Heterosexuality is unnatural
- Thread starter Buddha1
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You may be right there......men have more brawn/ courage than brain. Though I think where they lack is cunningness (which the real heterosexual male is fully capable of). And that is why he has been so effectively enslaved.Avatar said:
But does that justify his enslavement --- because he is not smart enough --- like the heterosexual man?
Not only the men. Don't be so man centric, it shows your bias.
Anyways in the past it was the strong society that made weak individuals better people.
At this age due to various reasons (too long to explain here) the society has become the weak one and it's up to individuals to make it a strong society.
At the same time those who sink in the society become as weak as it is.
I'm not saying the society does not harm, of course it does, but those, who can't resist it, earn no compassion from my persona.
And remember - society consists of individuals, it's not outside of individual persons.
If they are psychologically able to make a choice there is no problem.
The more people are able to choose the more changes the whole society,
but in order to be able to choose the individual must be able to distinguish her- or himself. from the society, know his or her own psyche and needs.
The weakminded can not choose, they see no options.
Buddha1 said:
Men's issues, from what little I know, deal with men as they relate to WOMEN, with the presupposition of 99% of them heterosexual. What you're talking about doesn't really play a part in it. Let me see, this one book...
MEN ARE FROM MARS, WOMEN ARE FROM VENUS
I think that sums up MAINSTREAM men's studies. Alot of people found the book empowering or at least enlightening. Alot of people also saw it as a return to the dark ages of gender segregation, or better put, enforcement and encouragement of those "ageless" roles that people were just BORN to play!
I beg to differ. There is no reason to believe what you're saying. You're just being judgemental becuase you have no real understanding of the issue.Avatar said:
Perhaps we should stop discussing this further and wait for more evidences to get a clearer picture before you can form a judgment like that.
Men are just reacting to their social pressures. And that this reaction is universal, and is the same all accross the globe and so are the pressures --- shows us clearly that it is not a problem of individual weakness. Rather it's a deep rooted social conspiracy and I think this is an issue that deserves the attention of our society, especially those of men --- of whatever class, creed, race, gender or so-called sexual orientation!
(although admittedly non-straight men do not feel the brunt of these pressures like straight men do!)
In nature the strongest survive, the weak suffer and dissapear.
You could say that it's a natural order of things.
If you protect the weak by making them strong (in intellect or whatever), then all is good, but if you protect them by sustaining them in their weak state of mind (and making everything comfy and fluffy around) then you add more to the degredation of the whole system.
You can see a clear picture of that by looking at polititians in democratic countries - the representatives/reflection of the society. They mostly are cowardly, pathetic and unable to govern a state, so are a lot of individuals unable to govern themselves.
On the contrary, I have studied human psychology, cultures and societies dating as far back as the first villages in African jungle in proto-Neolithic period.
But I require no one to believe in my words, that is your personal choice and I couldn't care less.
Then it is clear - you choose conspiracy, I choose psychic problems due to insufficient development.
Whatever you want, I don't care about your problem any way.
p.s. There is no name "evidences" in English, no plural form, only singular. It is always "evidence", never "evidences".
I still think you don't understand the gravity of the problem.Avatar said:
The individual is completely helpless before the power of the society --- however brave that individual is! And especially before an immensely powerful and sophisticated society like the west, where the individual can gain immense material benefits if he conforms but can make his life hell if he does not.
Perhaps you never had to face such issues yourself. But believe me, it's not easy to resist or to fight.
To start with you have to fight your own 'brainwashing' and 'training' the society has instilled you in with since you were a child. Most people are unable to see the reality because the society trained them otherwise.
And it becomes a thouseand times mroe difficult because men are broken from each other. E.g. they are broken into heterosexuals and homosexuals in the west. You put up resistance and you are labelled as 'gay' and marginalised. You have no real choice.
It's not easy at all the fight the strong social systems. You're not up against one man or a group of men. You're against the entire social biases and oppression. I mean you have seen the kind of opposition, resistance and sometimes harrassment I have to go through when I want to raise these issues. I am able to continue this discussion because its internet.
You are happy and safe only as long as you fit into the heterosexual or homosexual category --- and not only vis-a-vis your sexual needs but also your gender orientation. If you don't there are not many options for you.
