A bloody good point. Don't religions claim that there specific God is infinitely good?
Then how could an infinitely good person, subject someone who has done evil for a small finite time, to an infinite length of torture and punishment.
Is the need of salvation an evil lie from religions?
- Thread starter Greatest I am
- Start date
Then how could an infinitely good person, subject someone who has done evil for a small finite time, to an infinite length of torture and punishment.
That's mostly just a Christianity, Islam, and Zoroastrianism thing. To an extent Zoroastrianism is a bit "off the hook" as it contends that while the god they worship is good, there is an equally-powerful second god that causes all the dickery in the world.
Even Judaism doesn't necessarily assert that the Hebrew God is all-loving or all-good, only that he is all-just. Which, for an ethnic religion, usually winds up meaning "protects us, and not those other guys, provided that we're following the rules". And besides, Judaism typically does not believe in a "hell" type of afterlife, so the point about a god throwing unbelievers to eternal torment is moot. The idea usually is that once you die, you got to a dreary but uneventful afterlife, no matter who you are or what you did.
And all of the polytheistic, indigenous, or ethnic religious traditions, and their modern revivals, are incredibly varied. It's almost impossible to make a blanket statement on those, though typically they just see their gods as part of the natural world, with not moral hangups.
Edont Knoff
Registered Senior Member
I can only answer this from a personal point of view. I became agnostic, maybe even atheist as I grew older. Since I don't believe in the existance of higher beings, and since I don't believe in an afterlife of any sort, there is no need for salvation anymore.
It feels better this way (for me).
I can't judge if the need for salvation it is a lie. Maybe there actually are gods and I'm wrong with my findings that there are no gods and no afterlife. In that case I might be horribly screwed some day. But if I'm right, and there are no gods, or no gods that actually care about us, then it's really just an evil lie to press people into some behavior to the liking of the ones in power of those religions.
Edont Knoff
Registered Senior Member
Not really. In the bible you can find some text that supports the notion that god wants humans to be unfree and dependant (on him and his rules) while the devil said, humans can live on the themselves and be free. I came across this in a discussion with Christians, as I told them, I see no godly work in our world. They replied that in fact, god is not doing anything these days, because of a bet with the devil - humans are on trial these days. They are free and god hopes that we show our inability to lead a good life, while the devil hopes that we show we can do well on our own. Seeing all the wars and conflicts in the world, it made me feel odd, I really wish we would show maturity (the maturity that the devil claimed that we have), while we seem to show all the immaturity that god claimed to rectify his ruling. A thing I dislike, I'd rather like to be free.
Furthermore, this made me wonder why the devil is depicted as the evil one - he actually supports the idea of self-dependant and free human beings. The pain that is in the world, is not devil-made, but human-made, even if was the devil who tricked god into giving us temporary freedom in our actions. In a way this reminded me of Prometheus, the titan who gave the fire to the man, and who was punished by the gods for doing so. The bringers of freedom and power to man strangely are hated by the god(s) and put into the role of evildoers.
Strange stories. Luckily I neither believe in gods nor devils, so the only wish that remains is, that humankind actually will start to show signs of maturity, and end wars and fights, for a better and more human-worthy style of living together. We can do it. We just need more who actually want to do so.
This is also why I like buddhism - buddha was a man, no god and no prophet. It is a religion without a god, and still it tries to solve exactly the problem that I've sketched - the question how to lead a good life, to give answers on how to treat fellow man, how to treat animals, plants and our environment, for biggest shared benefit, and eventually, happiness.
Our world is made in a way that one cannot be truly good. There are dilemmas which are unsolveable, in some cases we can only chose between bad and bad. But we should strive to make such happen less frequently, and when we see the right thing, or know the right thing, actually do it.
A huge hurdle to achieve this dream is nothing new. Religion, as it is now, must end for peace. A huge topic that people are passionate about enough to kill is religious ideas, or the concept of something bigger than any person as it pertains to a way to live. It's ironic because big religious groups say the way to peace is through adopting solely its god and its dogma, and that all others should be, in a word, destroyed in peoples' minds.
Religion needs to become more spiritual, in the sense of it being a principle way to live for something bigger than oneself. An ideal that transcends religious groups. It's just not going to happen without destroying all the religious zealots, but that is immoral in most paradigms. We need a war to end all wars. I just hope at the end of that war, religion (as it is now) doesn't exist. Odds are not good for atheists.
On the topic: yes and no.
No, we are all sinners and do need to atone for our actions. Yes, "salvation" is too highly priced. Salvation, by big religion terms, costs some freedom (not the freedom to sin, but the freedom to believe).
It's not evil because we all need to face the consequences of our actions, but it is evil because you are not free to believe what you will to achieve it.
No, we are all sinners and do need to atone for our actions. Yes, "salvation" is too highly priced. Salvation, by big religion terms, costs some freedom (not the freedom to sin, but the freedom to believe).
