Heresy to the establishment

[birch]

http://www.oddee.com/item_99038.aspx

Pauli himself explained his beliefs somewhat esoterically when he professed to believe in “the existence of relatively constant psychic contents that survive personal ego...All we can observe is their effect on other living people, whose spiritual level and whose personal unconscious crucially influence the way these contents actually manifest themselves.”

I already know that paranormal and parasychology is true. How living beings, not just the inanimate, affects other living beings on the most unseen/invisible level to the visible yet there are those who can't fathom it as possible seems to be a dire form of utter dishonesty simply because it can't be proven in a concrete or established way currently.

 

[Dinosaur]

From Birch Post #1

I already know that paranormal and parasychology is true.

What leads you to such beliefs?

To me, such beliefs belong in the following category

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary supporting evidence to be worthy of consideration.

BTW: Why not use a spell checker when posting? You misspelled parapsychology.

I use Word Perfect to compose my Posts. It has a spell checker​

 

[Dywyddyr]

I already know that paranormal and parasychology is true.

The correct word here is believe, not know.

How living beings, not just the inanimate, affects other living beings on the most unseen/invisible level to the visible yet there are those who can't fathom it as possible seems to be a dire form of utter dishonesty simply because it can't be proven in a concrete or established way currently.

And, since you got the operative word in your first sentence wrong, this part is shown up as the the nonsense it really is.

 

[exchemist]

http://www.oddee.com/item_99038.aspx



I already know that paranormal and parasychology is true. How living beings, not just the inanimate, affects other living beings on the most unseen/invisible level to the visible yet there are those who can't fathom it as possible seems to be a dire form of utter dishonesty simply because it can't be proven in a concrete or established way currently.

The problem, surely, is the absence of objective (that is to say, reproducible) evidence for any of these effects. It is not dishonest in science to ignore ideas for which there is no firm evidence. And, once again, one has to reiterate the point that no theory is ever proven in science: the test is whether there is good evidence that supports it.

 

[Magical Realist]

The problem, surely, is the absence of objective (that is to say, reproducible) evidence for any of these effects.

You mean like this:

http://deanradin.com/evidence/evidence.htm

 

[DaveC426913]

...yet there are those who can't fathom it as possible seems to be a dire form of utter dishonesty simply because it can't be proven in a concrete or established way currently.

The problem lies in how you distinguish them from 'snake oil' and other baseless claims.

Establishing both evidence and a theoretical model are the primary ways we currently distinguish possible new phenomena from woo.

Aside: it is fallacious to label one's opponents as dishonest simply because they disagree with you. If it were not, then the label of 'dishonest' could just as easily be applied to you, since you disagree with them.

 

[Magical Realist]

Establishing both evidence and a theoretical model are the primary ways we currently distinguish possible new phenomena from woo.

Really? We have to establish a theoretical model for a phenomenon before we acknowledge it's existence? I guess rainbows didn't exist before we learned about the refraction of light waves.

 

[birch]

The correct word here is believe, not know.


And, since you got the operative word in your first sentence wrong, this part is shown up as the the nonsense it really is.

Heh, i know what your problem is and that is being stumped and having a mental block by the terminology 'paranormal'. i don't have to believe anything because it exists and occurs, even between people and all manner of unseen but real effects, not just your usual ghost/apparition sightings, ufo's and other mainstream. just because you live your life ignoring the gray areas or use your mind like a sift to what you consider to be the only truth, facts or occurences, does not make it untrue either.

the paranormal maybe beyond the reach of science and it may stay that way forever or one day could be proven as in satisfactory to science. but it may never be something that can be pinned down or contained but still real. impossible? wrap your head around that possiblity or unthinkable. whatever you want to believe.

 

[Michael 345]

impossible? wrap your head around that possiblity or unthinkable. whatever you want to believe.

