God's commandment?

[Sarkus]

We must use reason and logic as much as we do the holy spirit, because God is not knowable.

LOL!
In the same sentence you claim that your God is "not knowable" and yet say that you must use reason and logic.
Do you not see that belief in something that is "not knowable" is absolutely unreasonable and illogical?

 

[(Q)]

At one time, it was also socially acceptable to keep slaves, but we all agree that it is an immoral act now. But is it?

It was as immoral then as it is now but since those who kept slaves were good, god fearing Christians, it was ok, right?

[qoute]Do you suppose we are now to back down and to permit you to make a dishonorable proslavery peace after all the bloodshed and all the sacrifice of life and property? It cannot be. Such revolutions never go backwards, and if God is just, and I think he is, we shall ultimately triumph. ~~ Bengamin Wade - Radical Rebulicans. [/quote]

We cannot assume that killing thousands was not a moral act because we do not know all the circumstances.

Nonsense. There is nothing moral about killing people. Surely, you must see that.

So, you don't understand God's morality.

Based on scriptures, god has no morality.

See what I mean? Spitting on his face still is acknowledging God, and you may be more apt to believe during times of adversity.

No, I did not acknoledge god with spit, he would have had to already been shown to exist before I did such a thing. Currently, he has not been shown to exist, so my spit shall remain intact.

If I were more apt to believe in god during times of adversity, that would merely show that I am a weak person who can't handle the realities of life.

God doesn't make heroes for the heroes' sake, but so that others will see the glory of God work through another life and praise God.

I don't get it, god kills people to make heros so that we may see his glory? Come now, that makes absolutely no sense. And when he decides to kill you or your family in order to make a shining example to others, will you still worship him?

Do you remember 9/11 in America? There was much good that came from the piles of rubble.

What came from the rubble of 9/11 was death and destruction. How is that good?

Do you remember Tokyo? There is more good that comes from tragedy than the tragedy's pain. Adversity is a bitter-sweet pill.

Again, I am aghast you actually believe that god creates tradegies so that some good will arise? Sorry, that makes no sense whatsoever.

Well, we were made in God's image.

That statement contradicts everything you've said thus far. If we were made in gods image, we wouldn't need to be slaughtered needlessly by the same god in order to create heros and see his glory.

If I embraced reality, I'd have to take drugs, join self-help groups and all sorts of therapy to channel all this stuff of life.

Channel what stuff? Why would you need drugs and therapy?

In short, I'd have to become just like everyone else...and I wouldn't have no reason to supress my selfish desires other than logic.

What do mean 'like everyone else?' Logic would curb your desires, that's what logic is all about.

The problem with logic, is it fails when emotion is present. People do stupid things riding on their emotions.

You've been watching too much Star Trek. Logic would only fail if one were to allow their emotions to control them. Do you let your emotions control you?

We all need God, or else we have to fill the hole with other things....

No, we don't, that is absolutely untrue. You can fill the 'hole' (whatever that is) with reality.

some of those things are more potent, with harmful side effects, than others.

Such as what? Explain?

If I didn't have my safety net, I would have to cope with life like most people. Why should we decide to just cope. Sure, it could be considered cowardice not to want to cope, but it takes more courage to believe in God and give up your desires, than to just fulfill those desires.

So, you choose to live a life of fantasy because you feel you need a safety net. You've never even tried a life without fantasy, how can you know you need a safety net?

It takes no courage to believe in god, it only takes a willingness to suspend ones disbelief. It takes real courage to stand up and be counted as an individual, void of fantasies.

And why wouldn't I choose a safety net if it has never broken on me before?

You've chosen a fantasy world in which to live, it can never be broken because you can simply replace it with more fantasies.

It is broken in the real world, though. That should be evidently apparent to you.

A believer sees the net below and twists and turns as their told in order to land on their back squarely in the net to not injure themselves. So long as the net doesn't break when I fall, I will always trust that it will not break.

Unfortunately, the net does not exist, so you will land hard on the ground, only to late to realize the net was never there.

 

[jayleew]

LOL!
In the same sentence you claim that your God is "not knowable" and yet say that you must use reason and logic.
Do you not see that belief in something that is "not knowable" is absolutely unreasonable and illogical?

The line is not always knowable at all, and never completely. When it isn't at all, we must not be hasty Christians and go burning alleged "witches" and heretics. We must use reason and logic as much as we do the holy spirit, because God is not knowable.

The first two sentences refer to the line, or the morality of a circumstance. In the third sentence, which you are referring to, I meant God's line is not knowable. This line of thinking is why atheists can't understand scripture and think there are inconsistencies. Our current form of communication is inadequate, and you must leave room for error, and let scripture define scripture.

His will is not knowable. God is knowable because he has made himself known to me. Everyone can know God if they are willing to open their mind against what they accept as truth. However, you need a darn good reason to look for something beyond what you think is the truth. I know what position you are in, and there is nothing I can do for you except tell you that we have no real truths as humans, besides that which we cling to because we have evidence that it is true. After experiencing chaos, perhaps you will step away from what you think is reality today.

 

[Adstar]

*************
M*W: Oh, so YOUR god has mercy on me, but jayleew's doesn't? Hmmmm... There was a time when I was very young and impressionable when I believed in God and Jesus. Everyday I prayed my guts out begging for forgiveness for the somewhat less than innocent thoughts I had about people. I prayed for other people and their plights. I always prayed for my children and parents. I never missed going to church. NEVER. I held theological discussions with both protestant ministers and catholic priests, and I've visited the homes of both, and they visited mine. To make a long story short, neither could answer some of my questions, and they basically told me to quit asking. They both told me that some things that couldn't be explained had to be accepted as "mysteries." That answer wasn't good enough for me. If the men of the cloth didn't have the answers, why should I listen to them anymore?

People who look for the truth will never find it from those who refuse to look for the truth. It's the blind leading the blind.

There was the time when I was not in control of my 'senses.' I followed the blind, blindly. What a waste, and the blind are still leading the blind, but I'm not following them anymore. There are no "mysteries" to believe in on faith alone. If it cannot be explained, it didn't happen. It's that simple.

