How GR curved space time works?
- Thread starter BdS
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That's good then...I'll post when and where I see fit, knowing that you can remain at peace with yourself and the world.
Not sure about a rejection complex, [
] and must plead ignorant of that possibility as I have never had any need to see a psychologist anyway.I'm always at peace with the world and myself, while at the same time not suffering fools and fraudsters at anytime. Maybe I have my beautiful wife to thank for that though!
Accepted, but it was mentioned that the plank and ball attracted each other...that assumes gravity, which assumes space/time curvature.
That's good then...I'll post when and where I see fit, knowing that you can remain at peace with yourself and the world.
Not sure about a rejection complex, [
I'm always at peace with the world and myself, while at the same time not suffering fools and fraudsters at anytime. Maybe I have my beautiful wife to thank for that though!
For evidence of fools and fraudsters you need not look much further than yourself, as I have articulated on many occassions.
I don't care nor want to know about your wife or any other relations.
I don't care about whether you're at peace with the world. I don't want to know. Why did you find the need to tell me ? This IS real proof of a rejection complex. You are finding it difficult to detach yourself from me.
I don't want to know anything about you. Not interested. Zip. Nadda.
Bye !
The post where you rejected the use of common sense, or the one where you decided to tell me about your wife ?
Not interested in anything from you.
Stop trying to force yourslef upon me.
BdS
Registered Senior Member
paddoboy said:
Yes the ball and plank have gravity, but in the experiment the sloped plank is supposed to signifying a third gravitational curve the earths gravitational curvature.
Lakon said:
Yes
Boris2 said:
Yes it would be in free fall and potential energy would be released at maximum acceleration.
Boris2 said:
Having no gravity is having no mass, so yes there would be no curvature.
rr6 said:
A Pushing force.
Easy to explain, the photons originate at the sun with an outward momentum, the photons hit the object and push it away. easy no problems.
rr6 said:
A pulling force.
The problem with pulling forces is that you need a physical connected thing to the object you are pulling. The biggest problem in gravitational physics is this, how do you explain two objects pull each other without any physically connected thing between them? eg. The sun and earth are gravitationally bound, they are mutually pulling on each other. If we say a force is responsible for the attraction between them, then we need to explain how this force is mediated between them.
Now its easy to say a pulling force is responsible for the pulling. But how do you explain it? eg. I want to pull you towards me, but you are out of my reach. I cant throw something at you, because thats going to push you away. So how do you explain that a force is originating at the sun and traveling towards earth, then pulling earth towards the sun? If the force is originating at the sun and traveling towards the earth, then the earth must be pushed away, because the direction of momentum of the force is towards the earth, it should push it away instead of pulling it towards. I can tie something to you then pull you towards me. What is tying the earth and sun together to pull them towards each other? I think that's why Einstein came up with curve space time, the curves are responsible for the attraction and its not a force, its a potential.
I have tried to understand it as gravity has a inward traveling mechanism, but that does not solve the problem. You still need something to tell that inward thing to come inward and that inward thing has still got to be notified to move inward by an outward thing.
Newton said it like this...
Newton said:
Einstein invented curved space time to solve the problem. IMHO, I dont physically understand the curves working without there still being a force to supply the potential.
ahhh i was quoting the OP. anyway the attraction could be by "forces" other than gravity. van der waals, electrostatic etc. the exact mechanism isn't mentioned, just that they ''attract each other". also if the force is gravity then why would the ball roll down the plank? the ball and the plank are the only source of gravity, there is no external source and if there is no external source which way is down? far simpler to assume that the ball wont move.
all things being equal the ball will move to the gravitational centre of the plank.
all things being equal the ball will move to the gravitational centre of the plank.
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the "force" is theorised to be mediated by the exchange of virtual gravitons.
http://www.whillyard.com/science-pages/gravity.html
What Is the Mechanism For Angles To Exist?
A contractive force results with a pushing OUT the baby from the womb and/or of photons from the sun.
The sun ergo the photons are resultant of gravity ergo some, most if not all puhing-OUT forces are a resultant of contractive pulling-IN forces.
Gravity be mass-attractive ergo contractive gravitational spacetime
I believe your are intending to reference a fulcrum aka leverage point. and that is true for both a pulling-IN or OUT phenomena or a pushing-IN or OUT phenomena.
My point is again, that, most if not all of the pushing-OUT or IN phenomena are a resultant of pulling-IN phenomena. See my given examples above again.
