Is consciousness to be found in quantum processes in microtubules?

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TheVat said:
One, the universe has physical properties, by definition. Not mathematical properties.
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How do you answer the self-organization of recurring patterns without a mathematixcal function?
Math is a system of symbols used by some brains to describe regular patterns in the universe and in the brain's perceptions and manipulations of sensory input. Tegmark is a Platonist who likes to see the universe as somehow "made of math," which for many of us is confusing the map with the territory.
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I beg to differ with your conclusion.
The fact that humans are able to measure, quantify, codify, and symbolize natural processes is proof of an underlying mathematical ordering function to begin with.

This may seem unrelated to the discussion, but this comedian makes an astute observation that is undeniably true.
Take a few minutes and be entertained as well as informed.....:cool:

Go to; 3:40 on the video.

Maths remain the same over time.
 
Pinball1970 said:
There is a difference between Quantum theory and Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics.
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The results are the same!
Aren't all quantum theories Interpretations of observed and modeled phenomena?
The difference is in the interpretation of particle physics. Dualism or Mind?

Dualism and Mind
Dualists in the philosophy of mind emphasize the radical difference between mind and matter. They all deny that the mind is the same as the brain, and some deny that the mind is wholly a product of the brain.
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This article explores the various ways that dualists attempt to explain this radical difference between the mental and the physical world. A wide range of arguments for and against the various dualistic options are discussed.
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Problems of Interaction. The conservation of energy argument points to a more general complaint often made against dualism: that interaction between mental and physical substances would involve a causal impossibility.
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https://iep.utm.edu/dualism-and-mind/#
 
Write4U said:
The results are the same!
Aren't all quantum theories Interpretations of observed and modeled phenomena?
The difference is in the interpretation of particle physics. Dualism or Mind
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You are getting confused, there is QT AND interpretation of QT.
I am not particularly interested in interpretation, last poll Copenhagen was still on top.
 
Write4U said:
The results are the same!
Aren't all quantum theories Interpretations of observed and modeled phenomena?
The difference is in the interpretation of particle physics. Dualism or Mind
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Best find out what QT is first, plenty of work to be done there.
I know some basics, some formalism of the maths, that's it.
 
Pinball1970 said:
I know what it is! I just quoted it!
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This is what you quoted: "I am not particularly interested in interpretation, last poll Copenhagen was still on top"
To me this sounds as if you are exempting Copenhagen from being an ''interpretation".
 
Write4U said:
The results are the same!
Aren't all quantum theories Interpretations of observed and modeled phenomena?
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Probably best to be precise: there is the mathematical theory of quantum mechanics (or QM for short). This is the maths, at least as currently understood. It is a fundamental theory of physics. Then you have the interpretation of quantum mechanics, which is an effort to explain how the mathematical theory corresponds to the reality that we experience.
An interpretation is not, per se, a scientific theory. The mathematical theory (QM) is testable, and has been repeatedly tested. But the interpretations can not be. This is because all interpretations have the same maths behind it, have the same experience to compare it against. You can't test one interpretation against another, at least not empirically. It is therefore wrong to call an interpretation a theory.

So, to be clear, as I understand it there is the "theory", which we refer to as QM. But there are a number of interpretations of QM, such as Copenhagen, many-worlds, de Broglie-Bohm etc.

Hope that helps.
 
Write4U said:
But then what does QT stand for?

What does confuse me is entanglement, a two-way self-reference that seems to defy time and space.
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Sarkus has summed it up well.

Quantum theory came about to explain phenomena that classical physics could, the first being the UV catastrophe which solved by Max Planck.

He treated energy like steps, discrete packets called quanta rather than a continuous spectrum.


Wiki has a good article on it.


The Einstein ion 1905 (photo electric effect) then work on the atom Rutherford Bohr then all the greats of the 1920s.


Quantum Theory ( QT) describes how the micro universe behaves and Quantum mechanics lectures in University cover the mathematical structure.


It works but it is strange and impacted on the view of “reality” in a number of ways.


What reality actually is, what is really going is where “Interpretation of Quantum theory” comes in and that has not been resolved.


Some physicists are happy with Copenhagen (42% one poll) others Like Sean Carroll from memory prefer “Many worlds.”


I do not care particularly because my understanding of the formalism is not sufficient to explore those options.


The bottom line however is that talking about QT without mathematics is like discussing music without actually playing music, looking at chords, scales, modes, keys- pretty empty.


The forum I am on rarely discusses the interpretation, when it happens though it is the same discussion essentially that leads nowhere.


