Japanese N-Plant Explosion

Well, the operators say they misread the figures, but did they really? It wasn't that long ago they evacuated the plant having misread the figures! Honestly, it's hardly confidence-inspiring stuff is it? Once, yeah maybe..twice? nah, I don't believe them anymore.

And here's an atricle that kinda backs up Iceauras' position (not that I nessecerily endorse it) http://hosted2.ap.org/APDefault/*/A...nami-Risk/id-1fa68fd89acd4bbb8d06f2438da6c143
 
Well, the operators say they misread the figures, but did they really? It wasn't that long ago they evacuated the plant having misread the figures! Honestly, it's hardly confidence-inspiring stuff is it? Once, yeah maybe..twice? nah, I don't believe them anymore.

And here's an atricle that kinda backs up Iceauras' position (not that I nessecerily endorse it) http://hosted2.ap.org/APDefault/*/A...nami-Risk/id-1fa68fd89acd4bbb8d06f2438da6c143

Because it's making many of the same assumptions ;).

Incidentally, the Jogan Tsunami in 869 is the Tsunami that inundated the Sendai plains to a depth of 8m that I have mentioned in this thread, several times now, but been told, several times now that designing to such a small Tsunami is absurd. I've even quoted some of the statistics mentioned in that article.

Can you imagine how hard I'm trying not to laugh at the moment?
 
adoucette said:
Generally speaking the further you get from the plant the more mixing there is the less "hot spots" you will have.
That doesn't mean you are safe in assuming even dispersal, at any relevant distance.
trippy said:
And here we go, once more around the block, just to demonstrate some more that you don't actually know what you're talking about.
Is that what you're trying to demonstrate? You will need to address at least one of the points I've been making, then:

trippy said:
Ignoring simple facts like "Maximum tsunami height observed in area is maximum tsunami height observed in area", and ignorin the fact that under that part of Northen Japan, the pacific plate is divided into several segments, each of which behaves differently, I might even point out that (again) that the plate motions are different in Japan and laugh as you proclaim that it's irrelevant, and complain about the science, and bag the scientests.
Whoops. Maybe some other time, then.

Seriously: you really don't know what I'm even talking about. Bizarre. How does that happen, among the technologically adept? That's one of the most important questions facing our future with nuclear power, (and GM technology, and medical innovations, and a couple of others).
trippy said:
It's to do with siting a Nuclear reactor at a low altitude, close to the water, in an area where the prevailing winds seem to be out to sea.
Matters that reduce the likely damage from likely mishaps. So?

Almost all nuclear power plants are at low altitude, close to major bodies of water of some kind (in Japan, the ocean's the big one), and in some kind of more or less predictable prevailing wind. If that's ironical in this case, you're missing the point again.

Let's check:
trippy said:
Incidentally, the Jogan Tsunami in 869 is the Tsunami that inundated the Sendai plains to a depth of 8m that I have mentioned in this thread, several times now, but been told, several times now that designing to such a small Tsunami is absurd. I've even quoted some of the statistics mentioned in that article.
Yep.

btw: No one has told you anything in that language, even once. Being mistaken like that, even rather badly and obviously, is not absurd - it's quite soberly characteristic. That's the problem.

Another one:
trippy said:
Yeah, and there's a good point right there, show me somewhere in Japan that isn't within 200km of a faultline (the radius the US NRC uses IIRC)
Why is that a "good point"?

Try this: ponder for a minute exactly what the US NRC "uses" that for. The nuclear plants near me are well within 200km of some faultlines, and the geologists have even less of a handle on midcontinent quakes than they have on the plate boundary ones. Suppose we try to answer the following basic question: does the long span of time since the last really big quake under Prairie Island, Minnesota, coupled with the New Madrid quake recently, make it more likely or less likely that one will hit soon?

That question cannot be answered with the necessary (nuclear power plant) level of confidence at the current level of geological science.
trippy said:
Can you imagine how hard I'm trying not to laugh at the moment?
Keep laughing, and yawning, tech boy - builds the kind of confidence in experts I think we need more of - well informed confidence.
 