Adstar, like I told jayleew, reread your bible and take note of all the times it refers to stars, planets, sun, moon, signs, constellations, movements, transits and such. It's all myth that's been repeated over and over and over during recorded history. Astrology is myth, just like christianity is myth. How can you live your life believing in a myth?

I don't believe in a myth.

Your problem is you always asked Religious "experts". You went from one religion to another asking human beings. Also you are not prepared to accept that some answers are not available to human beings. No human being knows the mind of God totally, never have and maybe never will. So what you cannot accept is what is and cannot be changed in this life time.

Everyday I prayed my guts out begging for forgiveness for the somewhat less than innocent thoughts I had about people.

Maybe that is because you where a catholic. See a true Christian knows that they are forgiven through their faith in Jesus, we do not need to pray our guts out for forgivness, something we already have. I used to be a catholic too MW and i was forced to pray my guts of using the repetitious prayers like the hail mary. Of course once i read the Words of My Messiah Jesus i found out just what an abomination that kind of praying is to God. Thinking that they will be heard by their many words and engaging in repetitious prayer in public to a dead human called mary. That is against the word of Jesus on 4 counts.

So yes MW the blind where leading you and you where a blind leader also teaching the catechism to others. Thing is MW your still lost still blind still leading the blind with your teachings on the pagan origins of God. You served satan then and you serve satan now only difference is you have just been transferred from one of his companies to another.

Isaiah 24:
18And it shall be That he who flees from the noise of the fear Shall fall into the pit, And he who comes up from the midst of the pit Shall be caught in the snare; For the windows from on high are open, And the foundations of the earth are shaken.

You got out of the pit and now your caught up in a snare MW.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Medicine*Woman]

I don't believe in a myth.

*************
M*W: Neither do I.
*************

Your problem is you always asked Religious "experts". You went from one religion to another asking human beings. Also you are not prepared to accept that some answers are not available to human beings. No human being knows the mind of God totally, never have and maybe never will. So what you cannot accept is what is and cannot be changed in this life time.

*************
M*W: I did not go from one religion to another. So, you are wrong. I don't agree with some answers are not 'available to human beings.' There is no god, so nothing that 'god' may have said would be reliable. You cannot tell me that religious "experts" don't know what they're talking about. They are Masters level scholarly people that I simply do not believe.

Maybe that is because you where a catholic. See a true Christian knows that they are forgiven through their faith in Jesus, we do not need to pray our guts out for forgivness, something we already have. I used to be a catholic too MW and i was forced to pray my guts of using the repetitious prayers like the hail mary. Of course once i read the Words of My Messiah Jesus i found out just what an abomination that kind of praying is to God. Thinking that they will be heard by their many words and engaging in repetitious prayer in public to a dead human called mary. That is against the word of Jesus on 4 counts.

*************
M*W: Don't give me that bullshit. The Catholic Church was the first christian church. There is no other christian church but the Roman Catholic Church. To believe otherwise is a travesty.
*************

So yes MW the blind where leading you and you where a blind leader also teaching the catechism to others. Thing is MW your still lost still blind still leading the blind with your teachings on the pagan origins of God. You served satan then and you serve satan now only difference is you have just been transferred from one of his companies to another.

*************
M*W: jayleew, you are just as blind as the ancient church fathers were. I certainly never served satan, but just to make sure, I became an atheist. You got out of the pit and now your caught up in a snare MW.
*************
No, I'm not caught up in a pit. You are. Only christians can serve satan, not the atheist. There is no such thing as satan. Satan only exists among the stars. You're not willing to accept astrology as the progenitor of monotheistic religion, so you are lost.

All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[(Q)]

Your problem is you always asked Religious "experts". You went from one religion to another asking human beings.

There is no one else to ask other than humans - they're the ones who made it all up in the first place.

Also you are not prepared to accept that some answers are not available to human beings.

It is impossible for you to even speculate on that based on your own assumptions.

No human being knows the mind of God totally, never have and maybe never will.

By saying that, you contradict yourself, again.

So what you cannot accept is what is and cannot be changed in this life time.

Since this lifetime is all we have, your point is moot.

 

[Adstar]

MW just look at the state of your post. What a mess. What’s wrong are you rattled? Did my words shake you up? Are you truly confident in your rejection of the Messiah Jesus? Are you so sure as to stake your eternal destination on it? How long do you have left before you enter into eternity?

There is no room for doubt over the most important decision in our lives MW.

I believe in The Messiah Jesus and i am as confident as i have ever been of the ultimate reality of the WORD OF GOD. Nothing i have ever read in this place has ever shaken my faith.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[c7ityi_]

Are you so sure as to stake your eternal destination on it? How long do you have left before you enter into eternity?

There is no eternal hell or heaven.

There is no room for doubt over the most important decision in our lives MW.

It's not a decision. It's not like an atheist can choose to believe or not to believe.

 

[Sarkus]

Are you truly confident in your rejection of the Messiah Jesus? Are you so sure as to stake your eternal destination on it? How long do you have left before you enter into eternity?

There is no room for doubt over the most important decision in our lives MW.

That smells soooo much of Pascal's Wager.

"Better believe it just in case it's true. If it's not true - no loss. But if it IS true - so many riches!"

 

[Silas]

Hi, folks!

Strange thing. Reading this thread, I find that "my side" in this debate are being snotty and arrogant, whereas jayleew, who has posted more than his fair share of nonsense in the past, comes across as the beacon of reason. So he believes in God? So what? He makes his own decisions about how to interpret the events of his life and unlike many believers does so at least on some basis of rationality. There isn't hard evidence or a completely acceptable explanation for an enormous number of things in the world. So, accepting a God explanation - particularly for the truly inexplicable - from a rational position is perfectly valid, and one shared by many scientists.

The only time jayleew slipped up (from what I managed to digest from everyone's enormous posts) was the following:

It will happen soon. The reestablishment of Isreal spoken from scripture ocurred in 1948. Anywhere from today to 2050, assuming someone born in 1948 might live at least 102 years, the end will come. If I live that long, we'll talk about compassion again.

