If you were a psychopath...

James R

This is from the same link Samcdkey posted


"The high incidence of sociopathy in human society has a profound effect on the rest of us who must live on this planet, too, even those of us who have not been clinically traumatized. The individuals who constitute this 4 percent drain our relationships, our bank accounts, our accomplishments, our self-esteem, our very peace on earth.

Yet surprisingly, many people know nothing about this disorder, or if they do, they think only in terms of violent psychopathy - murderers, serial killers, mass murderers - people who have conspicuously broken the law many times over, and who, if caught, will be imprisoned, maybe even put to death by our legal system.

We are not commonly aware of, nor do we usually identify, the larger number of nonviolent sociopaths among us, people who often are not blatant lawbreakers, and against whom our formal legal system provides little defense.

Most of us would not imagine any correspondence between conceiving an ethnic genocide and, say, guiltlessly lying to one's boss about a coworker. But the psychological correspondence is not only there; it is chilling. Simple and profound, the link is the absence of the inner mechanism that beats up on us, emotionally speaking, when we make a choice we view as immoral, unethical, neglectful, or selfish.

Most of us feel mildly guilty if we eat the last piece of cake in the kitchen, let alone what we would feel if we intentionally and methodically set about to hurt another person.

Those who have no conscience at all are a group unto themselves, whether they be homicidal tyrants or merely ruthless social snipers.

The presence or absence of conscience is a deep human division, arguably more significant than intelligence, race, or even gender.

What differentiates a sociopath who lives off the labors of others from one who occasionally robs convenience stores, or from one who is a contemporary robber baron - or what makes the difference betwen an ordinary bully and a sociopathic murderer - is nothing more than social status, drive, intellect, blood lust, or simple opportunity.

What distinguishes all of these people from the rest of us is an utterly empty hole in the psyche, where there should be the most evolved of all humanizing functions. [Martha Stout, Ph.D., The Sociopath Next Door] (highly recommended)


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For those of you who are seeking understanding of psychopathy, Hervey Cleckley's book The Mask of Sanity, the absolutely essential study of the psychopath who is not necessarily of the criminal type. This book is no longer available. We have it scanned and our team of researchers spent two weeks going over the text carefully to eliminate text conversion errors. You may download the entire book FREE as a PDF from the link at left, top. (Read A Sample Chapter of The Mask of Sanity)

"Likeable," "Charming," "Intelligent," "Alert," "Impressive," "Confidence-inspiring," and "A great success with the ladies": These are the sorts of descriptions repeatedly used by Cleckley in his famous case-studies of psychopaths. They are also, of course, "irresponsible," "self-destructive," and the like. These descriptions highlight the great frustrations and puzzles that surround the study of psychopathy.

Psychopaths seem to have in abundance the very traits most desired by normal persons. The untroubled self-confidence of the psychopath seems almost like an impossible dream and is generally what "normal" people seek to acquire when they attend assertiveness training classes. In many instances, the magnetic attraction of the psychopath for members of the opposite sex seems almost supernatural.

Cleckley's seminal hypothesis concerning the psychopath is that he suffers from a very real mental illness indeed: a profound and incurable affective deficit. If he really feels anything at all, they are emotions of only the shallowest kind. He does bizarre and self-destructive things because consequences that would fill the ordinary man with shame, self-loathing, and embarrassment simply do not affect the psychopath at all. What to others would be a disaster is to him merely a fleeting inconvenience.

Cleckley also gives grounds for the view that psychopathy is quite common in the community at large. He has collected some cases of psychopaths who generally function normally in the community as businessmen, doctors, and even psychiatrists. Some researchers see criminal psychopathy - often referred to as anti-social personality disorder - as an extreme of a "normal" personality dimension (or dimensions). "



This part of the above I disagree with

"Cleckley's seminal hypothesis concerning the psychopath is that he suffers from a very real mental illness indeed: a profound and incurable affective deficit. "

I disagree that it is a mental illness, the label has been created out of fear. Fear of people who do not need anyones permission to act without conscience.

I have known many people like this. I envy them at the same time I loathe what they do. I envy their lack of caring what anyones thinks. Caring what people think is a burden not an asset.
 
