Homosexuality, Immorality and Christianity

Red Devil,

1. By this I presume you mean that although the bible says this or that, two thousand years of further evolution of the social structure allows for the rules to be bent (pardon the pun). Or to put it another way, mankind can read what he likes into the biblical rules.
Or more accurately – a significantly increased understanding of human behavior and psychology is gradually showing the bible rules in this respect to be irrelevant, inappropriate, and unacceptable.

2. As I am not a religious conservative I must be living in a cultural backwater as I strongly oppose this form of sexuality!! I would disagree with that viewpoint.
I think this is a matter of tolerance. There are some types of music I do not like but I don’t persecute those who do. Some people have different sexual preferences to me but they don’t interfere with my freedom so I don’t have any problem with them.

Does your strong opposition move you to persecute and attempt to interfere with the freedom of those who apparently offend you? If so then wouldn’t you be guilty of immoral acts that lead you to harm others?

3. Religion is not growing, it is on its way out to be replaced by reality, in my opinion.
That’s just a matter of semantics I think. We could consider that religion is growing towards reality.
 
Originally posted by Cris
Does your strong opposition move you to persecute and attempt to interfere with the freedom of those who apparently offend you?

That’s just a matter of semantics I think. We could consider that religion is growing towards reality.

No Sir, I do not condone violence against anyone for reasons outside of war.

I suppose the religion aspect depends on one's viewpoint. From mine, an outsider, I see Science taking over more and more each day. I once said that religion is the tool of the ignorant to explain the unknown. Science is answering the unknown with coherent explanations. More and more so called mysteries are being explained by Science every day. Turin shroud for example has been proved to be a lot younger than 2003 years.
 
Originally posted by Red Devil
1. By this I presume you mean that although the bible says this or that, two thousand years of further evolution of the social structure allows for the rules to be bent (pardon the pun). Or to put it another way, mankind can read what he likes into the biblical rules.
Why not? Christian morality today is nearly unrecognizable compared only 1000 years ago. Jesus himself introduced massive changes in his reinterpretation of OT Judaic Law, redirecting the focus upon the intent rather than the letter of the law. This progression away from rules of conduct and towards a personal awareness seems to be the norm in the development of religion.

2. As I am not a religious conservative I must be living in a cultural backwater as I strongly oppose this form of sexuality!! I would disagree with that viewpoint.
I would suggest you examine the reasons that underlay your opposition. Is your conception of homosexuality truthful or does it contain misconceptions and falsehoods? Is your reaction based upon a comparison with your personal proclivities? If so, do you as strenuously oppose those who prefer different music (to borrow Chris's example) or find monkey brains to be a delicacy? People are different, how is it that you condemn one set of differences but not another... and are you certain yours are the 'correct' ones?

3. Religion is not growing, it is on its way out to be replaced by reality, in my opinion.
Even as the fantastical is being weaned out of religion the mystical and transcendent remains a part of human experience. Religion is not dying, the western world is finally reaching the point of realization that several eastern philosophies discovered years ago; namely that religion is intensely personal and utterly subjective. It cannot be indoctrinated as a set of rules or coerced though threat of pain and death.

Broaden your perspective and look to the commonalities that run throughout the major religions, here you will find consistent truths of human experience. They show up again and again; in myth, in religion, in literature, in psychology, and in philosophy. These are all expressions of the human experience, look beyond the fantasy.

If these are not your favorite topics, look towards scientific philosophy. Read Tesla (what there is), Einstein, Feynman, Sagan, and Hawking. Their discussions are rife with the mysterious and the transcendent. And this is where I get truly excited... the common conceptions of heaven and hell are dull in comparison with the concept of a holographic universe or the perception of reality from the POV of a photon ala QED. Which is truth? None of them, they are all models; reality sifted through the filters of human perception and conception. But that which they reveal about reality is indeed mystical and transcendent.