The history of quite a few eschatological sects should warn any rational person away from any kind of belief that takes the form "This time it's the real thing!" The creation of Israel in 1948 does not necessarily have anything to do with the "establishment of Israel spoken from scripture". Even in these decades, it's not unlikely that the required fullness of the realm of Israel (required in particular by Evangelical Christians) will be somewhat curtailed by the recognition of Palestine. Whither then the day of Armageddon? The entire "Revelation is Literal" belief position of the Evangelical Christian movement (member: George W. Bush) - from which derive the "Rapture" believers and the Left Behind books - puts those very ECs, particularly American ones, into direct conflict with the requirements of Republican Democracy. They also provide a somewhat reductionist view of God. Tell me, jayleew, is the God who speaks to you in your heart, the God that created the limitless Universe, the God who existed before Time and Space - really going to manifest in the flesh and engage in a huge tank battle against "the Antichrist" (who's that, btw? Osama Bin Laden? Saddam? Tony Blair?) on a plain a few miles north of Jerusalem?

Meanwhile, the following is without a doubt the silliest thing I've ever read:

M*W: Paul was probably not a real person either. Tarsus is just too close to "Taurus" and "Alpha Centauri" to be denied.

Tarsus is also pretty damn close to Tarsus, a real place. Alpha Centauri is an astronomical designation, not an astrological one (and consequently was coined well into the modern era) but it was at least derived from the constellation Centaurus (not a Zodiac sign). The very fact that you claim that one place name is similar to not one but two completely separate constellations, weakens the argument dramatically.

 

[jayleew]

At one time, it was also socially acceptable to keep slaves, but we all agree that it is an immoral act now. But is it?

It was as immoral then as it is now but since those who kept slaves were good, god fearing Christians, it was ok, right?

Not in the sense we are talking about. African slaves were not treated properly and were slaves for life, and they had no choice. A slave should only be a slave when the debt is paid, and it should be voluntary. You and I are slaves if we have a mortgage.

[qoute]Do you suppose we are now to back down and to permit you to make a dishonorable proslavery peace after all the bloodshed and all the sacrifice of life and property? It cannot be. Such revolutions never go backwards, and if God is just, and I think he is, we shall ultimately triumph. ~~ Bengamin Wade - Radical Rebulicans. [/quote]

No way, slavery before the civil war was an atrocity.

We cannot assume that killing thousands was not a moral act because we do not know all the circumstances.

Nonsense. There is nothing moral about killing people. Surely, you must see that.

Tell that to a serial killer who has invaded your home, killed your wife, and you have a gun in your hand, while your daughter stands behind you. Morality is subjective. Surely, you must see that circumstances influence morality.

So, you don't understand God's morality.

Based on scriptures, god has no morality.

Hmm..you may have a point there. God is neither moral or immoral? Interesting...

If I were more apt to believe in god during times of adversity, that would merely show that I am a weak person who can't handle the realities of life.

Maybe. Or maybe you lick your wounds because you don't know about Hydrogen Peroxide.

God doesn't make heroes for the heroes' sake, but so that others will see the glory of God work through another life and praise God.

I don't get it, god kills people to make heros so that we may see his glory? Come now, that makes absolutely no sense. And when he decides to kill you or your family in order to make a shining example to others, will you still worship him?

Q, I do not suppose to know anything for certain. I am merely giving you circumstances that change your perspective. It is the difference between optimism and pessimism in cases of tragedy. Who knows the real reason.

Do you remember 9/11 in America? There was much good that came from the piles of rubble.

What came from the rubble of 9/11 was death and destruction. How is that good?

Families came together. Republicans and democrats laid their differences aside. Compassion filled the streets as America came together. God knows that we are apt to look to others for strength in trying times. It is an opprotunity for him to prove himself, and he does, but you don't hear about all of it in the news.

Do you remember Tokyo? There is more good that comes from tragedy than the tragedy's pain. Adversity is a bitter-sweet pill.

Again, I am aghast you actually believe that god creates tradegies so that some good will arise? Sorry, that makes no sense whatsoever.

For the sake of the whole plant, you need to cut off the dead parts, or risk losing the plant. A little yeast makes the whole bread rise. It is a fact the the Bible has a myth that God caused natural disasters to keep the human species alive.

If I embraced reality, I'd have to take drugs, join self-help groups and all sorts of therapy to channel all this stuff of life.

Channel what stuff? Why would you need drugs and therapy?

All the muck of life, everything from a simple as a day at work and all the social pressures that exist. If that is not properly channelled, or a drug taken, it could lead to many things, including a breakdown or worse.

The problem with logic, is it fails when emotion is present. People do stupid things riding on their emotions.

You've been watching too much Star Trek. Logic would only fail if one were to allow their emotions to control them. Do you let your emotions control you?

What are you a robot? Most of the time, my emotions do not control me. Maybe once a month, my children make me upset and I send them to their room for no reason. Everyone has their occasional momentary lapse of reason because of a stressful event. Depending on the severity, emotions like anger can lead a rational man to take revenge and commit murder. It is called temporary insanity. Sure, this could happen to anyone, even me, but the example of when we are not logical all the time....but it is more likely much less severe.

We all need God, or else we have to fill the hole with other things....

No, we don't, that is absolutely untrue. You can fill the 'hole' (whatever that is) with reality.

The "hole" is many things that people fill it with. It is things like feelings of monotony, emptiness, depression, "dry", despairity, feeling small, etc.

These are natural things that people do things to cover it up and fill it. It creates the addictions we have. I'm talking about the addictions beyond drugs, but including them. Everyone has an addiction of some sort, be it computer games, drugs, or anything in between. We're talking about the addiction, not the act of playing a computer game or taking a drug...but when it begins to inadvertantly affect your life.

If I didn't have my safety net, I would have to cope with life like most people. Why should we decide to just cope. Sure, it could be considered cowardice not to want to cope, but it takes more courage to believe in God and give up your desires, than to just fulfill those desires.

So, you choose to live a life of fantasy because you feel you need a safety net. You've never even tried a life without fantasy, how can you know you need a safety net?

Because I have tried. I fell away from God when I was 19. I lost all hope of the existence of God. I lived about a year of unbelieving. It took me finding a babysitter, who already went through what I went through with the Catholic church. She nagged me to try her church, I went once so that she would stop nagging me, and I encountered God that day at the altar.

It takes no courage to believe in god, it only takes a willingness to suspend ones disbelief. It takes real courage to stand up and be counted as an individual, void of fantasies.

