Jesus is not God
- Thread starter Medicine*Woman
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pixel said:
This post is important. Pixel - Jesus did not consider equality with God something to be achieved. This is why He is not ashamed to call us brothers.
But He is who I say He is, even if He is humble and mild and meek.
He is salvation.
peace
c20
SVRP said:
On several occasions the Jesus told the Pharisees that their doctrine was wrong. Mark 2:7 records an instance where this was the case. There is no verse of Scripture that says, “only God can forgive sins.” That idea came from their tradition. The truth is that God grants the authority to forgive sins as He pleases. He granted that authority to the Son and, furthermore, to the apostles. John 20:23 records Jesus saying to them: “If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven.” If the Pharisees were right, and only God can forgive sins, then God, Jesus and the apostles were all God, because they all had the authority to forgive sins.
The context of the verse shows that its subject is the fact that Jesus was alive. Only three verses earlier, Thomas had ignored the eyewitness testimony of the other apostles when they told him they had seen the Lord. The resurrection of Christ was such a disputed doctrine that Thomas did not believe it (the other apostles had not either), and thus Jesus’ death would have caused Thomas to doubt that Jesus was who he said he was—the Messiah. Thomas believed Jesus was dead. Thus, he was shocked and astonished when he saw—and was confronted by— Jesus Himself. His reaction to the view is no different then when we are saying "Oh my God".
The English language makes a clear distinction between “God” and “god.” Thus, in English Bibles, the heavenly Father is called “God,” while lesser divinities, people with God’s authority on earth and important people such as kings, are also called “god” (2 Cor. 4:4; John 10:34 and 35; Acts 12:22). The Hebrew and Aramaic languages cannot make the distinction between “God” and “god.” Since Hebrew and Aramaic have only capital letters, every use is “GOD.” Furthermore, although the Greek language has both upper case and lower case letters as English does, the early Greek manuscripts did not blend them. It was the style of writing at the time of the New Testament to make manuscripts in all capital letters, so the Greek manuscripts were, like the Hebrew text, all upper case script. Scholars call these manuscripts “uncials,” and that style was popular until the early ninth century or so when a smaller script was developed for books.
Now that in mind lets move on.
The Semitic languages, and both the Latin and Greek spoken by the early Christians, used the word “God” with a broader meaning than we do today. “God” was a descriptive title applied to a range of authorities, including great people, rulers and people acting with God’s authority. In John 10:33, when the Jews challenged Jesus and said he was claiming to be “a god” (mistranslated in most versions as “God”; see our note on that verse), he answered them by asking them if they had read in the Old Testament that people to whom the Word of God came were called “GODS” (and we use all caps here because the earliest texts did. It is hard to escape the modern notion that “God” refers to the True God and “gods” referred to lesser deities).
Any study of the words for “God” in both Hebrew and Greek will show that they were applied to people as well as to God. This is strange to English-speaking people because we use “God” in reference only to the true God, but both Hebrew and Greek used “God” of God, great men, other gods, angels and divine beings. It is the context that determines whether “God” or a great person is being referred to. This is actually a cause of occasional disagreement between translators, and they sometimes argue about whether “GOD” refers to God, the Father, or to a powerful person or representative of God. One example of this occurs in Exodus 21:6, which instructs a master whose servant wishes to serve him for life to bring the servant “to Elohim.” The KJV, the NIV and many others believe that the owner of the servant is supposed to bring the servant before the local authorities, and so they translate Elohim as “judges” (see also Ex. 22:8 and 9 for more examples). Other translators felt that the master was required to bring the servant to God, so they translated Elohim as “God.”(e.g., NRSV) Thus, the verse will read, “God” or “judges,” depending on the translation.
Hebrews 1:8 is like other verses in that just because the word “theos” (“GOD”) is used does not mean that it refers to the Father. It could easily be referring to “god” in the biblical sense that great men are called “god.” The Septuagint uses the word theos for God, but also for men in places like Psalm 82 where men represent God. The context must be the determining factor in deciding what “GOD” refers to. In this case, in Hebrews that we are studying, the context is clear. Throughout the entire context from Hebrews 1:1, Christ is seen to be lesser than God the Father. Therefore, the use of “theos” here should be translated “god.”