Far more interesting things going on like, Muon G2 measurements and MOND/CDM.
 
Write4U said:
But then what does QT stand for?

What does confuse me is entanglement, a two-way self-reference that seems to defy time and space.
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My references will take a day or two to read but understand you will get absolutely nothing of the underlying structure, formalism or maths which is what matters.

My music analogy? Can I describe music to you in words? No
 
Pinball1970 said:
My references will take a day or two to read but understand you will get absolutely nothing of the underlying structure, formalism or maths which is what matters.
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Then why is that useful to me?

I support the proposition that the Universe is a mathematically ordered physical construct. Recurring patterns.
My music analogy? Can I describe music to you in words? No
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No need, I am an ex-musician (7 years on the road as bassplayer with the International IV ).
I like Jazz, improvisations on a theme.

A wonderful conscious experience in the art of romantic music may be enjoyed.
 
Sarkus said:
Quantum Theory, I guess. Otherwise known as Quantum Mechanics. I believe they are synonymous.
Welcome to the world of QM.
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This is Penrose's QM world.

Roger Penrose On Why Consciousness Does Not Compute
The emperor of physics defends his controversial theory of mind.
BY STEVE PAULSON, April 27, 2017

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“Objective Reduction” refers to Penrose’s ideas about quantum gravity—how superposition applies to different spacetime geometries—which he regards as a still-undiscovered theory in physics. All of this is an impossibly ambitious theory that draws on Penrose’s thinking about the deep structure of the universe, from quantum mechanics to relativity. As Smolin has said, “All Roger’s thoughts are connected … twistor theory, his philosophical thinking, his ideas about quantum mechanics, his ideas about the brain and the mind.”
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https://nautil.us/roger-penrose-on-why-consciousness-does-not-compute-236591/#

According to Penrose QM and Relativity are connected! Hence my selection of tangently related "hard facts"

This verbatim quote from the video below; "This is deep in physics. The collapse of the wave function, whatever it's got to be, it's got to be consistent with relativity theory, the fact that I think that the wave function is a gravitational effect.
This means it's to do with General Relativity and therefore has to be consistent with Special Relativity.
General Relativity is Special Relativity, but with a little bend" (RP)
youtube.com/watch?v=itLIM38k2r0

Regardless of human knowledge of consciousness, one fact remains true, consciousness exists in many known biological organisms and must therefore be an as-yet-undiscovered or undefined property of biophysics, an emergent product (quality) of the sum of its parts.

Another dimension?
 
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Write4U said:
Then why is that useful to me?

I support the proposition that the Universe is a mathematically ordered physical construct. Recurring patterns.
No need, I am an ex-musician (7 years on the road as bassplayer with the International IV ).
I like Jazz, improvisations on a theme.

A wonderful conscious experience in the art of romantic music may be enjoyed.
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It will give you some back ground on QT
 
An update on the apparent MT processing of electrical oscillations in the neural system.
Collective behavior of oscillating electric dipoles
Abstract
We investigate the dynamics of a population of identical biomolecules mimicked as electric dipoles with random orientations and positions in space and oscillating with their intrinsic frequencies. The biomolecules, beyond being coupled among themselves via the dipolar interaction, are also driven by a common external energy supply.
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A collective mode emerges by decreasing the average distance among the molecules as testified by the emergence of a clear peak in the power spectrum of the total dipole moment. This is due to a coherent vibration of the most part of the molecules at a frequency definitely larger than their own frequencies corresponding to a partial cluster synchronization of the biomolecules.
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These results can be verified experimentally via spectroscopic investigations of the strength of the intermolecular electrodynamic interactions, thus being able to test the possible biological relevance of the observed macroscopic mode.
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Hooks and Comets: The Story of Microtubule Polarity Orientation in the Neuron
Microtubules are intrinsically polar cytoskeletal filaments (Alberts, 2008). They consist of a “plus end” favored for assembly/disassembly and a “minus end” which is less favored for these dynamics. The structural polarity of the microtubule results from the fact that the tubulin subunits that comprise the microtubule are heterodimers of alpha and beta tubulin.
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The polarity of the microtubule exists not only at the two ends of the filament, but all along the length of its lattice. This is critical for the movement along the microtubule of molecular motor proteins, which are enzymes that walk specifically toward either the plus end or the minus end of the microtubule.
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Hooks and Comets: The Story of Microtubule Polarity ... - NCBI
more.... https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-33990-y
 
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