Jennifer Murphy
Registered Senior Member
My mistake. Sarkus made what I considered a belittling response to a post by BlueSky. You then replied to Sarkus and I got mixed up. Sorry.
How is prayer supposed to work?
- Thread starter Jennifer Murphy
- Start date
BlueSky
Registered Senior Member
No, that’s not really the full picture. This answer is books deep.
Certain people throughout history were/are closer to God than others. Noah comes to mind. I suspect this this is true today. One fellow in the OT was so close to God, he never saw death; he was just ‘transported’ to Gods realm.
Most of the guys who were so close, God got really mad at because they asked too much and did bad things and not leaving room for God to work things out. You should read the speech God made to Job when Job demanded answer on how the world works and why his life was going to pot when he devoutly followed God. Its pretty wild. Utube has some good ones. Let me know if you want a link.
Anyway, just because we ask for something does not mean that it will happen, EVEN if your in close relationship with God. But he does answer. I find he speaks more to me than answered prayers. ( Although I am wrestling God currently) He alone has control over everything and is working things out for those who love him. He does promise tribulation if you follow him, I can speak that this happens. It’s not all butterflies and buttercups unfortunately. Thousands of Christians die every year by muder for their faith. But you never hear about it because of the liberal media.
But if your close to God, have a contrite heart, actually know him, are obedient & pray hard and he might grant a request. However, with that said, he heard me when I was still a complete outcaste, so he will listen to use all at any stage of our relationship. That’s neat. I have had answers, even when I was not looking for them. One should know the OT stories and see how he dealt with our forefathers before can we even begin to know him. It would take 100 life times to learn all the wisdom and the depths of God in just the OT.
BlueSky
Registered Senior Member
And that quote sort of wrecks the idea of intercessionary prayer.
IF the request is in line with the "purpose" then it's granted, otherwise not.
But, equally, if the outcome is in line with that "purpose" then the praying isn't required at all.
Given this "purpose"[sup]1[/sup] then prayer itself is moot.
1 Plus, of course, that "purpose" would include suffering, joy and everything else including some individuals being atheist/ believers of - according to you - the wrong religion. (And thereby damned from the get-go). Nice, really nice.[/QUOTE]
Would you as a CEO of a major company grant a wish by an employee for something that is directly in opposition your the company’s mission or tomsomething you knew would not end well? Not an entirely accurate portrail. See my last post to Jennifer. There are no rules or guarantees in prayer, ....but a fervent prayer by a righteous man will avail much.... your odds goes up if you are close to God, but your requests should be in Genersl agreement with the global, macro, overall plan of God to redeem mankind, not to mention the condition of ones heart. But he loves giving good things to those who love him according to the bible anyway. He can and does give wonderful gifts.
The suffering of mankind is mankinds doing. We are free, free to live with or without god, each has logical conclusions if lived fully to their end.
There is no belittling, and no attacking. There is merely a different, and entirely reasonable, interpretation of what was offered, and I was offering it as a response to highlight that what one person might see as God answering prayer, others see as something rather more mundane. If you see that as an attack, or as belittling, then winter has come early to sciforums, it seems.
Explanations of how prayer might work are only as good as the beliefs upon which that explanation works. If you don't share those underlying beliefs then no explanation will be satisfactory. All it will boil down to is, as I previously said: it works because they believe it does. And to add to that: it works in the way they believe it does because they believe that is the way it works.
But can I ask: what is your purpose here in asking the question? Are you here just to gauge people's belief? Or are you looking for a more official answer from scriptures? The latter doesn't require belief, and asking believers will likely get you many different answers, few if any of which will provide you with what you want.
Are you asking so that you can poke holes in their belief? Are you asking for the sake of scientific study? Are you asking so that you can smugly hold yourself above their thinking, even if you're careful not to reveal that agenda through your words? Are you asking because you have your own belief in the matter and are looking to challenge it?
If you are doing a theological study then might I suggest you don't specifically ask believers... instead ask what it says in scriptures. Believers and non-believers have studied the bible. Believing doesn't give one an automatic insight into a correct objective interpretation.
That wasn’t my response.
Why do you feel the need to exaggerate?
My basic response was, because God allows it to.
Now if you don’t believe in, or accept God, then you’re going to have a problem accepting that.
I did attempt to engage her with a little more detail, but she was not interested. Because her enquiry is false.
The level of discussion she is engaging in, is outdated on these forums.
How is that question judgemental, or biased?
If you don’t accept God, then you don’t think praying to God works. That’s correct. Right?
So at this point, in order to make progress, the discussion needs to be about God.
Otherwise what are we communicating to each other.
What you don’t seem to realise is that, in cases like these, the atheist motive is not to engage in discussion.
JM is not interested in learning how prayer works.
