If Jesus died for our sins

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No it's not. See the example below that I offered to Lori to show you why greed is not always a bad thing.

For example. You and your family, mother and father are crossing a field, it's extremely cold and everyone is struggling to make it, your nearly starving. You mother and father can no longer go on and you have 5 children to watch. It's greed that allows you to leave your parents to die, it's selfish greed that allows your children to live in that situation.

If your parents cannot continue then it would be wrong for them to want you to say and continue to suffer depravation when there is a change that moving on would give you a chance to find sustenance.

I cannot see how leaving them would be an act of greed in this case. It would be greed if you did go on and found food and then did not go back to help them. It is not selfish greed that would allow you to live in such a situation because staying with your parents would not cause them to have food and live, you would both die.

So is greed bad ? yes and no, it can be either.

Greed is bad.

In the situation I described, there is no good outcome, only a better option. If you stayed with the parents, you all die.

Yes so leaving them would not be taking anything away from them so it would not be an act of greed.

Each of these has it's place and it is not that they should be cherished, but neither is it realistic to remove them from us.

I disagree.

Ok, so then I don't need to believe in him at all then. Problem solved.

Of course you do if you want eternity with Him.

So why don't you just stop eating, what's the point. It's called instinct. We do what we need to survive and sometimes that is not pretty.

We eat to avoid the pain and discomfort we feel when we get very hungry. Life and death is another thing. Human beings are higher than animals and on many occasions that nobility has caused many to accept death rather than descend into greed.

Survival is everything. It's not just about you and me, it's about all of us, the future generations and beyond. Yes, individually we are all going to die, but I for one want to live as long as possible, see my kids grow etc.

So you love this world. That’s a fault within you. This world is a terrible place and life in it sux. In a way i am not surprised, you do not believe in God and eternity in a perfect existence. The best you can hope for is the limited lifetime you have in this faulty world. I guess with this mindset you can justify in your own mind any action no matter how evil to gain yourself another day of physical life. How sad.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

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To be forgiven one must say they are sorry to God and mean it. If they continue to sin they did not mean it so they were never forgiven.

Then you will never be forgiven.


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[LostInThought7]

Greed is different from wanting.

I want food. I eat. That's wanting.

I want lots of expensive, extravagant food, more than I need to live. I spend thousands of dollars of a meal, and not only am I stuffed, but I get hedonistic joy from what all that I have.

I want to stay out of the rain. I buy a house.

Compared to having a million dollar mansion, where I wallow in my emotional attachment to a material, inanimate thing.

"But wait, that means that you should live spending as little money as physically possible on yourself, and instead, giving that money to others?"

Did Jesus have a leather coat? Or a computer with DSL? A home at all?

 

[Adstar]

Where does it say that, didn't he die for our sins. So wasn't that death mean't to represent all of what we do, because we do not know what we do ?

He died for those who believe He died for them and His death made atonement for their sins.

As for forgiveness.

It is something one gives to another.

It is something that the other person must accept. Otherwise the person is not forgiven.

As a Christian i am called on to give forgiveness to anyone who asks me for it. And i am called to pass on any vengeance for the wrongs done me to God who will judge.

If a person who has done me wrong later believes Jesus they will be forgiven all the wrongs they have done to me.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[LostInThought7]

"As a Christian i am called on to give forgiveness to anyone who asks me for it.

No you're not. You're supposed to love your enemy. If you only love those who love you, you're no better than the "heathen" thieves, and such.

And not just in your mind, but you're not supposed to hate or judge those that aren't sorry for their wrongdoings against you. If they slap one cheek, let them slap the other. If they force you to walk one mile, walk two. Lend without expecting repayment; if someone takes your cloak, give them your tunic as well.

Unless you have a verse that supports your theory...?

EDIT: I misread the last half of what I originally quoted, sorry.

 

[jpappl]

Adstar,

I cannot see how leaving them would be an act of greed in this case. It would be greed if you did go on and found food and then did not go back to help them. It is not selfish greed that would allow you to live in such a situation because staying with your parents would not cause them to have food and live, you would both die.

You don't see it because you don't want to admit your wrong. It's greed, it's selfishness, it's the instinct to survive above all else.