~Raithere
 
Raithere: When talking about religions I tend to default in Christianity, my fault. As for the so called eastern religions, I suppose that mysticism does play a larger role. I actually own Cosmos by Carl Sagan and A Brief History of Time by Hawkins but have not read any other books by these two. There is only one religion on this planet that suggests true religion - Buddhism. If a person carrys his/her own religion beliefs in their mind/soul what need of solid representations eg: churches.
 
But what if someone doesn't follow the christian religion? If their gods have no problem with homosexuality, why should they be forced to follow the orders and rules set by chrisitanity?
 
God said it is wrong to judge others. You may not believe that, but you are still sinning.
 
If god is a truly good god, he should forgive people for sinning, since we're all just how he made us, right?

Teh. Anyways, who is to say that christianity is the one true religion? No one is. So they cannot force their definition of a sin on people who don't believe in that definition.
 
Xianity is most evil

Originally posted by Silivren
Anyways, who is to say that christianity is the one true religion? No one is. So they cannot force their definition of a sin on people who don't believe in that definition.

You are so correct! Xianity is a false religion that condemns all other faiths. I believe Xianity is the Anti-X. It's had 2000 years to lead its' millions of believers astray. Satan would be proud of his work. (But I don't believe in Satan--Satan is Xianity.) I will rejoice when Xianity falls. The end is coming soon!
 
Re: Re: Xianity is most evil

Originally posted by ConsequentAtheist
Did you ever finish teaching us the rules of Shabbat? :D

I never attempted "to teach" the rules of Shabbat. I do not know the rules of Shabbat. What I do know is that the crucifixion as reported in the gospels, did not take place because of the approaching Sabbath.

Why do you condescend to everyone who posts? Are you really that insecure about yourself? Why do you waste everyone's time with your ridiculous remarks? If you can't add something intelligent to the forum, why do you keep insisting on making a fool of yourself? I can tell from some of your posts that you are quite knowledgeable about religion. Why can't you just share your knowledge with us instead of resorting to such childish remarks.
 
Originally posted by Persol
God said it is wrong to judge others. You may not believe that, but you are still sinning.

Then why did he state the homosexuality was wrong - is that not judging others too?

There are so many contradictions in the bible its unreal.
 
Originally posted by Agent Smith
Well thats fine, they can follow their gods, but they are still sinning.

That's pretty presumptuous, don't you think? From your statement I am taking it you believe your religion is the "true" and only? Prove it!
 
Originally posted by Red Devil
When talking about religions I tend to default in Christianity, my fault. As for the so called eastern religions, I suppose that mysticism does play a larger role.
It's buried within the Judaic religions as well, you just have to search a little further for it. Unfortunately, here in the US we have such a preponderance of the evangelical, xenophobic, narrow-minded, crap that pretends to be religion that it is often difficult to see anything else.

I actually own Cosmos by Carl Sagan and A Brief History of Time by Hawkins
Both great books. I'd also recommend "The Demon Haunted World" by Sagan; "The Universe in a Nutshell" by Hawking; anything by Feynman but "QED" is essential; as to Tesla and Einstein I haven't read any books that were outstanding (perhaps someone could recommend some) but one gets a good impression through various quotations and articles. "Shrodinger's Kittens" by Gribbin is also an excellent read.

There is only one religion on this planet that suggests true religion - Buddhism.
Buddhism, Taoism, Sufism, certain schools of Hinduism (although these can be exceedingly confusing)... there are more. As to western schools look towards the gnostic traditions such as the Gospel of Thomas:
"3. Jesus said,"... Rather, the (Father's) kingdom is within you and it is outside you. When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are the poverty.""
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html

It is also evident in Greek Orthodoxy:

"We know God as transcendent, as far away; one of the feelings of truly authentic experience of God is that of awe, that of feeling annihilated in His awesome and distant Presence. However, it is also true that the opposite feeling is also part of true and authentic religious experience: that is to feel God as immanent, and intimately close and nearby and present.
...
Our Christian God, then, is not the "God of Philosophers." He is not a "Supreme Being" similar to other beings, another "essence" among many essences. The Christian God is "super-essential" and "super-existent" only in the sense that He is totally different from created existence. "If everything else is being, God is not a being," said St. Gregory Palamas."
http://www.goarch.org/en/ourfaith/articles/article8038.asp

If a person carrys his/her own religion beliefs in their mind/soul what need of solid representations eg: churches.
Indeed. The questions I often ask are: Who has the hubris to speak for God? If God is ineffable then what words define him? Typical practice attempts to put God in a box labeled "God is". Utter nonsense.

