Jesus Christ - reasons for skepticism

[Kapyong]

Hi all,

It was in my biology text,

How dishonest!
It was in your book as an example of a past ERROR.
It was NOT in your book as an example of current science.
Lieing for Jesus again, Woody?

and it's still around today.

Sure, as an example of a past ERROR.
Not as current science.
Lieing again it seems.

It continues to show up in misguided school texts as a proof of evolution when it is not.

False.
Completely an totally 100% wrong.
Haeckel's picture are NOT proof of evolution,
and were NEVER claimed as such.


Sadly, Woody is now reduced to lieing outright.
How very sad.


Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Hiya,

and the Jews have paid for it ever since. So do tell us how the jews murdered a metaphor in Jerusalem.

Woody -
YOU claimed the JM theory only started recently.

I showed clear and present evidence of doubts and criticism from as far back as the 2nd century -

including specific examples of claims the Gospels were based on MYTH.

You IGNORED it all!

Clear evidence you were wrong, and you just waved it all away with one silly sentence.

Woody -
you do not appear able to admit when you are wrong.

In fact,
when shown wrong you run away and change the subject.

You lose.
Everyone can see it but you.


Kapyong

 

[John99]

Hiya,

Woody -
you do not appear able to admit when you are wrong.

In fact,
when shown wrong you run away and change the subject.

You lose.
Everyone can see it but you.


Kapyong

Wrong about what?

Of course this person existed, if he didn't you wouldn't be having this conversation. The issue of weather Jesus is the Messiah is an individual choice.

Everyone believes in something, the difference is we dont know what you believe in because you are too much of a coward to say what it is.

You are also a sock puppet.

 

[mustafhakofi]

There are plenty of places you can go for the research, but I'll give you a start:

Historicity of Jesus

All refuted on this very thread, By Iasion and Wizard. Got anything else.

The Jesus Myth hypothesis (that the person never existed), on the otherhand, has no historical evidence, and I challenge you to show it.

It has already been shown on this very thread, It is not for me to show there is no historical evidence that is a given, you claim there is evidence the burden is yours.

Consider the Jews:

For what, They have the same fantasies as you, bar a messiah, which all lacks any evidence, whats your point, Have you got a neutral source that can prove your claim. if all you got is a holy book or even a jewish version of that said holy book. your severely lacking any credible evidence.

They have been living with it ever since as "Christ Murderers", and that in itself is a testament. The finger of accusation is pointed squarely at them, and yet you say Jesus did not even exist. Well geee, don't you think they would have pointed it out if Jesus did not even exist and was not crucified?

Why would they, they have no reason too, he means nothing to them, And I must emphasize this, This information is only in your holy book no other source.

The jews do not say the person of Jesus never existed, and they were accused of the crime. If Jesus never existed to start with, then why don't they say so?

The Talmud contains NO evidence for Jesus, the Talmud merely has much later Jewish responses to the Gospel stories, You are in error if you think the jews ever mentioned a jesus. other than in rebuttal.

You tell me musta, how did the jews murder a metaphor?

They didn't thats only your own wishful thinking from your own holy book. the jews murdered nobody, the muslims call all who don't believe in allah infidels, according to there holy book, that includes christians. The jews holy books word, was gentile ( which mean barbarian/pagan) this too, included the christians, so it would not be considered strange for christian to satanise jews or muslims in there holy books. and what better way then to say they killed the messiah.
Woody it's all BS, man. there is no evidence for any of it.

 

[Woody]

“ Originally Posted by Woody
Consider the Jews: ”

musta said:

For what,

Because they lived in Jerusalem at the time. obviously

“ Originally Posted by Woody
They have been living with it ever since as "Christ Murderers", and that in itself is a testament. The finger of accusation is pointed squarely at them, and yet you say Jesus did not even exist. Well geee, don't you think they would have pointed it out if Jesus did not even exist and was not crucified? ”

Musta said:

Why would they, "

'cuz of their stigmuh. it's BADD. real real BADDDD.

they have no reason too, he means nothing to them,

but their stigma means plenty to them. throughout history it's one holocast after another for the jews. They aren't too popular in the middle east either.