“ Survival is everything. It's not just about you and me, it's about all of us, the future generations and beyond. Yes, individually we are all going to die, but I for one want to live as long as possible, see my kids grow etc. ”

So you love this world. That’s a fault within you. This world is a terrible place and life in it sux. In a way i am not surprised, you do not believe in God and eternity in a perfect existence. The best you can hope for is the limited lifetime you have in this faulty world. I guess with this mindset you can justify in your own mind any action no matter how evil to gain yourself another day of physical life. How sad.

Close. I believe that when I die I might go to another place or maybe not, nobody knows what happens to us and neither do you.

This life and this world doesn't suck. I am suprised to hear you say that since our life and world is per you god given, sounds like a major slam on your god.

 

[edenocp]

I answered you jp. you know what you are doing.

God tests us not we Him.

Jesus said repent. Only sorrow leads to the repentance that gives salvation.
He didn't give us a license to sin as scripture says.

 

[jpappl]

I answered you jp. you know what you are doing.

God tests us not we Him.

Jesus said repent. Only sorrow leads to the repentance that gives salvation.
He didn't give us a license to sin as scripture says.

this was the original question.

No you must tell God you are sorry. Do not worship the creation/creature, worship the Creator.

To sin again and again is to crucify him afresh/over and over. ” ”

Where does it say that, didn't he die for our sins. So wasn't that death mean't to represent all of what we do, because we do not know what we do ?

You replied with:

http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/7-10.htm

"Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death."

Just picked the first one.

Nothing in there says anything about Jesus dying over and over again for our sins. Nothing in there says that if you sin you whole life and say you are sorry and repent that you will not go to heaven.

So try again.

The bottom line is that humans wrote the book. They knew that if they killed everyone who sinned or if only non-sinners would go to heaven, then nobody would be going. So THEY created an escape clause.

Besides that a god would have no reason for us to have to believe in them, indicating that such a god is also full of sin.

But it makes no sense that a god would create such an escape clause.

Answer, we created god and wrote the damn stories ourselves.

 

[edenocp]

you say that man would have an escape clause God did not
Pastors and priests like to say that too but it is not written as such.
Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the holy spirit. False prophets are many.
Truth in man is rare.
God wants a family, children to love and proven men/women.

 

[earth]

edenocp,
This is for your spirit guide,
Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the data packets sent to their brains for their minds to recognize. How did you decide which were false prophets?

 

[edenocp]

you say that man would have an escape clause God did not
Pastors and priests like to say that too but it is not written as such.
Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the holy spirit. False prophets are many.
Truth in man is rare.
God wants a family, children to love and proven men/women.

 

[jpappl]

you say that man would have an escape clause God did not
Pastors and priests like to say that too but it is not written as such.
Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the holy spirit. False prophets are many.
Truth in man is rare.
God wants a family, children to love and proven men/women.

What if those holy men were scam artists.

Do you believe every nut on the street corner.

Joseph Smith has hundreds of millions of followers and he was convicted of fraud, not to mention the whole story reeks of a scam.

It worked just like it has worked before.

And you never answered the question. If you mis-stated previously, no big deal just say so, I am a forgiving person. Otherwise, maybe you can explain it in more detail so that I know where you got the idea.

 

[fellowtraveler]

If Jesus died for our sins, shouldn't we take full advantage of that and sin all the damn time.

I mean wouldn't it be a shame, no a travesty to have him die for our sins and not be expert sinners.

REPLY: I do my part, sinning and such. Except I don`t see it as such and see no need for forgiveness for the usual so called sins. What about forgiveness of eating meat. The torment and killing of animals simply to enhance the enjoyment of eating food. To me, THAT IS SINFUL, or immoral. Some sex for the pure pleasure of it is not immoral to me, as long as it is something both adults desire whether money is part of the deal or not. And it is up to the adults involved to use rubbers to protect each others health. I wish for all to enjoy their lives. Try not to harm each other and help each other if we can. I have killed people, enemy soldiers of the USA ,who were trying to kill me. I may at times feel unhappy about it, but they would have killed me if they could have and hurt me badly , shot me, at times. So I see nothing immoral about all that. Think about that next time you sit down for that steak dinner or BIG MACK and tell me I am immoral or sinful. ...fellowtraverler

 

[jpappl]

