Is faith a reliable path to knowledge?

spidergoat said:
Amazingly, a single person can hold both views over the course of their lifetime, so we already know you are most likely delusional when you claim special theist knowledge. At least you can't argue your case if held to a rational standard.
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It's a good thing I don't claim "special theist knowledge" then. Isn't it?

Jan.
 
Jan Ardena said:
It's a good thing I don't claim "special theist knowledge" then. Isn't it?
Jan.
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No, you claim special "spiritual" knowledge, but refuse to define it except in an obtuse way, which does not inform..

If you had watched the whole Ted Talks presentation, you would have learned that only when our hallucinatory perception of our observations agree, we can call it reality, either physically material or metaphysically extant.

Agreement can only be achieved when out hallucinatory experience is described in detail.

If my hallucinatory experience of my observation describes a wooden table with four legs, and you experience that same hallucinatory observational experience, we can agree that we are both looking at a table.

If you like we can compare the term "hallucination" with "internal mental hologram". Perhaps that will ease your suspicion that the term hallucination was used in a derogatory manner.
hallucination is a distorted or false sensory deficit that may emerge to be truthful insights. These insights are sensory thoughts produced by a person’s mind to a certain extent than using any external object to serve as stimuli.

Delusions are false beliefs derived from an erroneous supposition about exterior reality. These suppositions are decisively maintained in spite of hearing everbody’s beliefs and an obvious evidence of the complete contrary of what he thinks is real. These beliefs are not commonly accepted by other people especially if it is against their culture and norms.
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Read more: Difference Between Delusion and Hallucination | Difference Between http://www.differencebetween.net/science/health/difference-between-delusion-and-hallucination/#ixzz4nPPx9oW5

As our mental images are approximations of what we see, due to our sensory limitations, they may be fairly called hallucinations. When our hallucinations agree we call it reality.
 
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Write4U said:
No, you claim special "spiritual" knowledge, but refuse to define it except in an obtuse way, which does not inform..

If you had watched the whole Ted Talks presentation, you would have learned that only when our hallucinatory perception of our observations agree, we can call it reality, either physically material or metaphysically extant.

Agreement can only be achieved when out hallucinatory experience is described in detail.

If my hallucinatory experience of my observation describes a wooden table with four legs, and you experience that same hallucinatory observational experience, we can agree that we are both looking at a table.

If you like we can compare the term "hallucination" with "internal mental hologram". Perhaps that will ease your suspicion that the term hallucination was used in a derogatory manner.

Read more: Difference Between Delusion and Hallucination | Difference Between http://www.differencebetween.net/science/health/difference-between-delusion-and-hallucination/#ixzz4nPPx9oW5

As our mental images are approximations of what we see, due to our sensory limitations, they may be fairly called hallucinations. When our hallucinations agree we call it reality.
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Please explain what any of this has to do with our discussion?

Jan.
 
Jan Ardena said:
Please explain what any of this has to do with our discussion?
Jan.
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Please explain what you are discussing. I am just probing your mind to find common ground (empathic perspective), but so far you have not provided anything I can recognize or visualize (hallucinate).

And before you come up with "you are incapable of understanding because you are an atheist", let me state that I do believe in an a priori metaphysical dimension, Bohm's Implicate Order, before it becomes expressed (manifest) in our reality.

The process of thinking is a physical function of millions of neurons in the brain, but I am quite capable of thinking in abstract terms. In fact the mind (the product of thinking) itself is an abstraction (an internal hallucination/ hologram/imagining/ empathic response/intuition).

So if any of this comes anywhere near your spiritual perception, let's explore that. If it is difficult to describe, and I know it really is, provide me with a link to a site which you believe approximates your personal spiritual experience.

If you cannot, then how can you expect anyone to conceptualize what you are talking about?
 
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Write4U said:
Please explain what you are discussing.
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I was simply responding to SP. It needs no explanation.

Post 582...

Jan Ardena said:
A religious person has confidence and trust in...

Their ability to make decisions, based on what they know.
Their teacher or guru.
The source of their religion.

What you are suggesting is that religious people (as a general rule), blindly accept (religious faith), the appeal, of religious principles.
Outside of yourself accepting that God does not exist, therefore belief in Him is an illusion, a position you yourself cannot verify, what social, logical, or scientific reason can you offer, as justification for your perspective?

jan.
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Write4U said:
And before you come up with "you are incapable of understanding because you are an atheist", let me state that I do believe in an a priori metaphysical dimension, Bohm's Implicate Order, before it becomes expressed (manifest) in our reality.
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I would never say you are incapable, just currently incapable. As long as you are atheist

Write4U said:
So if any of this comes anywhere near your spiritual perception, let's explore that. If it is difficult to describe, and I know it really is, provide me with a link to a site which you believe approximates your personal spiritual experience.
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I'm not interested in exploring spiritual perceptions. I don't even know what that is.
What is it?