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How for instance would the symptoms of such a psychosis exhibit on the part of a forum moderator; what would differentiate the conduct of a psychopath in such a context?

lol

(there really is no psychosis)

they would delete and ban without warning or consideration

to be honest I don't understand why moderators or forum owners care in the slightest what their forum users think of their moderation or rules etc, the forum creators are God, you don't like it..........cease to exist

no one gets physically hurt why care?
 
Has anyone else seen the series Dexter? Its about a serial killer who basically was trained by his dad, and only kills other bad guys.
Anyway the show does a great job of profiling someone who is completely detached from human emotion, conscious, or connection of any kind. I recommend it.
 
SheDevil: Maybe such psychopaths as are described in your message are not such a problem when society is more functional. Someone who is divorced from guilt isn't necessarily a criminal actor or destructive. Guilt itself leads people to actions that are destructive of themselves and others. Look at people who mortify their own flesh because of guilt that they didn't even earn. Look at people who see others as "immoral" and fit only for punishment and destruction. Maybe someone who is free of guilt doesn't have that problem. Maybe Cleckley isn't seeing psychopaths at all, but people who have disconnected a bit more than just guilt. Maybe these people are a natural reaction to the use of guilt to attempt to control behavior, without compassion to give people a reason to allow their behavior to be controlled.
 
Who said they 'need' validation and support, other than as a means to an end for what they want?
I think psychopaths value validation and support as a means in itself as much as anyone else. They might go about attaining self-validation via more superficial channels but the inherent need to adored/loved/wanted is as part of a psychopaths mental makeup as it is for anyone else.
Id argue that theyre simply much better at getting an immediate supply than most of us.
Also, i cant help but feel youre overly-impressed by these sorts of people, they do have desirable qualities yes, but their lack of genuine emotion also makes them very undesirable people to want to be at the same time.
I think there are numerous desirable qualities and undesirable qualities in every type of pathology that exists, i think its far better to inspiration from a wide variety of personality types than to focus on one personality type as a near-perfect entity.
 
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I think that the usual view of what constitutes a psychopath is a lot more projection and not so much fact.
 
Sam,

How will you live your life?

Several things to consider. But, before I get into all that, I'd like to first get this idea of 'being a child' out of the way:

you mean

Imagine what it is to be a child?

I'm sorry. But this is a ridiculous notion. Children are not necessarily instilled with an innate understanding of law and social decorum, but they do have one very important thing which sets them apart from a sociopath or a psychopath.

Empathy.

Small children (toddlers) can be quite mean to each other. Perhaps their behavior can be seen as sociopathic. Characterized as having no concern for the well-being of others. But, to view them in this light is erroneous as they do have empathy. It is only that they do not think through their actions. They are short-sighted. They make mistakes. Lots of mistakes. But, one has only to see the reaction of a small child who has hurt another to see their empathy shine through.
It is true that small children are selfish little pricks a lot of times. But, they have empathy. And this empathy grows stronger with each passing day.

They are not sociopaths.
Period.


Next:

You can do anything at all, and still your strange advantage over the majority of people, who are kept in line by their consciences will most likely remain undiscovered.

There is a fallacy in your setup here.
You have set up the scenario that you can do anything you want and most likely not get caught. However, this is not how it would work.
In order to remain undiscovered, one would have to learn to appear to be 'normal'. One would need to create a mask of social behavior which emulates those around him. Which would put them at ease. Behind which he can hide and remain 'undiscovered'.

This, by definition, limits the choices to what he can do. This, in a sense, is an artificial conscience constraining his actions. The difference being that this artificial conscience is imposed from without rather than maintained from within. And thus there will be more instances to elude the mandates of this artificial conscience than a 'real' conscience. (However, the nature of the conscience is highly debatable in how much of it is internal and how much external. Empathy is a root cause of the conscience, but the full contents of the modern conscience are often so complex that they go far beyond the demands of empathy into more social concerns which tend to drift towards the artifiicial.. So, perhaps we could speak of the conscience as a continuum... But, perhaps this is another topic altogether.)


Of course, there is no mandate upon the sociopathic individual to 'fit in' to society. No need for him to make a mask. He might well revel in his 'outsideness'. There are a number of options available to him in which he could revel in his sociopathic ways without ever submitting to society. Of course, even these would limit his choices. Most of these would place him on the fringes of society. Homeless. Drifting. Stinky and ugly. Not a lot of choice when you're a stinky hobo.