REPLY: I do my part, sinning and such. Except I don`t see it as such and see no need for forgiveness for the usual so called sins. What about forgiveness of eating meat. The torment and killing of animals simply to enhance the enjoyment of eating food. To me, THAT IS SINFUL, or immoral. Some sex for the pure pleasure of it is not immoral to me, as long as it is something both adults desire whether money is part of the deal or not. And it is up to the adults involved to use rubbers to protect each others health. I wish for all to enjoy their lives. Try not to harm each other and help each other if we can. I have killed people, enemy soldiers of the USA ,who were trying to kill me. I may at times feel unhappy about it, but they would have killed me if they could have and hurt me badly , shot me, at times. So I see nothing immoral about all that. Think about that next time you sit down for that steak dinner or BIG MACK and tell me I am immoral or sinful. ...fellowtraverler

Good points.

Regarding the part in bold, you would think if there is a god it knows whats in your heart and that should be all that matters. It makes no sense that a god would need us to repent, it would already know. And for those who claimed they were repenting or sorry etc, the god would know if they were bullshitting him and send him to hell anyway.

 

[edenocp]

you will not see the power until you go to the christians.

read all of the new testament carefully

try not being evil and see what happens

 

[jpappl]

you will not see the power until you go to the christians.

read all of the new testament carefully

try not being evil and see what happens

So IOW, you were wrong but can't admit it. That sounds like pride.

I am not being evil, all I did was raise a question of which there doesn't seem to be a good answer.

 

[Photizo]

If Jesus died for our sins, shouldn't we take full advantage of that and sin all the damn time..

When you pass from death to Life, Selfless Love defines who you are, consequently, your perspectives and desires change.

I mean wouldn't it be a shame, no a travesty to have him die for our sins and not be expert sinners.

The travesty is to know what He did, yet deliberately choose to remain the same.

 

[LostInThought7]

"You don't see it because you don't want to admit your wrong. It's greed, it's selfishness, it's the instinct to survive above all else."

Have you read my posts? Have you read about what Jesus has to say about "greed"?

The type of "greed" you're talking about is not what Jesus is talking about. In fact, most humans wouldn't say that a man is greedy if he steals food to survive, if there is no other way. Theft is a different issue, but greed is commonly used as "above and beyond simple desire, wanting, or need".

"Nothing in there says anything about Jesus dying over and over again for our sins."

Dying over and over again for our sins? Unless I'm mistaken, that was supposed to be a poetic phrase by the other poster.

"Nothing in there says that if you sin you whole life and say you are sorry and repent that you will not go to heaven."

Actually, you're completely right. In fact, Jesus tells a parable about a man who works all day, with the agreement that at the end of the day, he will get paid two bucks. Then, minutes before he gets off work, another man starts working, and quits at the same time, and gets paid two bucks. The original man bitches about it.

Now, if you would respond to my post about repenting means, that would be cool.

You CAN sin and sin and sin, then repent, and still go to heaven.

All things are permissible, not all things are beneficial.

God will be the judge of your heart in the end, and even if you think you're following all the rules right, with your nice little loopholes letting you sin as much as you want, just know that God knows your thoughts, and your heart. If he doesn't believe that you are actually sorry, and actually want to serve him instead of serving yourself, you don't go to heaven.

 

[edenocp]

So IOW, you were wrong but can't admit it. That sounds like pride.

I am not being evil, all I did was raise a question of which there doesn't seem to be a good answer.

I think I answered the question.

Sorry I didn't mean to assume you were actually sinning. This is merely discussion.

 

[Adstar]

"As a Christian i am called on to give forgiveness to anyone who asks me for it.

No you're not. You're supposed to love your enemy. If you only love those who love you, you're no better than the "heathen" thieves, and such.

I do love my enemies. I am always willing to forgive. But for one to be forgiven they must seek it. There is no point forgiving someone who does not want it and does not feel they need it.

And not just in your mind, but you're not supposed to hate or judge those that aren't sorry for their wrongdoings against you.

I don't hate them. I feel sorry for them. If a person does not seek forgiveness for the wrongs they have done then they are doomed to a judgement infinitely more horrendous then the wrongs they did.

If they slap one cheek, let them slap the other. If they force you to walk one mile, walk two. Lend without expecting repayment; if someone takes your cloak, give them your tunic as well.

True,, that’s what Jesus said and i believe Him. But still if they do not seek forgiveness for these wrongs then they are doomed. Forgiveness only comes when one seeks it.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days