Write4U said:
If you cannot, then how can you expect anyone to conceptualize what you are talking about?
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You can conceptualise post 582. Yes?
There's no need to go pass that.

Jan.
 
From #582,
Jan Ardena said:
A religious person has confidence and trust in...

Their ability to make decisions, based on what they know.
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What they know about what?
Their teacher or guru.
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What does he know?
The source of their religion.
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Which is?

Why do you leave me guessing at the religion which allows your guru or teacher to pass on the knowledge gained from that religion for you to make decisions based on that knowledge and that allows you to defend it so vigorously?

Are you allowed to name the religion. If you do, I promise to study it carefully to see if I can gain knowledge from it.
I have already said that I have gained knowledge from several religions, even as I may reject the religion itself.
I have even quoted sins and virtues from the Abrahamic bible which I can wholeheartedly accept.

Seven sins

Lust – to have an intense desire or need: “But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart”

Gluttony – excess in eating and drinking: “for drunkards and gluttons become poor, and drowsiness clothes them in rags”

Greed - excessive or reprehensible acquisitiveness: “Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more”

Laziness – disinclined to activity or exertion: not energetic or vigorous: “The way of the sluggard is blocked with thorns, but the path of the upright is a highway”

Wrath – strong vengeful anger or indignation: “A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger”

Envy – painful or resentful awareness of an advantage enjoyed by another joined with a desire to possess the same advantage: “Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind.

Pride - quality or state of being proud – inordinate self esteem: “Pride goes before destruction, a haughty spirit before a fall”


Seven Virtues
  1. Faith, is belief in the right things (including the virtues!).
  2. Hope, is taking a positive future view, that good will prevail.
  3. Charity, is concern for, and active helping of, others.
  4. Fortitude, is never giving up.
  5. Justice, is being fair and equitable with others.
  6. Prudence, is care of and moderation with money.
  7. Temperance, is moderation of needed things and abstinence from things which are not needed.
But note, these are secular moral philosophies, which can be defended on purely logical grounds, even by atheists. I do not need a teacher or guru , but just good parents to specifically teach me those fundamental moral tenets. The world would indeed be a better place if those moral messages were practiced by everybody.

I believe you will find many here who agree with these secular Humanistic tenets.

Thus the question remains if one needs to have faith or believe in a deity or a religion to practice these logically defensible common sense philosophies. The recognition that these words of wisdom address the human strengths and weaknesses, is sufficient knowledge, IMO.

None of them seem to require a specific Religion or Deity for them to valid . In fact none of them mention a deity. Just because those sins and virtues are specifically described in Abrahamic scripture, does not necessarily mean that an atheist cannot understand or practice them in their everyday lives.

If you tell me you use these moral commands in your life, I'll say, "good for you!"
If I tell you I use these moral commands in my life, will you say the same?
 
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Write4U said:
Why do you leave me guessing at the religion which allows your guru or teacher to pass on the knowledge gained from that religion for you to make decisions based on that knowledge and that allows you to defend it so vigorously?
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If you want to talk about religion, then start a new thread, and if it's substantial, I will discuss it with you. But right now I'm discussing what is faith.

Write4U said:
Are you allowed to name the religion. If you do, I promise to study it carefully to see if I can gain knowledge from it.
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We're not talking about religion. But be my guess and study some religions, it might help you to understand religion.

Write4U said:
I have already said that I have gained knowledge from several religions, even as I may reject the religion itself.
I have even quoted sins and virtues from the Abrahamic bible which I can wholeheartedly accept.
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Your point being...

Write4U said:
But note, these are secular moral philosophies, which can be defended on purely logical grounds, even by atheists. I do not need a teacher or guru , but just good parents to specifically teach me those fundamental moral tenets. The world would indeed be a better place if those moral messages were practiced by everybody.
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That's what you've decided. Congratulations!
But don't be fooled into thinking that what you decide, is what everyone should decide.

Write4U said:
I believe you will find many here who agree with these secular Humanistic tenets.
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That's very reassuring.

Write4U said:
None of them seem to require a specific Religion or Deity for them to valid . In fact none of them mention a deity. Just because those sins and virtues are specifically described in Abrahamic scripture, does not necessarily mean that an atheist cannot understand or practice them in their everyday lives.
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So what's your point?

Write4U said:
If you tell me you use these moral commands in your life, I'll say, "good for you!"
If I tell you I use these moral commands in my life, will you say the same?
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I wouldn't say anything, as I consider them normal.

jan.
 
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