Sorry cannot do

My puny brain has enough of a problem containing REAL and PROVABLE

information which at least has a possibility of being limited

Not sure that thinking of impossible possibilities is even possible

Or if it is possible to think about the unthinkable

If you ever think about something which is unthinkable be sure to obtain evidence so you can disprove

that paranormal maybe beyond the reach of science

is incorrect

Of course IF you succeed you will demolish that particular item and

you will have dragged it into Science

But don't worry you still have the infinite expanse of more unthinkables to think about

 

[Dywyddyr]

Heh, i know what your problem is and that is being stumped and having a mental block by the terminology 'paranormal'.

Wrong.

i don't have to believe anything because it exists and occurs, even between people and all manner of unseen but real effects, not just your usual ghost/apparition sightings, ufo's and other mainstream. just because you live your life ignoring the gray areas or use your mind like a sift to what you consider to be the only truth, facts or occurences, does not make it untrue either

Again, wrong. You believe. if it existed then you'd be able to show that it does.

the paranormal maybe beyond the reach of science and it may stay that way forever or one day could be proven as in satisfactory to science. but it may never be something that can be pinned down or contained but still real. impossible? wrap your head around that possiblity or unthinkable. whatever you want to believe.

Utter crap.
Even the "paranormal" itself were "beyond the reach of science" it has - according to those who believe in it - effects in the real world.
Since those effects are conspicuously absent then the "paranormal" either doesn't exist at all or has no bearing whatsoever on reality. (In which case it's indistinguishable from "not existing").

 

[Yazata]

Really? We have to establish a theoretical model for a phenomenon before we acknowledge it's existence?

I guess rainbows didn't exist before we learned about the refraction of light waves.

It isn't always necessary to have a theoretical model, but it certainly makes believing in something a lot easier when it is consistent with all of the other things we already know.

 

[Magical Realist]

It isn't always necessary to have a theoretical model, but it certainly makes believing in something a lot easier when it is consistent with all of the other things we already know.

Lacking a theoretical model for a phenomenon isn't inconsistency with all the other things we know. It's just not knowing how it fits into that paradigm yet. But even then, science must be ready to modify existing theory to accomodate new phenomena, as in the case of black body radiation.

 

[birch]

Lacking a theoretical model for a phenomenon isn't inconsistency with all the other things we know. It's just not knowing how it fits into that paradigm yet. But even then, science must be ready to modify existing theory to accomodate new phenomena, as in the case of black body radiation.

this is how much in denial they are. paranormal emcompasses a wide variety. just even how one's thoughts and emotions can affect another is also paranormal. it's not concrete but still has real effects.

 

[exchemist]

this is how much in denial they are. paranormal emcompasses a wide variety. just even how one's thoughts and emotions can affect another is also paranormal. it's not concrete but still has real effects.

No it isn't.

Wiki's description of "paranormal is as follows "
"Paranormal events are phenomena described in popular culture, folklore, and other non-scientific bodies of knowledge, whose existence within these contexts is described to lie beyond normal experience or scientific explanation.[1][2][3][4]

A paranormal phenomenon is different from hypothetical concepts such as dark matter and dark energy. Unlike paranormal phenomena, these hypothetical concepts are based on empirical observations and experimental data gained through the scientific method.[5]

The most notable paranormal beliefs include those that pertain to ghosts, extraterrestrial life, unidentified flying objects, psychic abilities or extrasensory perception, and cryptids.[6]"

Quite plainly it is not beyond normal experience or scientific explanation to account for why a person's thoughts and emotions affect another. Human beings communicate their thoughts and emotions to each other via speech, actions, gesture, facial expression and unconscious body language. There is nothing paranormal about any of these.

If you want to claim that someone completely out of contact with another person can nevertheless affect them via their thoughts and emotions, then I might agree that could be paranormal. Is that what you meant and if so do you have examples to illustrate this?

 

[birch]

i predict that if they come up with bionic eyes that can what is currently invisible to us and different bends of light then people may discover more than they think exists right now. possibly open up a whole new avenue/world/dimension of investigation and research. i'm sure i will have long past on so can't say 'i told you so.'