But in the end I find the conception counterproductive. Once labeled the natural tendency is to attempt definition. Better IMO to start with a clean slate such as ideally exists in science or philosophy or to cut away as in Buddhism.

~Raithere
 
The real reason Christians don't accept homosexuals is because they are confused. Their old leaders were bigots, and most of them haven't realized that Jesus Christ actually doesn't want them to disciminate against homosexual people.

Sad thing about Christians, especially America ones, is that most of them no next to nothing about their own religion. Jesus Christ commands everyone, "Take the log out of your own eye before you look for the twig(or something) in your neighbor's eye", but still nobody listens. People are still going against what Jesus wanted, even after he died to make his point. It's really sad.

Jesus Christ embraced and welcomed a whore. I bet you he would have embraced a homosexual man, if he found one, in fact, he probably did.

I'm not an actual Christian anymore, but the homosexual bashing was in the Old Testament. Also in the Old Testament, people had to slaughter animals for their God, slaughter enemies righteously, and shun all but pure Jews.

It's astounding how everyone can look over all these inconsistencies. More than astounding... it's simply unbelievable.

And also, remember: all sins are the same in God's eyes, therefore you, poor sinning Christian, are just as bad(if not worse for your hypocrisy) in God's eyes.
 
Separate the Old Testament and the New Testament cleanly and you will be less confused. My advice for an aspiring Christian: disregard the Old Testament entirely. Throw it away and burn it. It'll just weaken your faith. Focus your faith on Jesus, and you can do some good in the world.
 
Originally posted by Agent Smith
Homosexuality is wrong because god commanded us not to be homosexual.
Just as long as you are following all of the details, make sure not to forget what else is forbidden in Leviticus:

heterosexual intercourse when a woman has her period (18:19)
harvesting the corners of a field (19:9)
eating fruit from a young tree (19:23)
wearing clothes that are made from a textile blend (19:19)
cross-breeding livestock (19:19)
sowing a field with mixed seed (19:19)
shaving or getting a hair cut (19:27)
tattoos (19:28)
even a mildly disabled person from becoming a priest (21:18)
charging of interest on a loan (25:37)
http://milepost1.com/~gaydad/FAQ/WHATBIBLESAYS.html

Oh, and these rules proscribing certain actions as well:

a child to be killed if he/she curses their parent (20:9)
all persons guilty of adultery to be killed (20:10)
the daughter of a priest who engages in prostitution to be killed (21:9)
a priest to marry a virgin (21:13)
ritual killing of animals, using cattle, sheep and goats (22:19)
observation of 7 feasts: Passover, Feast of Unleavened Bread, Feast of Firstfruits, Feast of Pentecost, Feast of Trumpets, Day of Atonement, Feast of Tabernacles (23)
a person who takes the Lord's name in vain is to be killed (24:16)

When you pick and choose at your pleasure which rules to follow and which to ignore the argument looses its potency. Live up to ALL of the laws.

Additionally, the "commandment" against homosexuality is unclear at best. It is generally taken by linguistic scholars to be a proscription against homsexual temple prostitution.

~Raithere

(edited to remove unnecessary rudeness... sorry)
 
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First of all, Christ fulfilled the law of Moses, all things became new. The law of Moses was one of carnal commandments. Christ gave the new. For example, circumcision was done away, the gospel preached to the Gentiles, the eating of unclean animals. Christ taught not to stone, such as the woman taken in adultery and Christ asked he who is without sin cast the first stone. Christ changed the law, He made it and He changed it.