Your asking what is the mechanism for gravities mass-attractive phenomena. Muscle has only one signal sent to it, and that signal results in the muscle contracting. When the brain stops sending that signal, the muscles relaxes. A cross section slice of the The myosin(SP)--- muscle fibers ---show that they are in a hexagonal array.
They become constricted/contracted INward. I do not know the exact mechanism for the constrictive/contraction of muscle fiber or of gravity.
Agreed, and my simplistic texticons were and attempt to show two scenarios for that mass-attractive relationship i.e:
1) involves gravity surrounding and embracing--- geodesically ex (O) ---each particle individually as a ultra-high tension ergo ultra-thin/micro, geodesic membrane,
i.e. for ultra-high tension, think of a rubber band that has been stretched to its breaking point without breaking, and it wants to pull itself back together to its original point of state/phase of rest,
and, either there also exists a geodesic membrane around both particles, as whole set of two--- ex (OO) ---or as thin line of mass-attraction between the two ex ( O>--<O ) and not overall geodesic membrane that surrounds both as a whole set of two.
I agree but two things first in those regards;
1) a muscle man is seen pulling a locomotive or the box car with his nipples or his teeth and needs the Earth as his fulcrum/leverage point to pull the train towards himself.
2) We never see a muscle man pushing as train becuase that is harder than pulling i.e. pulling-IN is the path of least resistence, while pushing-OUT away is more energy intensiver ergo hard to do.
Ex. teh typical manual hand saw was designed to cut on the push motion/stroke, but there are Japenese manual hand saws that were designed to cut on the pull stroke/motion, and those saws are generally smaller, with thinner blades.
So back to your "how do you explain it" i.e. how do I explain a pulling-IN contractive force, of specifically mass-attraction is best understood by me, via the above example I gave involving ultra-high tension geodesic membranes that are stretched to there limits without breaking, and have a mechanism that wants to attract them back to there initial rest state.
Tho it may be that rest state is never reached/attained ergo the pos-neg forces may act to keep gravity from ever reaching absolute rest state/phase. Think of it as gravity having a limit to how far it can come to approachings its rest state/phase because pos-neg forces repelling forces will not allow gravity to ever get to that state of equilibrous rest.
All of my above given scenarios is my best understanding and explanations at this time.
Perhaps the Earth is moving away from the sun, I dunno. In all such scenarios there are many factors and varibles to be considered. We already known that gravity is very weak force compared to pos-neg charges or any of the other known bosonic forces.
See my above geodesic membranes of ultra-thin/micro stretched gravity. Naught is ever lost--- 2nd law of thermodynamics ---because gravity is will strectch but will never break ergo gravity is integral, geodesice whole membrane that surrounds every particle of Universe, and at the entropic heat death of Universe, we can visualize gravity embracing the single, ergo very flat, lowest frequency photon:
1) either as one large geodesic membrane that goes around the one, very large, very flat, lowest frequency single photon-- ex
(|) ---, or,
2) O | O and I am more partial the latter #2, because of differrent reasons, that I have elaborated on in various other forum threads around here for a few months.
Having two geodesic membranes invokes a left-skew and right-skew scenario and that fits very well with the geometry of the geodesic icosahedron's-- think geodesic domes ---31 great circles coming in both left and right versions.
Also, in Synergetics, there is a cubo-octahedron, which exhibits the icosahedrons left and right scenarios and this cubo-octahedron, will contract to a semmingly 2D phase/state as 2frequency triangle--- think single very flat photon ---and this allows for a specific ratio set of 2-1 in the number of external triangles, wherein, I see this circumferential set of these three triangles around a central triangle, being the basis for Universe having and imbalance/asymmetry of matter-antimatter, or left and right handed amino-acids etc..type phenomena.
And that may even extend into why biologicals are only using left-handed amino-acids. I.e. the seemingly flat, 2D, 2 frequency triangle--- the very flat photon ---has two of its perimeter/cirumferential triangles attached to either the left or right geodesic membrane, and the one other pereimeter/circumferential, triangle attached to the other geodesic membrane.
This creates a basis for some asymmetries we find with Universe if not most or all asymmetries. There is more rationally logical and common sense geometries associated with Synergetics considerations of the cubo-octahedron that fit into the above scenarios in excellent way.
Ex the cubo-octahedron folds into a Euclidean double sine-wave configuration that is topologically identical to any curved double sine-wave geometry ex the electric-magenetic PHOTON as a double sine-wave pattern. Most just scoff at these geometric associations and much more that I have not laid out for you.