If you decide to resist and fight --- they will make life such hell for you that you won't want to live (Giambatista is just one example!). Most people do make the easier and most hassle free choice when deciding to give in to social pressures.
I know of men in the west --- so-called heterosexual men who fell out of the system and found themselves totally isolated. That was when they decided to fight back, because they were brave. They are in their sixties or so, and are determined to fight till their last breath. But they have lost everything in this fight. And the worse part is that they are fighting for men, but they have very little support or help from men. It's because the society has made them incapable.
I thought civilisation was about protecting the weak. Otherwise what is the point. Otherwise, Why shouldn't we just go and live in the jungle?Avatar said:
Secondly, if civilisation about making the powerful weak? I don't think so!
Straight men are naturally geared to live in communities and they tend to sacrifice self for what they perceive as the greater good. The society has fooled them into believing that this enslavement is for the good of the society. Thus making their power into their weakness. But the society will pay (and is paying) dearly for this misdeed.
Buddha1 said:
Buddha1, I agree with most of what you say. But, you are over-generalizing a little too much, focus on which groups of men struggle with their sexual pressures to be homosexual or heterosexual. All your "research" is consistent with today's young men and women. I know women who experimented and become homo or heterosexual based on a variety of influences or pressures. I myself experimented when I was young and I am now a heterosexual by choice.
My point is that your argument that there are thousands of people lying, hiding, and giving out a false image of themselves is unsupported. Most men in the Western societies claim heterosexuality (even though they have misconceptions of the term) and do not struggle at all with their sexual feelings for men because they do not exist in most men. Ever since having discussions with you, I have tried to be more concious with my interactions with other men in the various relationships I have, and I have absolutely no struggle with my sexual feelings toward men. Not even an inkling exists to be sexual with a man. I've even come to grips that I could have an intimate relationship with a man, but I can not ever cross the sexual boundaries because of my experiences with the male sexual organs because of my preference. (Cultured or not, it is still my preference today) Young people struggle with their identity (sexual or not), most grown men have already established their identity. Should we encourage all identities?
If we encourage homosexuality AND heterosexuality equally as natural in society, how can we say no to any behavior that the young person wishes to experiment with and not have a double-standard when they are finding their identity?
Seriously, you are right that we need to not promote heterosexuality as much as we do. That is hurting our Western society. Perhaps we should not promote sexuality period and let nature take its course in a society. That seems to be the best option. We might be shocked to find out who we are when we remove the brain washing...and deep down, we are natural men with a chemical drive to have sex. From Roman art, we can see that their culture was not heterosexual nor homosexual. Was that a strength of the culture?
Completely wrong. The original idea of any society is to make a strong individual out of an unshaped, egoistic animal.
I already pointed out that there have been some problems in this when societies (from tribe to empire level) start to become weak themselves.
It amuses me that you have put as the world problem no.1, this sexual agenda of yours. You turn to curing particular symptoms and not the cause.
Anyways, have a fine time discussing this with others, I have to prepare the house for a tea party, celebrating the upcoming blizzards. No males invited.
Buddha1 said:
Hmm...
Well, I suppose my little story is VERY much like this one. The hand holding (but not for hours!), any excuse to be near each other or somehow touch the other person, but all the time being so casual and nonchalant about it, like it's just playing around. There's nothing serious about it, really. I mean, we're both guys, right? Women are just fine, thanks!
Even him tearing up the letter sounds familiar! I sent him two letters, one through a friend at school (I graduated the year before), and one to his house.
I remember anxiously waiting a day or so after giving it to her to take to him, so I could hear what he said. I believe they had a math class together.
She asked him what he thought of the letter. He told her he had torn it up and thrown it away. I think she asked him why, and he said the it was "madness." She asked him what the letter said, because I don't think she totally knew, and I think she was maybe a little taken aback that he would rip it to pieces. His response, "It said madness." That was basically all he would say about the contents. She said he acted rather cold and indifferent.
His reaction was so very much like the one you illustrated in this case above.
