Iraqi Shias protest against US troops

[GeoffP]

Sam, I think Michael's really got you here. Why not just stop and admit that yes the invasion of Persia was wrong and that yes occupation is wrong? You're tossing around bias and accusations of caste system to attempt to justify it somehow. But it can't be justified.

 

[aviate]

i am in the air force-hence AVIATE. we are still in iraq prodominately to have a close and secure watch on iraq and the other middle east nations. they all want us dead because we live larger ang grander than the "GOD" ever did. diplomacy is what is killing u.n. troops. if we were to blow all the m' f-ers away, we would no longer have to stay their baby-sitting. they will never be a productive society, they have nothing to offer, we are wasting some much money on them when our own colloge bound students cant pay tuition, but if we leave them alone they will only continue to attack us, until finally someone get's the balls to blow them allllll away. then the only problem left to handle is nuclear fallout. which to me, seems ten times easier to take care of.

 

[S.A.M.]

i am in the air force-hence AVIATE. we are still in iraq prodominately to have a close and secure watch on iraq and the other middle east nations. they all want us dead because we live larger ang grander than the "GOD" ever did. diplomacy is what is killing u.n. troops. if we were to blow all the m' f-ers away, we would no longer have to stay their baby-sitting. they will never be a productive society, they have nothing to offer, we are wasting some much money on them when our own colloge bound students cant pay tuition, but if we leave them alone they will only continue to attack us, until finally someone get's the balls to blow them allllll away. then the only problem left to handle is nuclear fallout. which to me, seems ten times easier to take care of.

Ah the absolute cream of American society, that thrives in democracy and freedom.
Iraq is soooo lucky to have close encounters with these kinds.

PS shit also floats.

 

[Michael]

Persia had conquered all Middle East except some part of present day Saudi Arabia

Sam, did you somehow miss the maps of the Persians empire that I posted?

No comment?

Again, what is the justification for the conquest of the Persian Empire? Are you now trying to justify War or Aggression because of a Persian Caste system?

Please don't tell me you are going to tell me the Persians were part of the Axis of Evil and the Arabs were just trying to liberate them from a tyrant who had WMD? Oh Goddess please no - not that!

Really Sam, what is your justification for the Muslim War of Aggression against the Persians? What justifies the wholesale slaughter of innocent civilians, the destruction of centuries old temples, the starvation, the rape, the pillage, the looting, the destruction, the POW-Slavery, the murder of Priests, the religious intolerance, what exactly?

Because I don't see it....

Probably because they were posted two pages back.

No, two pages back you left out:

Many Arab commanders destroyed Zoroastrian shrines and prohibited Zoroastrian worship. Many of the Zoroastrians were massacred and many fled to India to avoid persecution.


And that was from YOUR post mind you!

On Zoroastrian immigration

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qissa-i_Sanjan

No doubt some Zoroastrians left because of persecution, but many had already left. I also find it interesting that the Persians had a caste system similar to that of Hindus.

No the link you posted said they left AFTER the Arabs started murdering them and their families.

The first chapter of the Qissa begins with the fall of the Persian Empire, the dispersion of the people "of good faith", and the Zoroastrians' departure from Greater Khorasan. The refugees first made for a major port city near Bushire, where they stayed for 15 years. From there they sailed for Hindustan, the northern territories of the Indian subcontinent. They landed on the Island of Div (Diu), in southern Saurashtra, where they stayed for another 19 years. From Div, they sailed along the coast, weathered a severe storm at sea, and finally landed in Gujarat.

Also the link you posted, wiki linked: Persecution of Zoroastrians

Zoroastrians have faced much religious discrimination including forced conversions, harassments, as well as being identified as najis and impure to Muslims, making them unfit to live alongside Muslims therefore forcing them to evacuate from cities and face major sanctions in all senses. These persistent persecutions have overall resulted in the ruling class Zoroastrian community which had much influence over the pre-Islamic era Persian empires to become one of the smallest religious minorities in the world.
Persecution of Zoroastrians have mainly taken place in their own homeland Persia, modern day Iran.[1] The history of persecution of Zoroastrians started from the Arab conquest of Persia and fall of the Sassanid Empire.

Gee... what happened to your point that the Arabs lived in garrisons on the outside of the cities? Well well, we can see those spoils were taken soon enough. Yeah, much like the Americans (or Romans or Greeks or anyone) they initially built garrisons to scare the shit out of the populous and project their power and as soon as is possible move into the cities and rule the conquered populous.

You're prejudiced.

Me? I'm not the one that beleives that non-Muslim people are unclean!??!

WTFITAB?