There is the danger of being institutionalized. Either in the mental health community or in the legal system. Both of which are prone to limit your choices. By definition.


So, the setup basically requires the type of sociopath who masquerades through life. Pretends to be normal while manipulating behind his mask. But, as free as he might think he is, he is still in a cage. And to throw off the shackles of the cage is to enter another cage. The cage of being shunned by society, of living on the fringes, or being imprisoned.

The choices begin to dwindle.
Free?
Hardly.



SheDevil,

When their reaction to you is of no interest, your disinterest in them will attract their interest in you.

A problem with your logic.
Their reaction to you is not 'of no interest'. To the contrary. You have a large interest in their reaction to you. You have a desire to manipulate them. This entails controlling their reaction to you. This entails behaving in a manner dictated by their personality. You have to play by their rules in order to control them.

You don't get in a car and drive it with the glove box. You have to obey the rules of the system.

Disinterest?
Heh.
Hardly.
It is certainly romantic to convince yourself that you are free though, isn't it? Feeds the ego?
What you don't realize is just how much of you is a direct product of them.
Sad, really.

You have them, but they do not have you.

No.
They have you more than you'll ever know. And they do it completely effortlessly. While you expend great amounts of energy in the process.

Easy to be a psychopath? Sure. If you find it easy to lie to yourself. Many do.

(there really is no psychosis)

Psychosis is a completely different topic.


Heliocentric,

I think psychopaths value validation and support as a means in itself as much as anyone else.

Absolutely.
They've just moved to a different rung of the ladder. Higher or lower? Doesn't matter. It's only an analogy.
They're just as caught up in the social as everyone else. Else they'd be off living on a mountain somewhere.
The human brain is programmed to find humans interesting. Every animal finds the most interest in its own species. The 'sociopath' is no exception.

Also, i cant help but feel youre overly-impressed by these sorts of people

She's probably a borderline personality disorder. Although she seems to hint that she's actually a psychopath...


Metakron,

I think that the usual view of what constitutes a psychopath is a lot more projection and not so much fact.

The label 'psychopath' is an abstract and artificial concept. It's defined by behavior and is very imprecise. The term 'fact' really doesn't describe anything about it. It's purely subjective, except from a behavioralist point of view.


Aside:

Everytime I see the thread title on the main page, I think: "If I was a psychopath... and you were a lady... would you marry me anyway... would you have my baby?"

Aside part two:

Anyone ever watch Minus Man? Interesting portrayal of a psychopath.
 
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Invert-Nexus

Too many wrongs in what you wrote for me to attempt to make it right

Interesting re the hint about me being psychopath though. Indeed one wonders if it could be hereditry.

Myself I am mostly overly emotional but divorce myself from emotion when the need requires? Indeed I can.
 
Great post invert_nexus, i think im in agreement with everything youve said so far pretty much.
Interesting that you should mention borderline personality disorder btw, i used to have a bpd girlfriend, the more i got to know her the more i struggled to define exactly what was wrong with her, sometimes id see sociopathic qualities in here, sometimes outright psychopathic.
Although ultimately i think while the labeling game is sometimes useful alot of the time i believe its more accurate to view people existing somewhere within a spectrum of extreme empathy or lack thereof as SheDevil allued to.

One thing i am absolutely sure of though is that you cant decide to be a psychopath/sociopath or someone with bpd/npd. These people have severe ingrained impairments in empathic reasoning, so their behaviour should not be viewed as somekind of personalised ideology as SheDevil (seems) to believe it can.
These people arnt living according to self-styled manifestos they simply dont know any other way of existing.
 
as easy as conluding someone with an alternate view to yourself has a personality disorder?

Heh.
I simply went with what you gave.
BPD's are attracted to psychopaths.
You have a romantic view of the sociopaths and psychopaths, so I posited a possibility, nothing more.
You made many statements hinting towards you being a psychopath yourself, but I did you a favor by limiting you to BPD instead.

Do not msitake persona for person

Yes. This is, of course, the more likely answer.
Just another person playing games on the internet.
Your real personality not enough for you?
 