And I must emphasize this, This information is only in your holy book no other source.

I'm afraid you're quite wrong there.

It is in Jewish tradition that Jesus (known to them as Yeshua) was a rabbi and prophet for christians, but not the messiah. As you said the jews have no interest in perpetuating a Jesus myth. So I ask you , why are they?

“ Originally Posted by Woody
The jews do not say the person of Jesus never existed, and they were accused of the crime. If Jesus never existed to start with, then why don't they say so? ”

The Talmud contains NO evidence for Jesus, the Talmud merely has much later Jewish responses to the Gospel stories, You are in error if you think the jews ever mentioned a jesus. other than in rebuttal.

They never denied he existed. Yet they have lived with the stigma of his murder for nearly 2000 years. It's a testimony they can not deny.

“ Originally Posted by Woody
You tell me musta, how did the jews murder a metaphor? ”

They didn't thats only your own wishful thinking from your own holy book.

I don't wish ill on the jewish people. I believe they are God's chosen people even as the Old Testament (the jewish bible) tells.

the jews murdered nobody,

yet they live with the stigma, and don't deny it. Why?

You defend the jews better than a zionist. The jews won't even defend themselves regarding the death of the prophet Jesus, but you will...why he didn't even exist you say....that's quite funny...

the muslims call all who don't believe in allah infidels, according to there holy book, that includes christians.

The muslims acknowledge Jesus was a prophet, but they claim Judas was crucified instead. You are from a muslim background, you should know this already.

The jews holy books word, was gentile ( which mean barbarian/pagan) this too, included the christians, so it would not be considered strange for christian to satanise jews or muslims in there holy books.

Yet the jews do not deny Jesus existed as a prophet. Why not?

and what better way then to say they killed the messiah.

and the jews do not deny this. Why not?

Woody it's all BS, man. there is no evidence for any of it.

You're just another atheist hard head that can't accept that any prophet ever lived whether it's Jesus, Mohammed, Moses or anyone. :shrug:

 

[Woody]

Hi all,

How dishonest!
It was in your book as an example of a past ERROR.

The biogenetic law was taught as a proof of evolution in my biology class in 1968. You weren't there, and I was.

So you go to my ignore list as a blatant liar.

Here, take your picture with you:

There's the Biogenetic Law and the Jesus Myth Hypothesis -- both atheistic analogies -- and a law is more convincing than a hypothesis. Hence as a scientist I should have more confidence in the Biogenetic Law than the Jesus Myth Hypothesis, though analogies are worthless anyway.

 

[Woody]

You do by claiming the bible as evidence.

I haven't made any supernatural claim in this thread.

By claiming the bible as evidence, you do.

In your opinion I've made some ulterior claim, but I feel this is a red herring on your part. We are not debating whether Jesus was a god-man, but whether Jesus existed as a person. I'm getting rather tired of this. If you don't want to stay on topic, then I suggest you start another thread and close this one. :shrug:

 

[Kapyong]

Gday,

Wrong about what?

As explained in detail in the post above,
Woody was wrong in his claim that no-on doubted Jesus until recent centuries.

There are numerous doubts and sceptical claims from as far back as the 2nd century - including Celsus' claim that the Gospels were based on MYTHS, and Porphyry saying the evangelist's INVENTED the story, and even Christians who didn't believe Jesus came in the flesh.

Of course, as others have pointed out - this was not a time of great scepticism, people believed in all sorts of beings and god-men. No-one denied Bacchus, or Osiris, or Hercules until quite late too.

Of course this person existed, if he didn't you wouldn't be having this conversation.

Of course this person may not have existed, else we wouldn't be having this conversation. If it was certain, there wouldn't be any Jesus Mythicists.

Everyone believes in something, the difference is we dont know what you believe in because you are too much of a coward to say what it is.