I say I am against aggressive war. Whether that be Xian or Islamic or Hindu or Buddhist or Atheist or whatever… I am against aggressive war. Done. I can accept it took place. History is History. I simply think we should teach that much like Slavery, War of Aggression is always wrong. Yes, we Monkey's used to do it to take other monkey's banana's. But some of us are slowly trying to evolve our DNA and become human where we don't kill one another and steal their bananas!




Anyway, I posted the Maps of the Persian Empire. It is plan to see that the Arabs were, if anything, MORE free. They had MORE LAND than they had before. I fail to see how Muslims have a moral right to murder non-Muslims in Persia, Syria, Egypt, Spain, Iberia, Sicily, etc.. etc...etc..?


Where is exactly that you see the Muslims Wars of Aggression as morally just?

So?
Michael

 

[Michael]

Just out of curiosity, because I'm now beginning to wonder:

Is the American war in Iraq morally just?

 

[Michael]

...8...9...10

come out come out wherever you are....



What happened to this thread? I posted the Maps of the Persian Empire, the information on the allies of the Byzantine, the migration of the Zoroastrian post Muslim invasion... did I miss something?


Also, we are in agreement that the American lead war in Iraq was and is not just?


Michael

 

[Michael]

Well that ended that in the way it aways ends and why these debates are actually a better measure of the way we think than what we think.


On another note, the movie 300, I watched on IMAX Saturday. Was really crap. The movie looked nice but the actors were so wooden. And the Persians? WTF was going on there? Could it be any more white hat black hat?

I know it's a movie rendition of a comic but really - come on. If you're going to make it that fantastic then go all the way. Make the Spartans 10 feet tall and be done with it

 

[S.A.M.]

Well that ended that in the way it aways ends and why these debates are actually a better measure of the way we think than what we think.

I agree with your assessment.

I got fed up of pointing out the holes in your argument but since some people have accused me of intellectual dishonesty, I'll just say that I still stand by what I said. For the record, I'll also give the following rebuttals.

1. Arabs do not have a country, they are an ethnic group. Arabia on a map does not indicate a lack of Arab tribes in the rest of the ME. Also Arabs and Muslims are not synonymous.

2. Yemen was under the Persian Empire

3. The Rashidun Caliphate operated from Medina; under the Ummayyads, the capital of the Arab empire was moved to Damascus, in Arab lands; it was moved to Iran by a caliph whose mother was Persian.

4. There was a considerable population of Zoroastrians in Iran until the Turkic and Mongol invasions in the 9th century.

In 819, Samanids carved out an independent state in eastern Persia to become the first native rulers after the Arabic conquest. They made Samarqand, Bukhara and Herat their capitals and revived the Persian language and culture. Zoroastrian clerics complied and authored major religious texts, such as the Denkard, in Pahlavi. It was approximately during this age, when the poet Firdawsi finished the Shahnameh, an epic poem retelling the history of the Iranian kings. This epic was completed by 1008 AD.

In 913, western Persia was conquered by the Buwayhid, a Deylamite tribal confederation from the shores of the Caspian Sea. They made the city of Shiraz their capital. The Buwayhids destroyed Islam's former territorial unity. Rather than a province of a united Muslim empire, Iran became one nation in an increasingly diverse and cultured Islamic world.

 

[Michael]

Sam, my argument was aggressive war is never justifiable. If there is a hole in this argument I am blind and yet to see it?

Anyone other than Sam see this hole? Maybe I just need a different explanation?

Well? Anyone? Anyone else see where I have my head in my arse?

The reason I brought up Persia is I thought to show you that when people think war is justified they will find a way to justify it. A conclusion you come to over and over.

- You conclude it was good because "Muslim" people were "free".
- You side step the fact that innocent people were murdered, raped, burned, starved, committed suicide, were humiliated, etc.... simple folk were ruined.
- You either didn't know or don't care that the invasion of Persia led to the collapse of the Chinese civilization.
- You neglect to mention also the complete collapse of the civilized states along the Mediterraneans due to their being over run by Arab Muslims. It's a fact that States once famous for Artisans and Poets turned to subsistence farming.
- The rape, murder, persecution and intimidation of the Zoroastrians never occurred in your synopsis of Hstory.
- You sum up my argument against War of Aggression as airy fairy head in the clouds idealist pie in the sky crap best left to the academia to ponder while the people on the ground deal with the "real" world ...

Yet, I'm 100% sure if we were to discuss the Age of Discovery you'd agree that War of Aggression is wrong.

I'm 100% sure if we were to discuss the Mongolian invasions you'd agree that War of Aggression is wrong.


Ever wonder why that is?

Michael


Yes and Americans are fighting for Iraqis freedoms because they love the Iraqis so much they just want them to breath the same sweet free air as we Americans breath.

Silly huh?