Everyone, if they truly want to be free and be an individual needs to not be subject to their desires. Otherwise, they are human, not any different than most people on the planet.

And why wouldn't I choose a safety net if it has never broken on me before?

You've chosen a fantasy world in which to live, it can never be broken because you can simply replace it with more fantasies.

It is broken in the real world, though. That should be evidently apparent to you.

You are right. I don't understand why God pulls the safety net from people, but not on me. I fall like everyone else, but I'm caught in the net. Others seem to not have a net. It is discouraging to me. It means either that God doesn't exist, or that the person did not bend and twist to land in the net. Thankfully, for every time a person missed the net, we have an example of one who was saved by God's net and they will attest to that.

A believer sees the net below and twists and turns as their told in order to land on their back squarely in the net to not injure themselves. So long as the net doesn't break when I fall, I will always trust that it will not break.

Unfortunately, the net does not exist, so you will land hard on the ground, only to late to realize the net was never there.

If that happens it would be a rude awakening to reality. I'm 29 now, we'll see what happens...for now, I will trust in the tried and true.

 

[SnakeLord]

Jayleew: If you get the time, please respond to my reply to you on page 5. Thanks.

 

[jayleew]

Tell me, jayleew, is the God who speaks to you in your heart, the God that created the limitless Universe, the God who existed before Time and Space - really going to manifest in the flesh and engage in a huge tank battle against "the Antichrist" (who's that, btw? Osama Bin Laden? Saddam? Tony Blair?) on a plain a few miles north of Jerusalem?

LOL! I seriously doubt that the end times is depicted well in the dramatized Left Behind novels. In scripture it says that the nations will go to war against the world leader, the antichrist. That seems a likely scenario for the middle east in the future. When Jesus comes he will not do battle with tanks and such.

As far as who the antichrist is, no one knows he has not revealed himself. Scripture hints of the geographical location from which he comes and it points to Rome.

 

[Silas]

That's because at the time, Rome ruled the world. Anybody who takes the mention of Rome seriously is undoubtedly trying to make a sectarian anti-Catholic point which can hardly have been the point of the prophecy. In Revelation, Rome = The Beast = Nero. Rome as the centre of world Christianity for over 1200 years was still yet in the future and beyond the wildest dreams of the most fervent Christian at that time. (In any case, the writer of Revelation undoubtedly thought it was all going to come to pass in his lifetime. I can't remember where I read this, but it goes something like, "Nobody would have been more surprised than St. Paul, had he come back in AD 400, that letters he had written would have obtained the same sanctity as the scripture he himself venerated. Though not half as surprised as he would have been that the world still existed.")

In the Bible writers' day, Sheshak meant Babylon, when you couldn't refer openly to revolt against Babylon. Later they would say Babylon (long abandoned) when they meant Rome. You have to find the equivalent of "Rome" - meaning overbearing ruler - today. Well, it wasn't the British Empire, which came and went. It wasn't the Austro-Hungarian Empire and it wasn't the Soviet Empire. Who does that leave today? (I'm not, however, advocating Bush as the anti-christ, which would be just too delicious an irony.)

 

[jayleew]

Because it is the most common form of people saying they have experienced or have evidence of a god. Visions, dreams and voices - none of which points to anything external. If you have something other than that then feel free to tell me.

I see. I've only had allegedly "heard" God's voice two times in 29 years. And if it was God's voice it wasn't a "voice". It's like nothing I've experienced. It was like about 10 complete sentences that completely explain the intent, content, and emotion that only about 2 stick in your mind. Not like the traditional two-way communication. But, I don't know for sure if it really was God or not.

As far as the other experiences. Those are inumerable coincidences that hint that God exists. Each coincidence just that, but together, they culminate as evidence to me. It is the evidence of a guiding force in my life because it never fails, and is always present. Like, I could ask it this or that and without fail a coincidence would ocurr in response. Sometimes, there is not really a correlation of the event and the prayer that I can see. In those cases, it could be as much as a week until the connection becomes apparent. Even when I don't pray, these happen in response to something I thought about. It is all just too queer, and ocurrs everytime without fail, to not be an external force. If this net were pulled, I would be left with nothing to believe in.

1) Which god are we talking about?

When I capatalize the word "god" I am using it as a pronoun for the Hebrew god.

2) We are humans. A god might not be, but we detect what exists through observation. We use the tools we have and our senses to gain knowledge of that which exists. Sure, we do not know everything - or anywhere near everything, but if we have absolutely nothing to work on other than some old words, (much like the leprechaun), then what exactly is the point in making vast assumptions concerning it, and more tragically, worshipping it? Right now we have nothing - nada - zip. The only people that seemed to know anything were those that thought the world was flat. It is not a surprise that the least knowledgeable people would have the most information regarding sky beings.

I'm going to stick with my Dungeon Master (DM) analogy to explain why I believe in God. If a player of Dungeons and Dragons went through an adventure, the existence of the DM is evidenced through Non Player Characters (NPC)s and monsters. In real life, playing the game, you know the DM is there, but within the game, the DM is the game so he doesn't exist in the realm. But, without the DM, there would be no game.

As a player within the game, it is much like real life. It is only possible for a player within the game to make observances like I do in real life, which is that the adventure is focused. Things happen in a way to lead in one direction. Alone it is not evidence of the existence of a DM, but together with the entire game's events which lead in one direction, a player can postulate that an external force exists. Now, what if a player was to talk to the DM as his or her character, addressing the DM by name. And the DM in turn answered by shifting the events. It is still the same adventure, with the same ending, but by your "prayer" the DM might respond by modifying the present. What if the DM didn't respond to all the players, but only one in this way? To all but the players he responded to, the DM wouldn't exist except for the circustantial coincidences that would be dismissed. Normally, the DM watches the game's progress and if it is changing the ending (which is difficult to do because the players need to have the freedom to role-play) he would intervene. Do you understand my perspective? I would like the DM to prove himself to you all, but I appreciate your position. It is reasonable to not believe in God due to the evidence.

Myth and superstition is natural to man - even more so when those men are utterly ignorant to how things actually are. If you spend some time looking for it, you will find superstition and myth everywhere you go. I play this online mmorpg and much like any community, it is full of myth and superstition. People simply cannot help it. There are chinese whispers that distort a story to such degree whereby it is literally unrecognisable to the actual events, baseless superstitions that form themselves from pure ignorance and so on. A man jumping in a puddle turns into a man that can walk on water and so on.