Well, the operators say they misread the figures, but did they really? It wasn't that long ago they evacuated the plant having misread the figures! Honestly, it's hardly confidence-inspiring stuff is it? Once, yeah maybe..twice? nah, I don't believe them anymore.

And here's an atricle that kinda backs up Iceauras' position (not that I nessecerily endorse it) http://hosted2.ap.org/APDefault/*/A...nami-Risk/id-1fa68fd89acd4bbb8d06f2438da6c143

And the article is inaccurate to boot.

For example, it says this:
A TEPCO reassessment presented only four months ago concluded that tsunami-driven water would push no higher than 18 feet (5.7 meters) once it hit the shore at the Fukushima Dai-ichi complex. The reactors sit up a small bluff, between 14 and 23 feet (4.3 and 6.3 meters) above TEPCO's projected high-water mark, according to a presentation at a November seismic safety conference in Japan by TEPCO civil engineer Makoto Takao.
However, last time I checked 5.7+6.3≠13 which is what the presentation they're refering to gives as the (maximum) height required for the buildings to be reached.
 
Seriously: you really don't know what I'm even talking about. Bizarre. How does that happen, among the technologically adept? That's one of the most important questions facing our future with nuclear power, (and GM technology, and medical innovations, and a couple of others).
Probably a result of dealing with the technicaly inept (with short term memory problems).

Matters that reduce the likely damage from likely mishaps. So?
And there you go, missing the Irony.

Almost all nuclear power plants are at low altitude, close to major bodies of water of some kind (in Japan, the ocean's the big one), and in some kind of more or less predictable prevailing wind. If that's ironical in this case, you're missing the point again.

Let's check: Yep.
Nope.

btw: No one has told you anything in that language, even once. Being mistaken like that, even rather badly and obviously, is not absurd - it's quite soberly characteristic. That's the problem.
Bullshit.

Another one: Why is that a "good point"?

Try this: ponder for a minute exactly what the US NRC "uses" that for. The nuclear plants near me are well within 200km of some faultlines, and the geologists have even less of a handle on midcontinent quakes than they have on the plate boundary ones. Suppose we try to answer the following basic question: does the long span of time since the last really big quake under Prairie Island, Minnesota, coupled with the New Madrid quake recently, make it more likely or less likely that one will hit soon?

That question cannot be answered with the necessary (nuclear power plant) level of confidence at the current level of geological science.
Without knowledge of the fault morphology it's irrelevant. Something else I seem to have repeated several times now the physical properties of the fault including (arguably, especially) are the key trait in what can and can't happen at that fault.

But hey, if you want to rely on press sources that state that 6+6=13, be my guest.
 
trippy said:
And there you go, missing the Irony.
There isn't any. You mistake the entire situation.
trippy said:
Something else I seem to have repeated several times now the physical properties of the fault including (arguably, especially) are the key trait in what can and can't happen at that fault.
So?

Nobody's arguing with that. Everyone's taking that for granted. Nobody is making any argument for which that is a relevant observation - not even you.
trippy said:
Without knowledge of the fault morphology it's irrelevant.
No, it isn't. It's directly relevant to the design and siting of a nuclear power plant, in real life.

We don't have a secure and comprehensive geological understanding of earthquakes. We are building nuclear power plants anyway. That's the situation.
 
There isn't any. You mistake the entire situation.
WHOOSH! LOL!


So?

Nobody's arguing with that. Everyone's taking that for granted. Nobody is making any argument for which that is a relevant observation - not even you.
You specifically are, and your choice to ignore points that have been made is not the same thing as relevant arguments not being made.

I've made the point repeatedly - I was even correct on my prediction about this being a complex event made up of multiple ruptures (the significance of which I am confident will continue to elude you).

No, it isn't. It's directly relevant to the design and siting of a nuclear power plant, in real life.
Yes it is. It is completely irrelevant.
Faults stop moving - that's dependent upon regional stresses, they can shift their focus - The San Andreas fault system is a good example of that. Some faults, for any number of reasons (of which morphology is one) will never produce earthquakes larger than those that they already have. They are simply incapable of storing sufficient energy to produce an M8+ quake.