After the second letter (and no response) I finally got the nerve up to call him, and he was VERY IRATE about it. He told me that he didn't "want that" but wouldn't get any more elaborate than that. The way he ACTED spoke volumes about his true feelings for me but the words that came out of his mouth I could only describe as scripted. It was like exactly what he was "supposed" to say.
Did you read the post a did last week about the dream(s) I had about this person? The symbolism was exceedingly rich in those dreams, and in a few cases actually was precognisant, or predicted in sometimes subtle and sometimes very LITERAL ways, and I was astounded.
I believe you also read my message about that time I knew overwhelmingly that I would just run into him that one evening, even though I had no idea WHERE or HOW.
Bear with me on this, but it is probably even MORE important than the relationship itself....
I don't think I mentioned the one time (actually it happened twice) that I was at work, on a weekday, and I was minding my own business when suddenly this powerful thought entered my head: HE'S GOING TO CALL YOU ON THE PHONE VERY SOON.
The feeling that I just KNEW he was going to call me there at work was bizarre. I had never really experienced it before. It wasn't just a mental feeling, but like a truth that I could FEEL throughout my body. I remember saying OUTLOUD to myself (although in a rather hushed voice!) "God! Why do I feel this? I feel like he's really going to call me. This is very weird."
An hour later, someone told me I had a telephone call. It was this very same guy!
He had NEVER called me on the phone before, and I was NOT expecting him to call me at work. So I was astounded that I would just suddenly KNOW what was going to happen.
It happened again a month or two later, but the feeling wasn't as strong. However, the feeling I described when I passed him in my car that one evening after work, was EXACTLY like with the telephone. It was like an instant realization hit me and implanted itself, an instant recognition that I was somehow knowing that this was going to happen.
When I described knowing that he was angry after that girl had been flirting with me that one night, I had felt a strange emptiness or void in my stomach. It didn't feel normal. I kept thinking that I was feeling it because he didn't like me all of a sudden. I knew why, but it felt incredibly weird to just KNOW something. The next day, he threw a box directly at my head without saying anything, and a few hours later told me that he was sick of my poor attitude towards women. Cryptic, yes. But when you understand how frustrated he was and how unable to actually SAY what was on his mind, he did the best he could at that time.
But all of those feelings and dreams as a whole made me feel that somehow I had a connection to him that went beyond physical. The emptiness I felt after he left my friend's house that night (the same friend who handed him my letter in class), that VOID felt like something had been taken out of me. Whatever his feelings had been for me BEFORE that time, were now gone, and this emptiness was the result.
I cannot get over that aspect of this relationship. It had many paranormal qualities to it, symbolic, archetypal, psychic, etc.
What do you or anyone think of this??? I really would like to know if you ever came across anything similar in any of your cases.
Nonetheless, I shall come back to Earth! I'm just trying to drive home the fact that those strange qualities changed me forever.
Was I connected to him in some powerful way that went beyond space and time, as silly as it may sound to some? I'm very serious about this! A secret relationship like this is bad enough, but to have these powerful feelings and synchronicities on top of it all nearly drove me crazy!
Oh, and Buddha, you can post more case examples as you see fit, because I found that refreshing and enlightening!
Buddha1 said:
Are you referring to me, or Avatar?
Giambatista, I have never come across the 'supernatural' feelings you've described in my counseling cases. But in love people sometimes do have this hyperactie sixth sense. But I'm really unable to analyse that or to explain its reasons.
I would say, that you should share this feelings with others -- like you're doing now and if they are able to --- take their opinion about it (though I think they will be more apt to pooh-pooh it!). It's important for you to share. Just because others have not gone through the feelings or science cannot validate them --- does not mean that they are all in your head. It happened with you --- and in all probability you had a 'spiritual' connection with him. Perhaps he did not have the same connection with you because his capability to do that was mutilated by his heterosexual status.
I would say, that you should share this feelings with others -- like you're doing now and if they are able to --- take their opinion about it (though I think they will be more apt to pooh-pooh it!). It's important for you to share. Just because others have not gone through the feelings or science cannot validate them --- does not mean that they are all in your head. It happened with you --- and in all probability you had a 'spiritual' connection with him. Perhaps he did not have the same connection with you because his capability to do that was mutilated by his heterosexual status.
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