Pardon?
I have argued based on facts which can be checked, and you attack me as a coward for not expressing my beliefs? How bizzare.

Iasion demolished Woody, so Woody ran away from his posts - how's THAT for cowardice?

You are also a sock puppet.

So, you don't have ANY actual argument, no facts, no real debate - just personal insults. How surprising.


Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Hiyas,

The biogenetic law was taught as a proof of evolution in my biology class in 1968. You weren't there, and I was.

Did you think we wouldn't notice your dishonest sleight of hand there Woody?

You claimed Haeckel's pictures were used in your textbooks.

When in fact, Haeckel's pictures were rejected as distorted in the 19th century - well over a 100 years ago. Textbooks DO sometimes show them as historical curiousities, NOT as evidence of evolution.

So now, instead of admitting you were wrong, you CHANGE the claim to
"The biogenetic law" !?

How dishonest.
You just CANNOT ever admit you were wrong, can you WOody?

So you go to my ignore list as a blatant liar.

Yup, true to form, Woody simply kill-files anyone who shows he is wrong - eventually Woody can only see those posts that agree with him - so he thinks he has won !

How sad and pathetic.


Kapyong

 

[John99]

So, you don't have ANY actual argument, no facts, no real debate - just personal insults. How surprising.


Kapyong

Neither do you and that was not a personal insult because that was an observation. Unless you tell us your beliefs or what cult you belong to then it is just an observation.

I have debated many here on this subject and it is boring because it is all based on their opinions or often times personal issues and most of the time my religion is better than yours, my secret cult makes me know more etc.

That is about it unless you have anything to add then feel free to do so. But i am not here to debate you personal feelings or what you cut and paste from a source that could never possibly back up what they say.

So go ahead and ask away or present something that can at least be interesting.

 

[USS Exeter]

Firstly, I find it very ironic that the only people talking about Jesus so much are atheists. I agree with many parts of quantum's first post. Many of the 'miracles' that jesus performed would not necessarily be considered miracles today now that we have modern medicine and more of an understanding of the world.

 

[Kapyong]

Gday,

Neither do you and that was not a personal insult because that was an observation. Unless you tell us your beliefs or what cult you belong to then it is just an observation.

What?
We are in a thread discussing reasons to be sceptical about Jesus. I posted on that subject - facts from historical writers that can be checked. You ignored all that, and then want to know my "cult" or "beliefs"? How bizarre. Surely what matters is the facts, the evidence - not any cult or belief. This is an extremely odd comment John.

I have debated many here on this subject and it is boring because it is all based on their opinions or often times personal issues and most of the time my religion is better than yours, my secret cult makes me know more etc.

Hard to even know what you are trying to say.

But i am not here to debate you personal feelings or what you cut and paste from a source that could never possibly back up what they say.

First you ask for my beliefs or cult, then you say you DON'T want to hear my feelings or cut and paste. Doesn't make a lot of sense John.

What I DID add here was examples of early writers who were sceptical about Jesus.

Incredibly - you IGNORED all of it, then had the audacity to quote the last part were I concluded that "Woody was wrong" AND ask "wrong about what?" when you had just snipped out the detailed explanation of how Woody was wrong! How dishonest.

That is about it unless you have anything to add then feel free to do so. ... So go ahead and ask away or present something that can at least be interesting.

I DID !
You completely IGNORED it.
Because it challenged your faithful beliefs.

Here it is again -
Examples of early writers who expressed various doubts about Jesus :


The NT book 2 John warns of those who don't
"acknowledge the coming of Jesus Christ in the flesh".
This shows some did NOT believe Jesus came in the flesh.

Various early Christians believed Jesus was a phantom.

Marcion, in mid 2nd century, claimed Jesus was a phantom or spiritual entity, and not born of Mary :
“Marcion, I suppose, took sound words in a wrong sense, when he rejected His birth from Mary...”