Great post invert_nexus, i think im in agreement with everything youve said so far pretty much.
Interesting that you should mention borderline personality disorder btw, i used to have a bpd girlfriend, the more i got to know her the more i struggled to define exactly what was wrong with her, sometimes id see sociopathic qualities in here, sometimes outright psychopathic.
Although ultimately i think while the labeling game is sometimes useful alot of the time i believe its more accurate to view people existing somewhere within a spectrum of extreme empathy or lack thereof as SheDevil allued to.

One thing i am absolutely sure of though is that you cant decide to be a psychopath/sociopath or someone with bpd/npd. These people have severe ingrained impairments in empathic reasoning, so their behaviour should not be viewed as somekind of personalised ideology as SheDevil (seems) to believe it can.
These people arnt living according to self-styled manifestos they simply dont know any other way of existing.


No one can prove what a person really feels or thinks, so none of the psychologists research which concludes that a psychopath has NO conscience or regard for the feelings of others can be proved correct.

Explain in your words why you consider being self conscious, inhibited and shy to be character strengths. Note: all of these traits arise due to a pre-occupation with what other people think and an obsession with 'self'.

Also note: there is a difference between a trait that benefits a group and a trait that benefits the unit. They are not neccessarily the same.

And no, I am not a fan of murderers, but psychopaths and murderers are not in fact one and the same. We fear dangerous humans so we label them. We say they have no conscience, how can we prove it? The reality is simply those more dangerous members of our society do not acknowledge societies rules, they are not bound by them. You can look at any culture across the world and see that their rules are what keep them from committing diabolical acts and NOT a conscience.

Where is the conscience of the families who burn their Indian daughters for flirting with a man. Where are the soldiers consciences who kill upon command. Where is the governments conscience when deciding to bomb and kill hundereds and thousands of citizens.

Psychopaths are not mad they just do not respect the rules. Most of us do. Unless given permission to do otherwise as the history of the world shows.
 
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Why would a very intelligent person being questioned by an inferior person, indulge that inferior person with a deep insight into their psyche? What can this ant of a being do for a giant? What study can an ant make of a giant?
Do you humour them or do you take that time to amuse yourself at their expense.

The answer to that was already supplied by the previous two paragraphs:

No one can prove what a person really feels or thinks, so none of the psychologists research which concludes that a psychopath has NO conscience or regard for the feelings of others can be proved correct.

I can project any personality I desire, as I am sure can you, if you had a mind to.

How does the superior person know of such a superiority in the absense of the proof?

Perhaps the ant was just play acting to tease the intellect of the superior pretension.

No matter how superior the intelect the same mistake is common, to assume that all others are more or less the same as ourselves, and that is what tends to happen with the so called psycopath or sociopath, it being not so much a case of no rule or conscience but rather a different sort of rule that the subject mistakenly assumes to be easy enough to understand when that is far from the case.
 
The answer to that was already supplied by the previous two paragraphs:



How does the superior person know of such a superiority in the absense of the proof?

Perhaps the ant was just play acting to tease the intellect of the superior pretension.

No matter how superior the intelect the same mistake is common, to assume that all others are more or less the same as ourselves, and that is what tends to happen with the so called psycopath or sociopath, it being not so much a case of no rule or conscience but rather a different sort of rule that the subject mistakenly assumes to be easy enough to understand when that is far from the case.


If you can not tell when someone is less intelligent than you, perhaps you have yet to meet someone less intelligent than you.
 
If you can not tell when someone is less intelligent than you, perhaps you have yet to meet someone less intelligent than you.

Whosoever may of couse tell whatsoever they please, as could I.

Somebody more intelligent than yourself might rather have stuck to the point, the proof of it.
 
Heh.
I simply went with what you gave.
BPD's are attracted to psychopaths.
You have a romantic view of the sociopaths and psychopaths, so I posited a possibility, nothing more.
You made many statements hinting towards you being a psychopath yourself, but I did you a favor by limiting you to BPD instead.



Yes. This is, of course, the more likely answer.
Just another person playing games on the internet.
Your real personality not enough for you?

shedevil is very much a watered down version of me. The real me is barefoot.

Meanwhile,

please copy and post the statement where I display a romantic view of psychopaths .....the murdering kind..which is what I assume you refer to.

I am curious to see how this incorrect assumption can be demonstrated
 
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