I think they scoff for differrent reasons but primarily because the are in unfamiliar territory and you know how the old 50'smovies go, the humans are afraid of what they don't understand so they shoot from the hip the alien robot--- ex the day the Earth Stood Still ---. This also involves the ego.
Boris, what tells a rubber band to contract? Is it memory? If gravity contracts, and causes the pos-neg forces to get and untenable phase/state, that they are forced to repel each other, then the gravity is stretched outward, and maximum expansion--- ex entropic heat death ---the sum total of all pos-neg forces are at there lowest energy state/phase, and gravity can now become the ultimate deternination of the fate of Universe,
i.e. to either break or contract back inward with all of Universes pos-neg forces becoming weaker if only a little bit. Here too I can begin to see another reason why, at the entropic heat death end, there exists at minimum, at least two geodesic membranes, to help divide and conquer the pos-neg forces overall, if not in all local places.
Think of the infinite set of angles that define a perfect circle( 2D enclosure ) or perfect sphere( 3D enclosure ) i.e. the minimal circle is a 2D enclosureis an that minimum is a triangle with 3 angles--- ^ ---, the mininal sphere is a tetrahedron with 12 surface angles-- \Y/ a birds eye view of a tetrahedron ---.
The point here being that we never have infinite set of angles with their associated point-- V ---i.e. we reach a finite but ultra-high frequency set of angles as the ultra-high tension geodesic membrane and this then goes to heart of why is there angle i.e. say we have a single straight line vectorial trajectory >_________> or as >------->,
we have to ask ourselves why would it curve, why would change its angle? V Maybe it is pos-neg. Maybe it is mass-attraction. Maybe it is something else or commbination of various forces or phenomena.
r6
A contractive force results with a pushing OUT the baby from the womb and/or of photons from the sun.
The sun ergo the photons are resultant of gravity ergo some, most if not all puhing-OUT forces are a resultant of contractive pulling-IN forces.
Gravity be mass-attractive ergo contractive gravitational spacetime
Yes, pulling-IN or pullin-OUT as with pulling something apart. Ex muscles contract ergo the arm swings the hammer INto the nail as pushing phenomena.
I believe your are intending to reference a fulcrum aka leverage point. and that is true for both a pulling-IN or OUT phenomena or a pushing-IN or OUT phenomena.
My point is again, that, most if not all of the pushing-OUT or IN phenomena are a resultant of pulling-IN phenomena. See my given examples above again.
Your asking what is the mechanism for gravities mass-attractive phenomena. Muscle has only one signal sent to it, and that signal results in the muscle contracting. When the brain stops sending that signal, the muscles relaxes. A cross section slice of the The myosin(SP)--- muscle fibers ---show that they are in a hexagonal array.
They become constricted/contracted INward. I do not know the exact mechanism for the constrictive/contraction of muscle fiber or of gravity.
Agreed, and my simplistic texticons were and attempt to show two scenarios for that mass-attractive relationship i.e:
1) involves gravity surrounding and embracing--- geodesically ex (O) ---each particle individually as a ultra-high tension ergo ultra-thin/micro, geodesic membrane,
i.e. for ultra-high tension, think of a rubber band that has been stretched to its breaking point without breaking, and it wants to pull itself back together to its original point of state/phase of rest,
and, either there also exists a geodesic membrane around both particles, as whole set of two--- ex (OO) ---or as thin line of mass-attraction between the two ex ( O>--<O ) and not overall geodesic membrane that surrounds both as a whole set of two.
I agree but two things first in those regards;
1) a muscle man is seen pulling a locomotive or the box car with his nipples or his teeth and needs the Earth as his fulcrum/leverage point to pull the train towards himself.
2) We never see a muscle man pushing as train becuase that is harder than pulling i.e. pulling-IN is the path of least resistence, while pushing-OUT away is more energy intensiver ergo hard to do.
Ex. teh typical manual hand saw was designed to cut on the push motion/stroke, but there are Japenese manual hand saws that were designed to cut on the pull stroke/motion, and those saws are generally smaller, with thinner blades.
So back to your "how do you explain it" i.e. how do I explain a pulling-IN contractive force, of specifically mass-attraction is best understood by me, via the above example I gave involving ultra-high tension geodesic membranes that are stretched to there limits without breaking, and have a mechanism that wants to attract them back to there initial rest state.
Tho it may be that rest state is never reached/attained ergo the pos-neg forces may act to keep gravity from ever reaching absolute rest state/phase. Think of it as gravity having a limit to how far it can come to approachings its rest state/phase because pos-neg forces repelling forces will not allow gravity to ever get to that state of equilibrous rest.
