Is it wrong to have sex for fun, knowing it might possibly lead to an abortion?

[SetiAlpha6]

What evidence do you have?

I find a rational worldview to be not only superior to one based on faith, but necessary to survival. I don't know where you get the despair from it.

The Shroud of Turin, is clear evidence.

We disagree, Atheism is hopelessness and despair to me, and not to you. So be it.

Knowing how I feel about it, why would you try to bring me into your world view of hopelessness and despair, from my perspective?

 

[Beer w/Straw]

You should never assume it is real... please don’t do that! I know you would not do that.

There is rational, scientific evidence, for the resurrection of Jesus embedded in the Shroud.

But it requires careful study and critical examination. It is one of the most scientifically scrutinized artifacts of all time, and it has survived all of it.

It provides very convincing evidence that Jesus rose from the dead.

Study it for yourself or don’t, your choice.

Dammit that Jeff Bozo beat me to it: https://www.amazon.ca/s?k=the+shrou...217520&tag=googcana-20&ref=pd_sl_23g5b0t2kx_b

 

[spidergoat]

The rhetorical method of granting some of your assumptions is a strong one. It saves time. How does a bloody sheet prove that Jesus rose from the dead?

 

[SetiAlpha6]

Dammit that Jeff Bozo beat me to it: https://www.amazon.ca/s?k=the shroud of turin&hvadid=232501409492&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=9001032&hvnetw=g&hvpos=1t1&hvqmt=b&hvrand=15656465236989924238&hvtargid=kwd-296027217520&tag=googcana-20&ref=pd_sl_23g5b0t2kx_b

There are a number of videos on YouTube availabile for your review, if you wish to do a little research.

And also under the name Barry Schwartz or sometimes Schwortz? He even did a Ted Talk if I remember right.

Sort it all out yourself. Decide for yourself!

 

[SetiAlpha6]

The rhetorical method of granting some of your assumptions is a strong one. It saves time. How does a bloody sheet prove that Jesus rose from the dead?

Study it critically for yourself and decide for yourself if you wish to, or don’t. That is all I can offer.

As you know, my opinion is only my opinion. It would never help you decide.

 

[Beer w/Straw]

Science (embryology) teaches that a new human life begins at conception. So an abortion clearly kills a new male or female human life. This is self evident. I call it a child, you may call he or she anything you want to. It is obviously a separate human life from the mother.

How is it possible for people to ever think it is OK to kill there own child? I feel like it would take a depraved, self deceived mind to even conceive of such a thing.

Anyway, a zygote then goes to heaven, in your opinion, if it is your opinion heaven exists.

Correct?

 

[sculptor]

"morality" is a slippery and or situational beasty.

 

[Michael 345]

The Shroud of Turin is pretty good evidence for the resurrection, and so is pretty good evidence for hope.

I take back you can't be stupid

 

[billvon]

The modern "pro-choice" movement is desperate to protect the image of abortion as positive and pro-woman.

Nope. I am pro-choice. I do not think abortion is positive, nor is it pro-woman.

Ironically, their biggest threat is from those they claim to champion: women.

Per Pew, 60% of woman think abortion should be legal in most or all cases. So the biggest threats to the anti-abortionists are women.

Women are coming forward in greater numbers speaking out about how abortion was not an act of empowerment but the result of abandonment, betrayal, and desperation, and how it has negatively affected their lives.

Yes, it is a very negative thing for some women. Some people make bad choices.

The website

www.afterabortion.com established by a woman who had 5 abortions provides a place for women to help each other cope with the aftermath of their abortions. There are nearly 2.5 million posts.

Yep. And there are even more people who have drinking problems. We still allow people to make the decision to drink on their own.

They tell stories of how they were coerced into aborting their children by boyfriends, husbands, friends, and family. They describe how abortion was far from being a choice.

Then those people should be told it IS a choice.

No women should have to abort her child to participate fully in society. If a pregnant woman or mother can't participate in society, the true feminist response is that something is wrong with society.