It's not evil because we all need to face the consequences of our actions, but it is evil because you are not free to believe what you will to achieve it.
Whether god is good or evil is dependent on what you identify as god.
Some people think god is a literal entity out there with possibly zero relation to us. In that case, possibly not evil.
Some people think god created all there is here as in 'nature' and on that note, if you include all then technically god is evil. This is, ironicly, the most common belief and among religions but with the illogical precept god is all good. Comclusion must be most people are insane, hypocrites or stupid.
Some people think god is 'love' or just identifying that positivity to attribute god is all good but how they apply it usually is the same result as the above. He loves everyone no matter what etc and the same shit continues.
But the best way to narrow down what god is as in what is worthy to be revered, held in highest regard, focal point or self-actualization goal would probably be a combination of ethics and love. Love without ethics can lead to or even validate corruption or anything goes.
But ethics combined with love/goodwill is a well-rounded and healthy life spiritual goal. I would think if there is a god, it should be that and even if god werent that, it doesnt matter still because its the best/worthy to know or become.
When we refer to religion, the reality is manifested through us so its our choice in what we think god should be or is. Unless, you are just debating just whether god exists as a literal being.
Some people think god is a literal entity out there with possibly zero relation to us. In that case, possibly not evil.
Some people think god created all there is here as in 'nature' and on that note, if you include all then technically god is evil. This is, ironicly, the most common belief and among religions but with the illogical precept god is all good. Comclusion must be most people are insane, hypocrites or stupid.
Some people think god is 'love' or just identifying that positivity to attribute god is all good but how they apply it usually is the same result as the above. He loves everyone no matter what etc and the same shit continues.
But the best way to narrow down what god is as in what is worthy to be revered, held in highest regard, focal point or self-actualization goal would probably be a combination of ethics and love. Love without ethics can lead to or even validate corruption or anything goes.
But ethics combined with love/goodwill is a well-rounded and healthy life spiritual goal. I would think if there is a god, it should be that and even if god werent that, it doesnt matter still because its the best/worthy to know or become.
When we refer to religion, the reality is manifested through us so its our choice in what we think god should be or is. Unless, you are just debating just whether god exists as a literal being.
Hermann
Registered Senior Member
Yes! There is no personal god who is watching and judging us. All what is has evolved by universal laws. I believe in afterlife and in an endless development of individual souls. The speed of development will depend on our actions. We are responsible for our actions just to ourselves. If we have done something wrong, we can and should forgive ourselves and not feeling guilty for ever. Guilt is a punishment to ourselves and will slow down our development.
———
My world view is explained at: http://rational-weltanschauung.blogspot.com.au/
Greatest I am
Valued Senior Member
Apologies to all for being late.
What do you base your view of reincarnation on? Not just faith I hope.
I agree that we are ultimately fully responsible to ourselves for forgiveness but think that that is also dependent on seeking, when we can, forgiveness from the victims of our sins.
That is basically my Gnostic Christian view. Our views exclude any supernatural beliefs which is basically what reincarnation is.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am
Valued Senior Member
In this O.P., I take the position that literal or not, real or not, the religions that they spawned are either moral or not.
We cannot judge absentee Gods but we should all be able to judge if their religions are moral or not.
As a non-believer, care to opine from that point of view?
Regards
DL
Greatest I am
Valued Senior Member
Thanks.
I cannot accept your reply as it forgets the law of the excluded middle. A thing cannot be both good and evil.
Lies either have evil intent or good intent behind them.
What of the religions? Are they moral or not for keeping their views and lies alive?
Regards
DL
Greatest I am
Valued Senior Member
Greatest I am
Valued Senior Member
I see his teaching of substitutionary atonement as evil as it punishes the innocent instead of the guilty.
Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.
Do you agree?
If not, this Bishop listen to this link as it has a Bishop saying that that belief is what will do in Christianity.
Regards
DL
Greatest I am
Valued Senior Member
But your bible says that most of us are on the wide road to hell while only a few will be on the narrow path to heaven.
Will you be happy watching most of your family and friends roasting below you?
Regards
DL
Hermann
Registered Senior Member
I believe in afterlife, which is "supernatural" in your view. I would highly recommend to read the book from William Buhlman "Adventures in the Afterlife" (Kindle version). I think, this book gives a very realistic description.
Regards
Hermann
Greatest I am
Valued Senior Member
Do elaborate!
The way some religions generate and contextualize that need is problematic, I think.
True, but typically, this is not how people join religions or why.
Typically, people are born and raised into religions. They typically don't join because they want to make an end to their suffering, they typically don't join because they want to be happy. They have joined because it's a given that they join; their parents have made that decision for them. Typically, people make sense of their religiosity _after_ they have already joined (or have been joined).
If you are unhappy, but not already religious, and you seek a solution for your problems in religions, you are bound to fail (unless you are soon able to formulate your unhappiness in the terms of the religion you're about to join).
Many religions say that we need saving, that we cannot save ourselves. That's what the OP is about.