She is not interested in learning about God.
She simply breaks into the “There is no evidence song”, then reverts back to her empty questions, preferably directed toward Christians who simply have faith in their religion, but have not given any real thought as to who and what God is, and how it is we are connected.
She doesn’t want to know that stuff. Because she will not walk away feeling smug and satisfied, in her own worldview.
Which she has no intention of altering.
I wouldn’t want to engage with someone like me, if I simply wanted satiate my desire to patronise theists.
On that, she has made a good call.
Jan.
Out of curiosity, and possible progression.
What makes you think it is in the spiritual interest of that child, to cured of cancer?
Jan.
You make my point for me.
I saw that: you persist in omitting the word "allegedly".
Not if "god" has a plan and is, as claimed, omniscient and omnipotent.
If all you are doing here is polling for data on repetitious belief then can I sincerely suggest you do it in a religious website that caters for such, and are more willing to give you unchallenged views on the matter? This is predominantly a science forum, and the religious subforum does not typically allow unsupported claims/beliefs to go unchecked. It is not in its nature to do so. Your intention for this thread is like throwing a deer in the lion cage so that you can study the deer, and then expecting the lions to simply watch. You can cry foul if you want when a lion rakes out with its claws, but wouldn't it be better to simply go to the deer enclosure?
BlueSky
Registered Senior Member
- Doesn't God love all of us "very much"?
- Does he love some of us more than others? And, if so, is he more likely to grant requests (on behalf of others) from those he loves more?
If all you are doing here is polling for data on repetitious belief then can I sincerely suggest you do it in a religious website that caters for such, and are more willing to give you unchallenged views on the matter? This is predominantly a science forum, and the religious subforum does not typically allow unsupported claims/beliefs to go unchecked. It is not in its nature to do so. Your intention for this thread is like throwing a deer in the lion cage so that you can study the deer, and then expecting the lions to simply watch. You can cry foul if you want when a lion rakes out with its claws, but wouldn't it be better to simply go to the deer enclosure?
Good idea sarkus. Pm sent to Jennifer.
Ciao!
Last edited:
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
That does not answer the question asked.
Enquiries are not false. What you mean is that she is biased; you guess at her motive, despite the fact that she has not stated a motive, beyond research. That's an ad hom, and is not a valid argument.
She is not interested in an answer that does not answer her question. This is on you. Try answering in good faith.
For a theist, it is the perfect answer. Why would you dispute that?
They are if there is a false motive behind them.
Which is the case.
She is as obviously biased, as she is female (based on her name). That is not an issue.
Actually she has stated a motive, which I believe to be false.
That her motive is false, is not an argument, but an observation. She has proven to me, that her motive is false, by not responding to my questions, despite claiming to be seeking answers of how prayer works. There is no need for me to attack her, as she has automatically conceded without attempting to see if her enquires could be met.
Jan.
Seattle
Valued Senior Member
My bad, you are right, this world is full of sin and misery and the spiritual thing to do would be to take a child out of all this early though cancer. Of course, the abortion clinics are really the ones doing God's work.
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
Well put.
There's a term for something that only works on those predisposed to accept it. It's called confirmation bias.
Superstitious people think that bad luck comes from being crossed by a black cat. Rational people do not.
That’s an understandable reaction from an atheist. But the atheist cannot comprehend the theist reaction, because they are atheist.
What does that have to do with anything?
Jan.
I’m merely creating a scenario, and asking a question. There’s no need to get all emotional about it.
Do you think you can pull yourself together and hold this conversation?
Jan.
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
Since an attack on a person is not an attack on the argument made, it does not diminish the argument one bit, and it keeps you out of trouble.
Apologies, Jennifer. I'm not helping by feeding this troll.
Seattle
Valued Senior Member
Emotional? Believe me, no thread on sciforums is going to make me emotional.
We both know there is no intelligent conversion to be had here. There is pain and suffering on Earth therefore some will say that occurs because God gives "us" free will. Of course one could be given free will in a world without disease.
It's doing kids a spiritual favor to take them out of this world early to go to where the streets are paved with gold but abortion (which does this even earlier) isn't God's will.
It's ridiculous to attempt to rationally discuss an irrational subject, don't you agree?
I will give you some of mine an my Moms perspective on these questons i hope will be helpful.!!!
I thank if you have beleifs that prayer works you may or may not benifit healthwize from your's or the prayers of others.!!!
My Mom had beleifs that prayer can work after her first hart-felt/sincere prayer was granted... an then 2 more such prayers after that was granted... so for her the proof was in the puddin.!!!
Ive never had a prayer answrd but i dont recall ever prayin to God for anythang.!!!
@Seatle
Don’t worry about it.
Jan.
Don’t worry about it.
Jan.