Basilides, in mid 2nd century, denied Jesus was really crucified, and the physical resurrection :
"Christ sent, not by this maker of the world, but by the above-named Abraxas; and to have come in a phantasm,"

Minucius Felix, in mid 2nd century, explicitly denies the incarnation and crucifixion along with other horrible accusations.
"...he who explains their ceremonies by reference to a man punished by extreme suffering for his wickedness, and to the deadly wood of the cross, appropriates fitting altars for reprobate and wicked men ... when you attribute to our religion the worship of a criminal and his cross you wander far from the truth", and also: "Men who have died cannot become gods, because a god cannot die; nor can men who are born (become gods) ... Why, I pray, are gods not born today, if such have ever been born?" -

Tatian, in later 2nd century, compared Christianity with pagan mythology and wrote:
“Compare you own stories with our narratives. Take a look at your own records and accept us merely on the grounds that we too tell stories”

Celsus, in late 2nd century, attacked the Gospels as fiction based on myths :
"Clearly the christians have used...myths... in fabricating the story of Jesus' birth...It is clear to me that the writings of the christians are a lie and that your fables are not well-enough constructed to conceal this monstrous fiction"

Caius, claimed the truth about Jesus was falsified from the late 2nd century :
"For they say that ... from ... Zephyrinus the truth was falsified ..."

Porphyry, in late 3rd century, claimed the Gospels were invented :
"... the evangelists were inventors – not historians”

Julian, in the 4th century, claimed Jesus was spurious, counterfeit, invented :
"why do you worship this spurious son...a counterfeit son", "you have invented your new kind of sacrifice ".
"I am convinced that the fabrication of the Galilaeans is a fiction of men composed by wickedness.. ”


Woody couldn't face those facts - can you ?


Kapyong

 

[Kapyong]

Gday,

Firstly, I find it very ironic that the only people talking about Jesus so much are atheists.

How would you know?
Did you check?
Or just make an assumption?


Kapyong
(Not an atheist.)

 

[John99]

Firstly, I find it very ironic that the only people talking about Jesus so much are atheists. I agree with many parts of quantum's first post. Many of the 'miracles' that jesus performed would not necessarily be considered miracles today now that we have modern medicine and more of an understanding of the world.

Most are not Atheists, that is the claim often made but it is too personal. I had a post written up for kopyongs manifesto but at this point it doesnt really matter.

"Cyrilius in 900AD said this..." blah, blah, blah, what is that supposed to mean? And who the hell is Cyrillius?

My views on this are consistent with all religions and people can check my 12k+ posts. I am an Agnostic and peoples beliefs dont really bother me.

As for the existence of the person himself: I dont know of ant religions claiming a living figurehead that never existed. Proof of this is repeated throughout known history and i can point to numerous examples and none which go the other way.

Even Scientology has L.Ron Hubbard who will always be viewed as the founder. Denying that is moronic. That is just one example.

Everyone believes in something. Even if you are an Atheist you go through life with some belief that is just what it is though...a belief. This is something that cannot be denied.

 

[John99]

Gday,
Kapyong
(Not an atheist.)

Exactly.

Will you be converting people?

 

[Woody]

So in summary, no Jesus Myther has presented an adequate explanation for the Jesus Killer stigma on the jews. If Jesus never existed, why didn't the early jews just say so and rid themselves of this stigma that culminated in the holocast? Not only that, but the jews have a messianic branch that believes Yeshua (Jesus) was indeed the messiah. The jews were there in Jerusalem when the crucifiction happened.