We don't have a secure and comprehensive geological understanding of earthquakes. We are building nuclear power plants anyway. That's the situation.
No.
You simply do not understand the depth of the knowledge that we do have. There's a fundamental difference.

All of this comes down to that question that I stated at this point must become the most important question to ask, but you dismissed. Why was the conjunctive rupture of all 6 segments not considered a viable scenario?
 
Yeah, and they even know the mistake they made.

The actual values for the water were 100,000 not 10 million times higher.....

Arthur

It makes not an iota of difference, it's still 100,000 times the normal level found within a reactor core.
The cores are damaged, split and/or melted rods
The cores are leaking in at least two installations.
No amount of pedantic banality is gonna change anything! (I bet you loved doing statistics, I found them most boring!) ;)

This is what I would suggest. First you'd have to pump the sump out into a tanker. I'd then weld up the leak, but you'd need to open the relief valve to keep the pressure down - you don't want the weld breaking.
Wait a couple of weeks for the Iodine to decay.
Pump out the water, and dry it into a sludge (dust would just get into the air, and you don't want that).
Add the sludge to some sand and make concrete with it. (Concrete's brilliant stuff - I love it!)
Encase the block(s) in fresh concrete and bury it complete with core, rods and all in a concrete saccophagus a la Chernobyl.
It might not work, but the rods are damaged most likely - so they probably won't come out whole anyway. There's nothing there worth saving, it's all just radioactive junk now. It's too hazardous to dismantle I think.
 
It does make a difference obviously.
If it was 10 million they would have a much more serious problem.
They are pumping the water from the turbine hall basement to the condenser already which when done will allow power restoration activities to continue.

The pressures are much lower now and stable and air radiation levels are not high so it's not likely that it is still leaking (There was most likely a small leak in the piping when the temps and pressures were VERY high).

They are most likely going to keep cooling the core and clean the basement and then replace the cooling pumps and then they will probably empty the spent fuel ponds and then after about a month or so, the reactors themselves.

Arthur
 
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It does make a difference obviously
If it was 10 million they would have a much more serious problem.

Only a difference in degree of lethality!

They are pumping the water from the turbine hall basement to the condenser already which when done will allow power restoration activities to continue.

Just so it can leak back down again?

The pressures are much lower now and stable and air radiation levels are not high so it's not likely that it is still leaking

Not so likely, but no-one knows for sure..


(There was most likely a small leak in the piping when the temps and pressures were VERY high).

Depends on your definition of small (it shouldn't have been any)

They are most likely going to keep cooling the core and clean the basement and then replace the cooling pumps

Is it worth it? What for? Nothing left to salvage really. Unless it can catch fire again of course..


and then they will probably empty the spent fuel ponds and then after about a month or so, the reactors themselves.
Arthur

Yeah, that's if they'll even come out. They could be melted and corroded and split-open by now.

It's not too much to empty the ponds though. That's good.
But the rest, well it's a lot of risk for little gain in the long-run. Ok they'll look like they care for the environment a bit more, but it wouldn't make much practical difference. 4-5000 tonnes of concrete. Just fill it up to the top of the dry-well and put a cap on it. But put some barium pellets in the concrete - they work wonders blocking radiation.
 
They finally found the guy in charge of the nuclear power plant!

20050121_v_homer-simpson5.jpg
 
Even if every nuclear plant in the world turned into a Chernobyl, Trippy would still defend them.

Considering it would take more then one Chernobyl per year to match the deathtoll from coal power per year, that position is not far from reasonable.
 
Even if every nuclear plant in the world turned into a Chernobyl, Trippy would still defend them.

Now you're just being daft. And mis-stating my position to boot.

I just have trouble taking seriously a news article that reads like someone finally found the wikipedia page on the 869 earthquake and then bowls right ahead and makes such an obvious factual error as claiming that 6+6=13.
 
Has it been noted yet in this thread that they found plutonium outside the plant?

I can't remember, and the Al-Jazeera live feed said it.
 
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