Good point.

All the evidence and reasons not to believe are why I am saying no one can prove God to you, but God himself. If God exists, rest assured, you will know him one day. If he doesn't, then I will say you were right all along, but would I have played the game any differently knowing that?

Yes. Honestly, I garauntee you that I would be a selfish prick because it is something I battle everyday. I wouldn't be married any longer either, and I think that is a credit to Christianity if you stay the course. And there have have been times when I have been completely discouraged about my future, and God has helped me through that without me going off the deep end. If he exists or not, the idea of God has helped me cope in a perfect way. That is a credit to Christianity. The problem with Christianity is people make it into what they want it to be. That is when you have the Catholic church brushing the dirt under the rug, instead of cleaning it up. You are right, many Christians need a healthy dose of reality and understand the way things are, and not pretend. I admit that this forum has helped me be a better Christian, believe it or not, and it is evidence to me that God exists.

Ok, so let's go with this idea. That now means that there are millions of gods. The oldest god beliefs in the world portray many gods, (indeed monotheism is relatively young), and even female gods, (tiamat etc). The only viable conclusion surely is that there are many many gods and godesses. If every culture featured one being then it would be possible to claim that they are all the same god, but that is simply not the case. Even in the bible we see multiple gods, (not only is that the whole concept of the trinity, {although they would adamantly disagree}, in the very first page of the bible and several times from there we see god speaking in a group setting - "let us go down..." etc)

It is possible that they are the same god. I mean, what if a culture picked up on the fact that god is a conquerer and so called him whatever and depicted the god, concentrating on that aspect, thereby creating rituals and such to worship that god. It is a part of the truth that they made a whole. It is possible for there to be one god. They created different entites for the different characteristics of God and warped the meaning of who God is. It's like someone said I am compassionate. If they were to create a false image of me as compassionate, that would not be who I am completely. And I would be a different man in everyone's eyes because I have different qualities and characteristics. All gods are false images of God. They are all a part of God, but not God.

And as far as the "us" in Genesis. It reinforces the already established concept of the trinity. So, we can either assume that it means there is more than one God, or that the statement is supporting evidence among like evidence that God is a trinity.

You will find many creation stories, many flood stories and so on. If these are actual events then it stands to reason that the earliest of them would be the most accurate, (because they were closer to the actual events). Writing about an event 2000 years down the line is pretty pointless. Right now we would scrap Adam and Eve for the Sumerian stories of Adamu, and would scrap Noah for Utnapishtim. Anyone with even the remotest understanding would realise the inescapable effects of chinese whispers. It is an unavoidable fact of life - even more so over thousands of years. For accuracy we must look towards the originals.

Most researchers believe that the Biblical account is not simply a modification of the Mesopotamian stories but one of several versions of a common story.

Ok, what if you saw it and wrote about it, and I then wrote about it 2000 years later? Would you consider my work as an accurate depiction of the events? Given that these events would have been handed down for millennia from parent to child, parent to child, would you trust me to give an accurate representation of what really happened? Would you trust me to get your name right and other finer details? Other than being able to say there was a flood, would you actually trust a word I said? Add to that the simple fact that when people finally read it 2000 years from now they have no way whatsoever to judge my character. They cannot know if I am on drugs, if I am mentally ill, if I am suffering from any one of a billion issues that might go further to hinder the validity of my work. Would you trust my writing implicitly? What if there was absolutely no corroborating text or evidence? On the other hand what if there were 3 or 4 other texts speaking of the event but all in disagreement to the actual details? As a skeptic, which would you instantly trust? Would you consider any as an accurate representation?

I have contemplated that for years: How could anyone trust the Bible as the word of God given it was written by fallible man, subject to bias of opinion.

This is an important concept that Christians need to hear and accept. They need to not read their Bible and take it at face value. Chances are the culture of the time coined a phrase, or used a metaphore. Perhaps they used sattire, humor, or sarcasm. That is why we have to look at who those people were from anthropology. We need to first understand the mannerisms, the customs, and traditions to understand what in the world someone so long ago was trying to really say. With the Holy Spirit's guidance, we can ascertain the meaning. Unfortunately, most Christians aren't willing to do the amount of work to find the real truth. It would take a lifetime to understand the Bible, from a literary standpoint, for it's content. All this is good, but the Bible should never be your source of faith. One can find God and believe without the Bible. Afterall, they did that for thousands of years. I believe in God because he has proven himself. I believe the Bible is the word of God because I believe in God.

As an example I offer this:

This will show you just how a story can differ, (and lest we forget, all of these people were there witnessing the actual events take place). Ok so you can see a meteorite from Japan and I will give a differing account from England, but we're not talking geographic differences here. By accounts these people were all right there watching a man being crucified. Over such a short period of time and the difference in story is simply astounding. That's without mentioning other details - disagreement in time, last words, etc etc etc.

If you were a skeptic, it would be the very last thing you would 'trust'. These people were supposedly entrusted to tell the story of how god killed himself for the people who acted the way they weren't supposed to even though they had been created that way. If they can't even agree on the very basics, what's left?

Right, I don't trust anyone who wrote the Bible. So, we have to use other external non-biblical sources to define the scriptures' meanings.

So you're saying it's all guesswork?

Everything's guesswork. Nothing is certain to me. Honestly, I still have doubts of God, but he proves me wrong again and again.

There you go. However, 'safe' is not the issue.. honesty is. Is it honest to believe in any god? Again, no. Ok, people want to - yes, just like I want to win the lottery, (and indeed plan out how I'm going to spend it every week), but there is a vast difference between 'want' and 'honesty'.

Outside of the whole spirituality thing, if you don't make Christianity into something it is not, it has beneficial effects on the relationships you have and your outlook on life. It is a great way to stay positive. Honest or not, it is good in its unadulterated form.

So, I don't have any regrets about wasting my life in worshipping God. It just works. He just proves himself. If it didn't work, if I didn't experience God, I would not believe.