For more reading about it:

Jesus through Jewish Eyes


When Pilate saw that he could not prevail at all, but rather that a tumult was rising, he took water and washed his hands and said, “I am innocent of the blood of this Just person. You see to it.” And all the people answered and said, “His blood be upon us and on our children.” (Matthew 27:24–25)

and the blood of Jesus has been on the jews ever since.

ahh yes time to log another blog entry over at scripture refiner's fire -- this one about the atheist "control freaks" at the river of denial. :bawl:

 

[mustafhakofi]

“ Originally Posted by Woody
Consider the Jews: ” musta said:Because they lived in Jerusalem at the time. obviously
“ Originally Posted by Woody
They have been living with it ever since as "Christ Murderers", and that in itself is a testament. The finger of accusation is pointed squarely at them, and yet you say Jesus did not even exist. Well geee, don't you think they would have pointed it out if Jesus did not even exist and was not crucified? ” Musta said:'cuz of their stigmuh. it's BADD. real real BADDDD.
but their stigma means plenty to them. throughout history it's one holocast after another for the jews. They aren't too popular in the middle east either.
I'm afraid you're quite wrong there.
It is in Jewish tradition that Jesus (known to them as Yeshua) was a rabbi and prophet for christians, but not the messiah. As you said the jews have no interest in perpetuating a Jesus myth. So I ask you , why are they?

The Talmud was written over the third, fourth, and fifth centuries.
In the tractiate Sanhedrin, page 43a it mentions a Yeshu(Jehoshua), who was hung for forty days before his execution. it also states he was born a hundred years pre-christ and that he had five desciples Matthai, Nakai, Nezer, Buni and Todah who were executed along side him. are you sure that this Yeshu is your Jesus.
Here you have a Jewish source, that admits that Yeshua was hanged by a decision of a Jewish court.this statements is very important to Jewish history, because over the centuries the Jewish community denied that Jesus was crucified by decision of a Jewish court, in fact over the centuries, Jewish Rabbis and Jewish scholars denied that Jesus ever existed. And here you have within their source, a clear admission that Yeshua existed, he was tried by a Jewish court, and executed by a Jewish court.
The story is a polemic story, not a historical story, it does not state a historical fact, it's a piece of propaganda against Christianity and against Jesus. Of course, the story itself does not fit the Biblical, New Testament version. First of all, Jesus was tried on the night before his execution, according to the New Testament, Yeshua was forty days earlier. Second, interestingly this polemic also states that through all these forty days a herald went forth shouting calling for anybody that had something to plead on behalf of Yeshua, but nobody came forth for forty days. It's an interesting polemic technique, in other words it comes to justify the crucifixion of Yeshua, to say, you see, we gave him a chance, we gave the public a chance to come and defend him, but nobody came for forty days. In other words we went over and above our obligation to be fair in the trial of Jesus. So if it was in regard to a jesus person, they wanted to make him out to be the bad guy.

Also In the last century we've had jimmy jones, david koresh. etc all stating they are the messiah, the same thing must have been happening then, ever heard of Apolonius.
The christians and jews and muslims all follow the abrahamic god. even the muslims have a prophet called Isa(Jesus), nothing like yours I might add, it does in no way make Isa/Yeshua/Jesus a real person all it does is show that the fantasies came from the same source, tis all.

There have been many people claiming to be the messiah these include
Dionysus
Osiris
Tammuz
Krishna
Zarathustra
Mithra
Quetzalcote
Prometheus
Jesus
Yeshua
Bar Kochba
Shabbetai Tzvi

The Talmud contains NO evidence for Jesus, the Talmud merely has much later Jewish responses to the Gospel stories, You are in error if you think the jews ever mentioned a jesus. other than in rebuttal.

“ Originally Posted by Woody
The jews do not say the person of Jesus never existed, and they were accused of the crime. If Jesus never existed to start with, then why don't they say so? ”
They never denied he existed. Yet they have lived with the stigma of his murder for nearly 2000 years. It's a testimony they can not deny.
“ Originally Posted by Woody
You tell me musta, how did the jews murder a metaphor? ”
I don't wish ill on the jewish people. I believe they are God's chosen people even as the Old Testament (the jewish bible) tells.
yet they live with the stigma, and don't deny it. Why?
You defend the jews better than a zionist. The jews won't even defend themselves regarding the death of the prophet Jesus, but you will...why he didn't even exist you say....that's quite funny...
The muslims acknowledge Jesus was a prophet, but they claim Judas was crucified instead. You are from a muslim background, you should know this already.
Yet the jews do not deny Jesus existed as a prophet. Why not?
and the jews do not deny this. Why not?
You're just another atheist hard head that can't accept that any prophet ever lived whether it's Jesus, Mohammed, Moses or anyone. :shrug:

Wrong! see above reply.
oh and I'm a sensible ex-muslim humanist woman, a rarity. We are usually killed off by religious nut jobs.

