like this!" You try it, it works. But then look at calculus - a few nuances in the notation and method of development and you get the same thing. I don't know if you see what I'm getting at. It's like you build bridges [fundamental theories] to link islands [evidence/observation] but then once you build the bridge you never look back and see that you could build a boat and discover the sea in between or a sub or an aeroplane or even better a space plane. Get it? Look at what you'd be missing!? SETI people are assuming that aliens will even know what the hell a radio frequency is or the hydrogen spectrum. Oh brother, enough of me. I'm out. I saw a quote from Einstein on this forum somewhere which basically states you might discard a theory and realise in the future you couldn't live without it. Crap... I continued... I'm done.

A sidenote, I honestly appreciate your sophisticated, intelligent responses, I do not see this as you vs me, I think I can confidently say that we both are legitamately on the quest for truth. Thanks for your responses.

Same here. IMO, though, without God, you'll never find it. If I didn't have God to say well, "Hey I'm close", I'd have nothing.

 

[DefSkeptic]

MarcAC-

Well how do you know for sure? Has there been any genes discovered which relate to conscience? I just can say I don't know.

Ive read up on some evolutionary psychology and thats where I received that information, but to be fair I will include some information from the book I have read.

Evolutionary psychology is a new branch of science, which studies how evolution has shaped our psychological as well as biological reality. We now know that one of the things which unites human beings everywhere is that we all do have a conscience, we all do feel guilt. Except, perhaps in the case of brain damage, as in fetal alcohol syndrome, where it is believed that alcohol damages the part of the brain where conscience is physically located.

Evolutionary psychologist Robert Wright uses the analogy of a radio with knobs to describe how our genes and natural selection work to produce great variations in what we feel guilty about. We all have genes, hard-wiring, for a conscience. But the knobs are tuned differently. One person's guilt knob may be set low and another person's painfully high.

But why do the contents of conscience vary? Well, it seems that a malleable conscience also serves the purpose of natural selection, because it allows for interaction with the environment in a way to maximize survival of one's gene pool.Thus, say the evolutionary psychologists, different moral strategies are needed for different situations.

This is as detailed a description I can currently give, granted it might not be entirely convincing but I hope it helps.

Newton and that other German? guy, who 'discovered'/invented calculus.

Is Leibniz the name you are looking for?

It would seem to me that our knowledge base - the foundations - define the direction in which our theories will take us. You get me?

I got you. Good points made.

IMO, though, without God, you'll never find it.

My quest is a work in progress, who knows what the future holds.

 

[DefSkeptic]

MacAC-

More information regarding conscience-

The neurological basis of the conscience has been discovered. It is
this: A high level of residual activity in the cholinergic system of
the inferior parietal lobe and hippocampus, relative to other areas.These areas create a perception of, and aversion to, injustice. They are also the locus of learning by imitation and the closely related function, empathy. Acetylcholine is the main neurotransmitter of the conscience, and cholinergic-enhancing drugs enhance the conscience. What a person derives pleasure from alters their perception of their environment by creating a residual focus. The areas of the brain that cause the conscience are the same areas that are used by the exploration drive, in which pleasure is derived from things that are complex, innovative, geometrical, or mysterious. The exploration drive
is also the cause of curiosity and true creativity. The drug
combination of piracetam and choline increases the strength of the exploration drive and therefore increases the strength of the
conscience. That drug combination is not illegal, addictive, or
otherwise dangerous.

 

[MarcAC]

Originally posted by Horseman42
MarcAC,
This is true. What you have to realize is it apparent for everyone? How could you know? What about people who are unable to think properly because of a mental illness, or a baby, or young child?

In my opinion we don't need to think to know - it's your conscience - it's like instinct.

Your right I have no reason personally to "not believe" based on this. What I'm more interested in is knowing how God deals with these "special" cases. If they go to heaven then you cannot conclude all need Jesus to enter heaven. If they go to hell I have a real problem with that because they never had the possibility to make the choice.

Jesus died for all. You see, in the beginning, from the 'Fall of Man' - or man deciding "Hey I don't need you anymore" He damned the future representatives of his species. That 'tree of kowledge of good and evil', is in essence just knowledge of good and evil - and it comes with our free will. Now when man 'ate of that tree' or decided "Hey I know what's right and what's wrong, I don't need to follow what God says" he turned away from God. Now all are born with this knowledge of good and evil - which God told man to stay away from - so all are tainted by that original sin - and all are in need of redemption. That's why Jesus died for all. Now about those who couldn't decide - of course you can't expect them to go to hell. But all need Jesus. I can give you scriptural support of everything I just stated.

Then in reality what your saying is that we still have no choices.

Saw that coming. So are you saying that the builders in the analogy would have no choice in how they carry out their duties? I think they would be able to choose - I knew this would be a crappy analogy - but they wouldn't be able to choose anything away from God's plan or else they'd contradict it. That comes right back to me saying it is like we work in tandem with God. The problem with this analogy is that while the workmen would have to do the plan like the architect wants it or otherwise disrupt it, we don't have to do exactly what God wants - we have a choice - However, our choices will directly influence the end result of God's divine plan - and on a timeline - which God can see the end of - the plan is set as He knows what choices will be made already.

Because God is all good. Let me put it another way if someone was calling names at me and talking about me in a negative way I would never think to hurt them. All good christians are taught to "turn the other cheek". If I'm expected to do it why can't god, regardless if I except Christ or not.

You know it is said that one of the worst sins you can commit is actually being a Christian and cursing God to His face. But anyway, accepting Christ follows directly from above - and also for you to obtain forgiveness you still have to accept it through Christ. The Christian 'turns the other cheek' meaning he forgives and isn't aggresive.

The reason why I would feel disgusted is that if people were decieved to believe in a false religion or idea it would make me feel horrible that they were suffering in hell.

And it would make me feel horrible, and it would make God feel horrible - but it's still their choice - deception or not - man was decieved by the devil in the beginning - he still knew what God would want.

There are many arguements against theism. Some of them are very good if you've ever read them.

I've read a few. I'm interested in your arguments against God's existence. If yours are any of those 'good' ones - post them. Interestingly most arguements I encounter serve to strengthen my faith in God - cause it all comes down to the wire of beleive or don't. It's not easy - but such is life.

Perhaps the person was blind and could not see the corner, in the case that they believed another religion. Perhaps they didn't see a corner but another section of road, in the case of mental illness. You don't know all these things. Hence I would feel terrible and ashamed to be granted entrance to heaven. That person who drove off the cliff could have easily been me!

You mean a blind leadheaded person, 'cause I'm sure he would've heard me telling him. No? Well with mental illness, I would feel ashamed for letting him drive in the first place. I know a lady with alzhiemers - and a lot has faded - but not her zeal for worshipping God - it's incredible to me. What od you think?