That is somehow more irrational than the belief that your god impregnated an earth woman to give birth to one third of himself to then kill himself so he could come to life again and say; "you're forgiven for being human all because I killed myself temporarily"? From there is it any more irrational than the belief that this god will then destroy everything for some reason only to recreate it and make a new earth with a new jerusalem, (of all places), made out of gold and rubies and emeralds and all kinds of nice glittering gems, home to all the good folk, while the sexually immoral, fortune tellers and dogs get to live outside?

Yup. At least it is conceivable. We have no proofs against such. Reincarnation, we have evidence contrary to the idea. How do you increase a population in a system where reincarnation exists? We continue to grow in population, so obviously, there is no reincarnation.

Wow, this is a lot of stuff you have, let me get back and I'll finish responding.

 

[SnakeLord]

I've only had allegedly "heard" God's voice two times in 29 years.

Might I ask why? Is your god the quiet type? Ok, obviously we do not want a being that is going to control us like robots 24/7, given that we have our own brains, but what harm would it do for your god to talk to you, and indeed everyone else, a little more? Once per 15 years is hardly worth mentioning really, and even more put out by the fact you use the word 'allegedly'. I would ask if it is too much for this being to just come down out of the sky and say hello. It doesn't in any way negate anyone's free will, or ability to make their own decisions, and he is not too high and almighty for us to comprehend. We can see clearly from the bible that even ancient nomads were developed enough for him to make himself known. He did come down and sit on a mountain after all, (as just one example). He would certainly cause an end to so much hatred and violence by popping by for a chat on a worldly scale - and as an all loving god, surely he could see the benefit in that? Instead we are asked to believe in this being on the basis that you heard an "alleged" voice twice in 30 years and from other people such as Lori who's god gave her testicle cream and dumped it in her trashcan to help cure a back rash, and The Visitor who's god told him satan had a sexual affair with eve and that we're all half snake as a result.

Further to which that still doesn't tell me what god it is or how many of them there are.

It's like nothing I've experienced.

With all due respect Jayleew, but chicken pox was like nothing I've experienced the first time I experienced it. That is what first experience is, and undoubtedly - being the first experience of it, we wouldn't recognise it or appreciate it as being similar to anything else we've experienced. Damn man, depending on your age etc I'm sure you'll agree that sex was like nothing you have ever experienced before or since. What we have to appreciate is that having an experience that we do not recognise, or is unlike anything we have experienced before, is not a sign of anything 'godly' or paranormal - but quite normal for all of humanity.

But, I don't know for sure if it really was God or not.

There in itself is the problem. We can all make assumptions. I can say that a voice in my head - no matter how odd the sensation - is from a flying invisible mongbat, but that assumption is meaningless.

When I capatalize the word "god" I am using it as a pronoun for the Hebrew god.

I see, so you're jewish/Israeli?

I'm going to stick with my Dungeon Master (DM) analogy to explain why I believe in God. If a player of Dungeons and Dragons went through an adventure, the existence of the DM is evidenced through Non Player Characters (NPC)s and monsters. In real life, playing the game, you know the DM is there, but within the game, the DM is the game so he doesn't exist in the realm. But, without the DM, there would be no game.

I will stick with your analogy, (having played once or twice before). At all stages of that game you, the player, are aware that there is a DM. He sits right in front of you, personally lays out the rules, and can be shown to exist without any question. what you're saying instead is that you find yourself in a dungeon, and assume that there is a DM because you once played a game similar to those experiences that did have a DM. You then categorize and define that DM without ever having met the DM.

We can do the same thing right now. What I would like you to do is to describe me in detail, (physically). You should be aware that any description is based on nothing but personal assumption. You might get some details right, but that's not based upon any knowledge, just guesswork.

As an honest man, guesswork is insufficient.

Alone it is not evidence of the existence of a DM, but together with the entire game's events which lead in one direction, a player can postulate that an external force exists.

Why and how? You are saying this merely because you know there is a human person acting as DM. If you play the computer version you will then tell me that there is no DM, but that it is all just a bunch of variables. You stand 100000/1 odds of finding a 'sword of whatever' in a chest, and yet if you do, you wont claim it a sign from the compuer gods, but a bunch of variables that have worked out in this instance. And, given some thought, is life not like that? when people talk about the planet we must take variables into account. Let's pretend to be like them and wrongly assume that the planet is perfect for us. How many planets are not? How many billions of planets are simply uninhabitable? It seems life is more in conjuction to the computer version od D&D than the board version. Ok so, you can still claim there was a designer, but then you need to establish some reason for that. Sure, we design games and other things, but it is not we we're talking about.

Do you understand my perspective?

If we're talking D&D the board game version then certainly. But it seems a tad pointless to extract a board game as having any significance to actual life.

If God exists, rest assured, you will know him one day.

This is a fraud. "one day" I will die.. By then I am in no position to tell you you're wrong. Your statement of "one day" is actually entirely meaningless, because until I am dead there is always one more day.

Honestly, I garauntee you that I would be a selfish prick because it is something I battle everyday.

And then perhaps that is why you need religion and why it is something many humans do. I have heard similar statements from many religious people, and yet atheists don't talk like that. Is it that we, the atheist, have learnt how to get on in life whereas the religious could be likened to toddlers in a swimming pool, (in need of arm bands)?

If he exists or not, the idea of God has helped me cope in a perfect way. That is a credit to Christianity.

But it isn't. If anything it is a credit to humanity. I can personally guarantee you that many millions of non-believers have gone through enough shit of their own - be that divorce or whatever. I personally had to watch my son drop dead. The difference comes in how we cope with it. It isn't a credit to any establishment, just your own personal ability to deal with bad shit. Personally I drank quite a bit, and that's all god is - another version of alcohol. When we need support we will find it in many pointless places. I have seen people inject themselves with all kinds of stuff, have seen people drink themselves stupid and pray themselves stupid. It's the same thing, just a different name. god of course costs less.

That is when you have the Catholic church brushing the dirt under the rug, instead of cleaning it up.

What do you think they are saying about your kind of christian right now? I mean the pair of you preach love and tolerance and turn the other cheek, but when it comes down to the facts of the matter, you both spend more time showing hatred and intolerance to anyone that disagrees with your views - and that's just people that share very similar beliefs. Imagine the intolerance and hatred shown from 'loving' christians to people like me.