Second, just because men change and want to make, unmake religion to suit or justify themselves, does not make it right. Unless God says it is okay, it is not. Who are men to change what God has decreed? That is like saying the traffic laws do not apply to me, I can speed if I want and who cares what is right.

I love how people claim that those who do not approve of homosexuality are labeled as bigots. I do not like adultery, does that mean that I am bigoted against adulterers? Garbage.

As to other religions, I do not know their beliefs regarding homosexuality, I am speaking specifically of those who are Christian and either practice it and/or condone it.

To those who say let whatever is natural be the rule. We are not animals! Is it excusable for a man to cheat on his wife because it is natural for him to want sex with more than one woman? There is no excuse for it.

If you are atheist, well I guess no rules apply, do whatever you want or those who think Christianity is awful, I guess you better hope you are right. If I am wrong, then I have done what I can to live a good and moral life. If you are wrong, hehe, that will be interesting to see. I can't lose, unless I am doing something contrary to God's will.

And for those who dislike Christ and His teachings, well, it is so terrible to have something that teaches right and wrong. Yes, people have used it incorrectly, and for that they will have to answer to God. No excuse for that!

As to God should forgive, He does if one repents and changes their ways. He forgives whom He will, we are commanded to forgive all.

As for the reasons about gays, read Romans 1:22-32, below. I think God's mind on the matter is pretty clear.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
 
Truth,

Second, just because men change and want to make, unmake religion to suit or justify themselves, does not make it right.
But Christianity is a creation of man and is constantly evolving and adapting to reality, albeit extremely slowly. For example in 1633 Galieo was forced by the inquisition to make this statement ……I must altogether abandon the false opinion that the sun is the center of the world and immobile, and that the earth is not the center of the world and moves,…….

Christianity has been constantly forced to change its rules and ideas each time science shows them to be wrong or when it becomes extremely obvious. For most of the past 2000 years Jews were heavily and brutally persecuted by Christians until the holocaust when Christianity finally announced that such persecution is wrong.

Unless God says it is okay, it is not.
Don’t be silly. Imaginary gods have never said anything; they have always been and are still a figment of man’s imagination. The rules of Christianity were written by men for men.

Who are men to change what God has decreed?
Those who can see reason.

That is like saying the traffic laws do not apply to me, I can speed if I want and who cares what is right.
No, there is no valid analogy, because those laws were written by men in agreement of men to protect the freedom of men.

I love how people claim that those who do not approve of homosexuality are labeled as bigots. I do not like adultery, does that mean that I am bigoted against adulterers? Garbage.
Homosexuality does no harm to others, adultery does.

To those who say let whatever is natural be the rule.
Oh I hope not. There are many things in nature that are atrocious. But it is usually the religionists who claim that homosexuality is not natural in an attempt to justify their bigotry.

We are not animals!
Yes we are.

Is it excusable for a man to cheat on his wife because it is natural for him to want sex with more than one woman? There is no excuse for it.
Adultery has nothing to do with homosexuality. They are two very separate and unrelated issues.

The thing that separates us from the other animals is our ability to reason, but we are still driven by powerful primeval basal instincts just like all animals.

If you are atheist, well I guess no rules apply, do whatever you want
But that doesn’t work. We all live in a society where we have generated rules and laws for the benefit of all. We use our ability to reason to build such rules. No recourse to a supernatural entity has ever been required.

And for those who dislike Christ and His teachings, well, it is so terrible to have something that teaches right and wrong. Yes, people have used it incorrectly, and for that they will have to answer to God. No excuse for that!
The persecution of homosexuality as interpreted by current Christianity is clearly wrong. There appears no rational basis for such teachings.

As for the reasons about gays, read Romans 1:22-32, below. I think God's mind on the matter is pretty clear.
Your idea of clarity leaves much to be desired. I only found this single verse from your quotes to be close to relevant.

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

You might have done better to quote from the RSV which is much more explicit …27…and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.

But the essence of the message is clear that homosexuality is considered by this author to be unnatural, but as we have shown earlier homosexuality is natural. The bible message is just simple bigotry.
 
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