Quite plainly it is not beyond normal experience or scientific explanation to account for why a person's thoughts and emotions affect another. Human beings communicate their thoughts and emotions to each other via speech, actions, gesture, facial expression and unconscious body language. There is nothing paranormal about any of these.

stop feigning obtuse and simple. the ability to affect other's because there is energetic interplay and even unconscious exchange also between people can be construed as paranormal. not all exchange between people or living beings is strictly information from mind to mind, it can be visceral and that visceral and it's effects, because they are not concrete but still real is in the realm of paranormal.

 

[Michael 345]

i predict that if they come up with bionic eyes that can what is currently invisible to us and different bends of light then people may discover more than they think exists right now. possibly open up a whole new avenue/world/dimension of investigation and research. i'm sure i will have long past on so can't say 'i told you so.'

They already exists

True they are not imbedded into the human body

But our senses are magnified by a factor in the millions

Space telescopes pick out galaxies billions of light years away

Electron microscopy views atoms

Hard to shrink both of those down to human size

Light forms a tiny fraction of the electromagnetic radiation spectrum so there are no more bands of light to discover



https://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/science/toolbox/emspectrum1.html

and even unconscious exchange also between people can be construed as paranormal.

Unconscious exchange can not be construed as paranormal

If I feel sad

I can make those around me

in a room or hall sad

THAT'S normal NOT paranormal

If I could do it to a hall full of people

across the road

that would be worthwhile checking

real is in the realm of paranormal.

News flash and spoiler alert

NOTHING is REAL in the realm of the paranormal

Hell even the realm does not exist

 

[Yazata]

It isn't always necessary to have a theoretical model, but it certainly makes believing in something a lot easier when it is consistent with all of the other things we already know.

Lacking a theoretical model for a phenomenon isn't inconsistency with all the other things we know. It's just not knowing how it fits into that paradigm yet. But even then, science must be ready to modify existing theory to accomodate new phenomena, as in the case of black body radiation.

The purported events of parapsychology lack an explanatory theory in terms of our current understanding almost by definition. That's what lands events in the 'parapsychological' class.

But that needn't always mean that parapsychology must always contradict our current understanding or that our current understanding has to always be correct.

I just meant that if we have some theory that explains how some seemingly extraordinary event X can occur, then that theoretical support will make it a lot easier for many of us to believe that X did in fact occur.

If X seems to violate our understanding of how the physical world operates, then it will be much harder.

 

[Yazata]

NOTHING is REAL in the realm of the paranormal

Do you really know that? If so, how?

Or is it just an expression of your faith?

I would define 'faith' as confidence in the truth of things that we don't really know with certainty. I think that it's a lot more common than people think. We couldn't live without it, since we know very little with absolute apodeictic certainty.

 

[Magical Realist]

The purported events of parapsychology lack an explanatory theory in terms of our current understanding almost by definition. That's what lands events in the 'parapsychological' class.

But that needn't always mean that parapsychology must always contradict our current understanding or that our current understanding has to always be correct.

I just meant that if we have some theory that explains how some seemingly extraordinary event X can occur, then that theoretical support will make it a lot easier for many of us to believe that X did in fact occur.

If X seems to violate our understanding of how the physical world operates, then it will be much harder.

I don't agree. I think the evidence for the phenomenon is the sole basis for believing it. The fact that we can't explain it yet has no bearing on its reality. In fact theory presupposes the ontic status of the phenomenon itself. Without that already having been established, all theorizing is futile. I only belabor this point as it is often a way out that debunkers use to dismiss paranormal phenomena. That because we have no theory for it it isn't real. I'm not going to accomodate that sort of false logic at all.

 

[spidergoat]

The purported events of parapsychology lack an explanatory theory in terms of our current understanding almost by definition.

If they are only purported, they don't need an explanation.