Never in this life shall you find a bigger hypocrite than christianity.

As a prime example I happened to join some christian forum for a laugh just yesterday. I made one post saying hello, (as politely as possible), and to inform them of some errors in their webpage, and explained how to fix them. My post was then deleted, and this put in it's place:

"How dare you just barge onto this site and start making criticisms! You are a guest here and you should act accordingly! —Ed."

I must admit I am not used to such instant hatred. Yes, my style of speech can induce animosity, but all I did was say hello and try to help. I then left this post in response:

"I do the courtesy of helping you out and I start getting judged and demeaned? Let it be said my dear Luanne, you need to calm yourself just a little bit and take the help when it is offered.

Right now I could get into a debate, but the Lord has taught me better. Instead I shall give you one small question:

What would Jesus have done?

I understand that none of us are perfect, (we could only dream of being), but if people can no longer help other people then Satan really has taken a stronger hold of humanity than I can care to imagine. I will assume it was just an 'off' moment on your part, and pray that all be made better."

The next response from them was:

"We will not tolerate disrespectful posting directed at True Christians."

This is all that has been said so far, but needless to say it makes me wonder when christians are going to apply the 'love' that jesus spoke of.

I have never met more people that follow someone that teaches love then go on to do the exact opposite and show nothing but absolute hatred for everyone. I have never seen so many people judge others while following a god that says "do not judge". I have never, in all my days, met a non-religious man act as badly as a religious one. It's quite bizarre.

It is possible for there to be one god.

Much like it is equally possible that there are millions or none. You are in no place to say, and the words of ancient people are of no worth.

And as far as the "us" in Genesis. It reinforces the already established concept of the trinity.

I am afraid it doesn't, the whole concept of the trinity appearing many eons later. But hey, even if god was three in one, there's still no logical reason he would talk to himself.

We need to first understand the mannerisms, the customs, and traditions to understand what in the world someone so long ago was trying to really say.

Alas, without knowing the person that did the writing, any claims would be nothing but baseless assumption. I will give you extra dues if you can show that the author/s of the bible were not drug addicts, mentally imbalanced, as daft as Happeh, or just plain making it up. People make stories up all the time - and good ones at that, people use drugs all the time, etc etc and so on. From a look through the bible we'd see that the majority of meetings with god come in the forms of dreams or visions, ('visions' implies the usage of certain drugs). Man I have some right far out funky dreams. If I wrote a book about them they'd beat the bible hands down, but that does not imply reality. Of course people thousands of years ago would not have known what a dream was or why it happened.

I believe in God because he has proven himself. I believe the Bible is the word of God because I believe in God.

There is a great and vast error in your quote, but religious people never notice it. Let it be said that my daughter has proven to me that she exists. As a result I know she exists regardless to what anyone else ever says. I wont even bother arguing it because I know she does. Why, for someone who claims it has been proven, would you say "I believe"? You even said it twice. "I believe in god". What that shows is that you have no proof whatsoever, but that you "believe". People that know say they 'know', people that do not know say they 'believe'.

Right, I don't trust anyone who wrote the Bible. So, we have to use other external non-biblical sources to define the scriptures' meanings.

Such as?

Everything's guesswork. Nothing is certain to me. Honestly, I still have doubts of God, but he proves me wrong again and again.

I know my daughter exists. End of story.

How easy that was. Further to which, if he "proved" you wrong, you wouldn't have doubts. If you do, as you say, then there is no reason he could not come down and say hello to all of us. We would still have our free will, and even when "proven" to we could have our doubts, and it would end a lot of human turmoil. I would consider it the best all round thing to do, and so should any "all-loving" god.

if I didn't experience God, I would not believe.

If you did experience god, you wouldn't believe... you'd "know".

 

[jayleew]

I didn't ask for muslims to blow people up or chop their heads off much like I didn't ask for christians to force their shit upon the minds of the young and innocent. Jews, (although most don't like them), seem to at least keep themselves to themselves. Let me run a quick poll:

Think about everytime anyone has ever knocked on your door trying to sell you religion. What is the jew to christian denomination ratio? They, (here at least), get on with their own shit without forcing it upon me and mine. That is a lot more than I can say for christianity, which has been forcing it's opinion on people for the past couple of millennia.

Well, i'm sorry but, piss on the people who claim they are Christians and such things. They attempt to do what God does not do and impede on free will. They mean well I suppose, but they create an image that is anything but what many dogmas and precepts of the Christian faith, as well as scriptural teaching. If they would just go be with the homeless, they would know how worthless it is to spew Christian propaganda, and how more worth-while it is to at least bake a stinkin cake and that's it. No strings attached. They will sell you religion alright, but not anything else. I get etchy when someone refers to me as religious because I don't want any part of organized religion. I go to church not for the sake of the religion, but to share my talents for God. You have a point, SnakeLord, and I stand with you on this.

It's all a service. They give you what you need, you pay them for it. We are all lacking somewhere in life. Whether we solve it through prostitutes, alcohol, drugs or religion - we're paying for nothing more than personal therapy.

Exactly, we all are paying for personal therapy. God is freedom from being a slave to the therapy.

'Choice' is a bit of an odd statement. I knew a guy once that worked in a slave camp. His master said: "You have a choice: You can either do all my work for me and kiss my feet, or you can get shot in the head. There's good ol' fashioned free will for you". Needless to say, the word 'choice' is all about perspective. The master gave a 'choice', the slaves didn't have a 'choice'.

That is not at all what God is offering. Scripture says that God gives a choice to stand with him or against him, but all will know he is God in the end and will reject or accept him. Those who do not want God shall have an eternity without God. Sound good? That depends on what you perceive God is doing to win you. If God holds back the evil even in your unbelief, you will be in anguish if he were to let evil be with evil and good with good, which will ocurr after the rapture when the gates of heaven will be shut. That is not a gun to the head. It is a choice you give your teenager: Follow my rules under my house, or you can follow your own rules under your own house.

When you understand why you reject all the other possible gods, (beliefs), then you will understand why I reject yours, (S. Roberts)

I already understand why you reject my God, and I don't blame anyone for disbelieiving in God. I mean he doesn't exactly make it easy. I feel for you, not condescending, but hoplessness on my part. I can't do anything to help you, but I know you can have what I have at any time you humble yourself.