All of my above given scenarios is my best understanding and explanations at this time.
Perhaps the Earth is moving away from the sun, I dunno. In all such scenarios there are many factors and varibles to be considered. We already known that gravity is very weak force compared to pos-neg charges or any of the other known bosonic forces.
See my above geodesic membranes of ultra-thin/micro stretched gravity. Naught is ever lost--- 2nd law of thermodynamics ---because gravity is will strectch but will never break ergo gravity is integral, geodesice whole membrane that surrounds every particle of Universe, and at the entropic heat death of Universe, we can visualize gravity embracing the single, ergo very flat, lowest frequency photon:
1) either as one large geodesic membrane that goes around the one, very large, very flat, lowest frequency single photon-- ex
(|) ---, or,
2) O | O and I am more partial the latter #2, because of differrent reasons, that I have elaborated on in various other forum threads around here for a few months.
Having two geodesic membranes invokes a left-skew and right-skew scenario and that fits very well with the geometry of the geodesic icosahedron's-- think geodesic domes ---31 great circles coming in both left and right versions.
Also, in Synergetics, there is a cubo-octahedron, which exhibits the icosahedrons left and right scenarios and this cubo-octahedron, will contract to a semmingly 2D phase/state as 2frequency triangle--- think single very flat photon ---and this allows for a specific ratio set of 2-1 in the number of external triangles, wherein, I see this circumferential set of these three triangles around a central triangle, being the basis for Universe having and imbalance/asymmetry of matter-antimatter, or left and right handed amino-acids etc..type phenomena.
And that may even extend into why biologicals are only using left-handed amino-acids. I.e. the seemingly flat, 2D, 2 frequency triangle--- the very flat photon ---has two of its perimeter/cirumferential triangles attached to either the left or right geodesic membrane, and the one other pereimeter/circumferential, triangle attached to the other geodesic membrane.
This creates a basis for some asymmetries we find with Universe if not most or all asymmetries. There is more rationally logical and common sense geometries associated with Synergetics considerations of the cubo-octahedron that fit into the above scenarios in excellent way.
Ex the cubo-octahedron folds into a Euclidean double sine-wave configuration that is topologically identical to any curved double sine-wave geometry ex the electric-magenetic PHOTON as a double sine-wave pattern. Most just scoff at these geometric associations and much more that I have not laid out for you.
I think they scoff for differrent reasons but primarily because the are in unfamiliar territory and you know how the old 50'smovies go, the humans are afraid of what they don't understand so they shoot from the hip the alien robot--- ex the day the Earth Stood Still ---. This also involves the ego.
Boris, what tells a rubber band to contract? Is it memory? If gravity contracts, and causes the pos-neg forces to get and untenable phase/state, that they are forced to repel each other, then the gravity is stretched outward, and maximum expansion--- ex entropic heat death ---the sum total of all pos-neg forces are at there lowest energy state/phase, and gravity can now become the ultimate deternination of the fate of Universe,
i.e. to either break or contract back inward with all of Universes pos-neg forces becoming weaker if only a little bit. Here too I can begin to see another reason why, at the entropic heat death end, there exists at minimum, at least two geodesic membranes, to help divide and conquer the pos-neg forces overall, if not in all local places.
Think of the infinite set of angles that define a perfect circle( 2D enclosure ) or perfect sphere( 3D enclosure ) i.e. the minimal circle is a 2D enclosureis an that minimum is a triangle with 3 angles--- ^ ---, the mininal sphere is a tetrahedron with 12 surface angles-- \Y/ a birds eye view of a tetrahedron ---.
The point here being that we never have infinite set of angles with their associated point-- V ---i.e. we reach a finite but ultra-high frequency set of angles as the ultra-high tension geodesic membrane and this then goes to heart of why is there angle i.e. say we have a single straight line vectorial trajectory >_________> or as >------->,
we have to ask ourselves why would it curve, why would change its angle? V Maybe it is pos-neg. Maybe it is mass-attraction. Maybe it is something else or commbination of various forces or phenomena.
r6
BdS
Registered Senior Member
Its not only gravity that has this problem, its all attractive forces/fields in nature.
Try explain two magnets attracting each other using the same logic.
If you don't believe in magic, its because you haven't tried to understand attractive forces in nature...
It makes me doubt the mechanics of the whole universe as we know them.
Try explain two magnets attracting each other using the same logic.
If you don't believe in magic, its because you haven't tried to understand attractive forces in nature...