Agreed 100%. And no woman should be forced by a government bureaucrat to carry her child to term if she doesn't want to. And no woman should be attacked, shamed and mocked by sanctimonious pro-lifers for making that choice.

Meanwhile you never answered my question.

A child needs a kidney or a liver lobe. You are the only tissue match. The procedure is 98% safe. Should the government force you to donate? If not, how will you live with the guilt and shame of killing a child just because you didn't want to be inconvenienced?

 

[billvon]

The Shroud of Turin, is clear evidence.

A local artist confessed to forging the Shroud of Turin in 1390. Radiocarbon dating has put the date for the shroud's fabric between 1260 and 1390. So unless Jesus died around 1250, it's not the burial shroud of Christ.

 

[Michael 345]

Right, hell is not in your world view and neither is God, so of course it would be nuts for you to fear either of them.

That is not what I am talking about.

Seems like we have a Jan +

Time to up my Iggy count

 

[spidergoat]

Study it critically for yourself and decide for yourself if you wish to, or don’t. That is all I can offer.

I'm trying to have a sincere and respectful discussion on the evidence you said was there. Why won't you defend it? Lots of people die and leave bloody clothing. How does this show Jesus' resurrection?

 

[spidergoat]

A local artist confessed to forging the Shroud of Turin in 1390. Radiocarbon dating has put the date for the shroud's fabric between 1260 and 1390. So unless Jesus died around 1250, it's not the burial shroud of Christ.

That doesn't even matter. How does it prove a resurrection?

 

[billvon]

That doesn't even matter. How does it prove a resurrection?

?? It doesn't. Indeed, it looks like it didn't even exist until about 1200 years after he died.

 

[SetiAlpha6]

That doesn't even matter. How does it prove a resurrection?

The image on the cloth, is a negative, but is not a photographic negative. It has 3d information imbedded in the image itself. It is also not a painted image either.

How then was it forged?

There were other copies made of it that were indeed paintings. But the original was not.

Correct, the dating of the cloth was a problem for a while but has been explained, according to the main scientist involved with that aspect of it.

Look at the data from the studies that were done.

Weigh both sides, and use your own brain, you are clearly a brilliant person. Decide for yourself.

Check out videos of lectures given by Barry Swartz on YouTube, if you really want to evaluate it carefully.

Barry is the expert on it because he was there, at the time it was being studied. I was not.

Trying to help as much as I can, but obviously you should not rely on me.

 

[DaveC426913]

This is so funny coming from you, considering that sci forums is so full of sociopathic people. This is one of the reasons why I don't come here anymore.

Just fuck you.

I don't see anything that BwS said that could have warranted this kind of response (though, for all I know, you guys might have a history).
Since, from what I've seen, neither of you are inherently mean or violent, it makes me wonder if at least one of you misinterpreted the other's words.
Any chance?

 

[billvon]

The image on the cloth, is a negative, but is not a photograph. It also has 3d information imbedded in the image itself. It is also not a painted image either. How then was it forged?

It's not a forgery, since there was no claim of an original before the artist created it. Nor was it mentioned by any account of Christ's death before 1300 or so. The artist likely painted it with dissolved iron oxide, a common pigment used around 1300.

 

[DaveC426913]

Weigh both sides, and use your own brain,... Decide for yourself.

At the risk of speaking for him, I'm gonna say he has, he is and he did.

As did many others.

It's a curiosity, but it's not evidence of any resurrection. That is, it's not evidence in a critical analysis - it would certainly be tempting if one started with the premise that the resurrection happened and went looking for things that could conceivably corroborate it, no matter how remote.

 

[Neddy Bate]

I am sorry but I see this as a hypothetical problem that is not equivalent to the abortion problem. It may work for you but it really does not equate for me.

I would and could give my life for another if the circumstances were appropriate, just as I assume, you would.

Okay, so we can agree that if the circumstances were not appropriate, then you and I probably wouldn't risk/give our lives for another. There are circumstances to be considered, after all.

 

[billvon]

By the way, why would any loving atheist ever want to sell his or her’s hopeless and despairing world view to anyone else?

Because many atheist's worldviews are hopeful and positive, even if you don't understand them.