 

[jayleew]

That's because at the time, Rome ruled the world. Anybody who takes the mention of Rome seriously is undoubtedly trying to make a sectarian anti-Catholic point which can hardly have been the point of the prophecy. In Revelation, Rome = The Beast = Nero. Rome as the centre of world Christianity for over 1200 years was still yet in the future and beyond the wildest dreams of the most fervent Christian at that time. (In any case, the writer of Revelation undoubtedly thought it was all going to come to pass in his lifetime. I can't remember where I read this, but it goes something like, "Nobody would have been more surprised than St. Paul, had he come back in AD 400, that letters he had written would have obtained the same sanctity as the scripture he himself venerated. Though not half as surprised as he would have been that the world still existed.")

In the Bible writers' day, Sheshak meant Babylon, when you couldn't refer openly to revolt against Babylon. Later they would say Babylon (long abandoned) when they meant Rome. You have to find the equivalent of "Rome" - meaning overbearing ruler - today. Well, it wasn't the British Empire, which came and went. It wasn't the Austro-Hungarian Empire and it wasn't the Soviet Empire. Who does that leave today? (I'm not, however, advocating Bush as the anti-christ, which would be just too delicious an irony.)

You have a point about the fear and dislike of Rome, but it actually gives geographic location of Rome in scripture. The antichrist will come out of the 7 mountains. Rome is situated between 7 mountains.

 

[SnakeLord]

Exactly, we all are paying for personal therapy. God is freedom from being a slave to the therapy.

No, god is another form of therapy. You're just another addict making an excuse for his addiction. Somewhat like a cocaine addict excusing his addiction on the basis that it isn't as bad as heroin.

Those who do not want God shall have an eternity without God. Sound good?

How would I know? Sure, you all claim to know this being inside out, but nobody does - and everyone that claims to gives a different response. We could judge from the texts that have been written. If we use the bible we'll see that this being drowned every human on the planet - including tiny children and fragile old grannies. This being told us to kill prostitutes, fortune tellers and our own sons if they misbehave. This being sulphur bombed an entire city and turned a man's wife into salt simply because of her inbuilt curiosity. These are just a couple of examples out of hundreds of seriously evil acts from this one being.

Is there a reason one would want to be with this being? It's amusing to see that those that do, most often follow in his foosteps. (Intolerance explained earlier). I have no valid way of making a judgement concerning whether I would want to be with this being for eternity or not. The only possible judgement comes in the form of texts that have been left for us. By them, the answer to any sane person would instantly be no.

I have never heard anyone yell "all loving" like christians do, while in the very next sentence tell us all about world floods, eternal burning of our souls, the destruction of our world and our lives, and a whole list of other things that are the exact opposite of 'all loving', but more like 'all nasty'.

If God holds back the evil even in your unbelief

Ok, explain what 'evil', (that he is the creator of), that he has held back? Aside from the serious shit, I'm still at a loss as to why he would create pubic lice and those South American catfish that swim up the end of your penis. Why do it? Evil comes in many shapes and forms, and while I can understand human acts of evil, I cannot comprehend the need for 'evil' like the ones shown above. Why create a worm that burrows into your foot and ends up killing you? Why create a fly that lays its eggs inside your body which then hatch and proceed to eat you alive? Evil I can handle, pathetic creations I cannot.

 

[(Q)]

Tell that to a serial killer who has invaded your home, killed your wife, and you have a gun in your hand, while your daughter stands behind you. Morality is subjective. Surely, you must see that circumstances influence morality.

Then, in the same spirit of the argument, should I also stand idly by while your god kills my wife? Would your god be teaching me something here?

It is the difference between optimism and pessimism in cases of tragedy. Who knows the real reason.

Perhaps thats the flaw in your argument, that you look for a reason as to why things happen.

Families came together. Republicans and democrats laid their differences aside. Compassion filled the streets as America came together. God knows that we are apt to look to others for strength in trying times. It is an opprotunity for him to prove himself, and he does, but you don't hear about all of it in the news.

Rubbish. Families were torn apart. God does not prove himself when he slaughters innocent people, quite the opposite.

Again, I find it very hard to believe that you could justify the deaths of countless humans so that your god can prove a point. With that in mind, you could easily justify anyones death as perfectly acceptable.

For the sake of the whole plant, you need to cut off the dead parts, or risk losing the plant. A little yeast makes the whole bread rise. It is a fact the the Bible has a myth that God caused natural disasters to keep the human species alive.

Sorry, that is complete rubbish. We are talking about the lives of real people here, not plants and bread.

If you god REALLY wanted to keep the human species alive, why not feed starving children, rid them of pestulence and disease and stop sending his suicide bombers to do his work.

All the muck of life, everything from a simple as a day at work and all the social pressures that exist. If that is not properly channelled, or a drug taken, it could lead to many things, including a breakdown or worse.

I'm afraid I don't understand your position. Life is easy to deal with when you actually deal with it and not, instead, fall back on a fantasy. Thats escapism.

What are you a robot? Most of the time, my emotions do not control me.

No, I'm not a robot, I have emotions, I simply don't let them rule my decision-making process. And it appears you do not as well. Hence, you use logic.

The "hole" is many things that people fill it with. It is things like feelings of monotony, emptiness, depression, "dry", despairity, feeling small, etc.

Simple personal problems, all of which could be dealt with quite easily and without the need of god fantasies.

Everyone has an addiction of some sort, be it computer games, drugs, or anything in between. We're talking about the addiction, not the act of playing a computer game or taking a drug...but when it begins to inadvertantly affect your life.

So, do what I do, make life your addiction.

She nagged me to try her church, I went once so that she would stop nagging me, and I encountered God that day at the altar.

What, you saw him standing there?

Everyone, if they truly want to be free and be an individual needs to not be subject to their desires. Otherwise, they are human, not any different than most people on the planet.

Do your desires rule your life? Again, that is the same as emotions.

You are right. I don't understand why God pulls the safety net from people, but not on me. I fall like everyone else, but I'm caught in the net.

Again, there are no 'safety nets' - you've merely escaped into fantasy.

If that happens it would be a rude awakening to reality.

Not really, reality doesn't recognize divine 'safety nets.'