It makes me doubt the mechanics of the whole universe as we know them.
Boris, what tells a rubber band to contract? Is it memory? If gravity contracts, and causes the pos-neg forces to get and untenable phase/state, that they are forced to repel each other, then the gravity is stretched outward, and maximum expansion--- ex entropic heat death ---the sum total of all pos-neg forces are at there lowest energy state/phase, and gravity can now become the ultimate deternination of the fate of Universe
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The property of "elasticity "
Elasticity is the property of solid materials to return to their original shape and size after the forces deforming them have been removed.
Recall Hooke's law — first stated formally by Robert Hooke (1635-1703) of England in The True Theory of Elasticity or Springiness (1676).
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
The property of "elasticity "
Elasticity is the property of solid materials to return to their original shape and size after the forces deforming them have been removed.
Recall Hooke's law — first stated formally by Robert Hooke (1635-1703) of England in The True Theory of Elasticity or Springiness (1676).
Infolding Contraction, Leads To Outfolding Expansion > Infolding Again > OUT-folding
So if Universe expands and then contracts does that mean the Universe is "elastic"? Does an atoms or any fermions or bosons expand-contract, and if so, is due to elasticity?
One way of things to expand, is by unfolding their infoldedness. Infoldiness is seemingly like compression or tension. When the compression forces are release, their is expansion, when the tension forces are relaxed there is.......?
The OS-jitterbug infolds its 8 surface triangles and 6 surface squares to a seemingly/superficially, 2D, quadra-valent set of 9 triangles.
When it unfolds from this seemingly 2D configuration/phase/state, its once again is 3D volumetric polyhedron.
My guess is, that similar circumstances exist with hyper-spatial, polychorons.
The rubber band is under tension i.e. it gets thinner as does the balloon or bublle, as approaches its maximum limit expansion.
The differrence with gravity, is that it does not come-apart an loose its wholistic integral tension or tensegrity. imho
r6
So if Universe expands and then contracts does that mean the Universe is "elastic"? Does an atoms or any fermions or bosons expand-contract, and if so, is due to elasticity?
One way of things to expand, is by unfolding their infoldedness. Infoldiness is seemingly like compression or tension. When the compression forces are release, their is expansion, when the tension forces are relaxed there is.......?
The OS-jitterbug infolds its 8 surface triangles and 6 surface squares to a seemingly/superficially, 2D, quadra-valent set of 9 triangles.
When it unfolds from this seemingly 2D configuration/phase/state, its once again is 3D volumetric polyhedron.
My guess is, that similar circumstances exist with hyper-spatial, polychorons.
The rubber band is under tension i.e. it gets thinner as does the balloon or bublle, as approaches its maximum limit expansion.
The differrence with gravity, is that it does not come-apart an loose its wholistic integral tension or tensegrity. imho
r6
Seattle
Valued Senior Member
I stated "if" i.e. we appear to observe it expanding but according to your given definition, expansion alone is not to be "elastic".
So when we take thin soap film turn it into a 3D bubble that also does not fit the definition of being "elastic".
As a child-- grade school ---we could take 2D like planar piece of paper and infold in such a way that it became a complex polyhedral with a 3D volumetric aspects that we think could manipulate with our fingers have out fold one direction then infold closed then out fold in another direction with little notes on various faces that could be seen then hidden.
As adult some one showed me how to take 2D like planar piece of paper fold in such way and, then poke a hole in the corner, then put it too my mouth an blow into like a blowing into balloon and it would expand into a cube.
Orgami does lots of complex infolding and outfolding manipulations.
Once you can understand some of these common everyday pheomena then you perhaps you can begin to ponder if gravitational spacetime or any other fermions or bosons can have elasticity via infolding and outfolding processes.
Once you actually had a hands on experience with some of this, including the OS-Jitterbug--- aka the operating system of Univere ---then perhaps you will begin to understand infolding and outfolding better because of the hand held experience.
The OS-jitterbug folds into more exotic spaces-- and a few common spaces -- than any other hand held toy on Earth that I'm aware of, as well as performing the six fundamental motions of Universe. Again, until you have personal experience of these hand-held infoldgin outfolding experiences they will appear alien or foreign to you.
Also, once youve experienced them first hand their seemingly mysterious complexity will not seem as complex as the non-experienced mind presumes them to be. At least some of them. Some origami is quite complex.
What about the Hoberman sphere, it expands and contracts so it must have "elasticity", even tho it is composed of rigid parts, and that too is same for the OS-jitterbug.
r6