 

[cluelusshusbund]

Just thought to allow people to vent a little as to why they feel intensely skeptical of the truth behind the existence of Jesus Christ as depicted in the New testament of the Christian Bible.

Its jus a part of evoluton that diferent groops tend to pass down ther specific superstitions to ther kids... but none of the "God" stories have enuff credibility for me to thank ther actualy true... but for sure... if verifiable evidence cam to lite that the "Jesus-stuff" was true... a plan shud be devised to try an destroy the monster-God described in the Holey Bible.!!!

 

[Woody]

this statements is very important to Jewish history, because over the centuries the Jewish community denied that Jesus was crucified by decision of a Jewish court, in fact over the centuries, Jewish Rabbis and Jewish scholars denied that Jesus ever existed.

But you failed to explain why the jews can't shake the stigma of "murdering Jesus", who was tried by Pontious Pilate. Nor have you explained why the "prophet" Jesus is taught in their tradition as a teacher for the gentiles.

Jesus was tried under Caiaphas who served under Simon haNasi. This would be somewhere between 4 AD and 70 AD.

John 18:14 Now Caiaphas was he, which gave counsel to the Jews, that it was expedient that one man should die for the people.

List of Jewish Leaders in the Land of Israel

After Archelaeus, there ruled a series of Roman governors over Judea, however, the Jews kept their autonomy. They continued to be ruled in their religious life by the high priests, appointed by the Roman governors, and in their civil life by the Sanhedrin under the Nasi. The Sanhedrin was believed to have begun with Ezra, and continued under the line of the House of David. The following list is that of the Nesiim. The corresponding High Priests are mentioned in the summaries:

Hillel 20BCE-16CE - under whose rule, the following were High Priests: Matityahu ben Theophilus 20BCE?-4BCE, Yoazar, Eleazar ben Boethus, Joshua, Anan ben Seth, and Ishmael.
Shimon haNasi - under whose rule, the following were High Priests: Eleazar ben Anan, Shimon ben Camithus, and Joseph Caiaphas.
Gamliel I - under whose rule, the following were High Priests: Jonathan ben Anan & Theophilus ben Anan. During the rule of Gamliel, the House of Herod was restored and:
Agrippa I - assumed the throne of Judea. He appointed as High Priest: Shimon Cantheras, Matityahu ben Anan, Aljoneus, and Jonathan ben Anan.
Herod II - successor to Agrippa I, appointed as High Priests: Josephus ben Camydus, Anan ben Nebedeus, and Jonathan.
Agrippa II - appointed as High Priests: Ishmael ben Fabus, Joseph Cabi, Anan ben Artanus, Joshua ben Damneus, Joshua ben Gamliel, Matityahu ben Theophilus, and Pinhas ben Shmuel. In 66CE, the great revolt began against Rome ending in the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70CE, the abolition of the High Priesthood, and the final defeat at Massada in 73. Agrippa II was exiled to Rome during the revolt where he died.

sorry, nice try....:shrug:

 

[Kapyong]

Gday,

Exactly.

Exactly what?
WTF is your POINT ?!

Will you be converting people?

WTF?
John - your entire world seems filled with cults and beliefs and preaching.

But, we are NOT in your church now John.
We are on a scientific forum discussing reasons for scepticism about Jesus.

And you have failed to address the points brought up, you have repeatedly ignored the facts - all you do is preach bizarre nonsense - because you can't handle the truth presented.



Kapyong