The context must determine whether Christ is being referred to as the Supreme Being or just a man with great authority, so it must be read carefully. In this case, however, one need not read far to find that Christ, called “God,” himself has a “God.” The very next verse, Hebrews 1:9, says, “therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions.” Thus, Christ cannot be the supreme God, because the supreme God does not have a God. Furthermore, Christ’s God “set” him above others and “anointed” him. This makes it abundantly clear that the use of theos here in Hebrews is not referring to Christ being the supreme God, but rather a man with great authority under God.
I will answer the rest later.
Peace be unto you
Man cannot bear that Jesus who came as a human being might be greater than they are. Their pride will not allow it. This is why you have to look at suffering.
When one of the Apostles said "I want to rule next to you in the Kingdom" Jesus said "You do not know what you are asking"
Jesus is top dog because of His SUFFERING whilst INNOCENT OF WRONGDOING. I do not know how many times I have to say this HE IS GREATER THAN YOU ARE. Get over it! Bow your head out of respect unless want to rule with Him. In which case pick up your cross and walk but I tell you you will have to share in His sufferings. Easier to bow your head and accept a lower place in the Kingdom of God. But don't you dare raise your head above Him. It will be cut off.
peace
c20
When one of the Apostles said "I want to rule next to you in the Kingdom" Jesus said "You do not know what you are asking"
Jesus is top dog because of His SUFFERING whilst INNOCENT OF WRONGDOING. I do not know how many times I have to say this HE IS GREATER THAN YOU ARE. Get over it! Bow your head out of respect unless want to rule with Him. In which case pick up your cross and walk but I tell you you will have to share in His sufferings. Easier to bow your head and accept a lower place in the Kingdom of God. But don't you dare raise your head above Him. It will be cut off.
peace
c20
The questions have been repeated because your answers have not been thorough and do not take into consideration the culture of the first century Jew. They took a literal translation that God is not a man from Numbers 23:19.786 said:You have just copied from some site and repeated your questions. So there isn't anything new here. Wait for my answers please and stop repeating the same questions which you have already asked, or those which have been already answered.
Peace be upon you
The apostles knew what Jesus was referring to, the Jews knew what Jesus was referring to when they wanted to stone Him, and Caiaphas knew what He was referring to when he charged Jesus with blasphemy. What you are implying is that Jesus should have gone around with a disclaimer, publicist, and translator, saying, "This is what He meant by His sayings, teachings, miracles, and about Himself." If that was true Jesus would not have been sentenced to die.
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SVRP said:
Well are you trying to ask then why was Jesus (pbuh) being stoned if he was not God.
Yes I have not talked about this, but I have this in consideration. If you don't recall from the Bible that other prophets were also stoned. Then one must ask why were they stoned, was it because they were claiming to be God?
You and I should both agree that no prophet claimed to be God. Then why were they stoned?
Jews stoning Jesus (pbuh) doesn't prove that he is God, this is the reason I didn't care to discuss it, but if it clears your mind of doubts then I would be more than happy to.
Peace be upon you
786 said:Yes Jesus, and all the prophets (pbut) are greater than me, but that doesn't mean I bow to them. Jesus, and all other prophets (pbut) have my highest respect but I bow only to God just as Jesus (pbuh) instructed.
Peace be unto you
Jesus is God. He said "I and the Father are one"
Now that I have received the Holy Spirit, I may also speak as my brother spoke but Jesus is the Lamb of God. The only Begotten son. I am a son by adoption. I am not a rightful heir but I am an heir by grace. If you do not have the Son, nor will you see the Father. I tell you the truth.
peace
c20
anonymous2
Registered Senior Member
c20H25N3o said:
This argument in a way is futile. First off, the "I and the Father are one statement" needs to be read in context. Notice that when the Jews got mad at Jesus, he said, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said ye are gods'".. so if they're called 'gods', "why get upset that I call myself the Son of God?" So he calls himself the Son of God, not God. And if there was no legitimate distinction between the two, why did he make it? "Personhood" is not a legitimate distinction in this passage, in my opinion. The implication is that he's saying he's less than God, to me.
Besides, a Muslim does not accept everything written in the Bible as factual. So it's futile. You're asking him to abandon what he thinks is true from what he was brought up in. This is why I question religion. Because if you're right, he's going to hell, isn't he? Just for being wrong about a religious belief, sincerely wrong, which he was brought up in.
c20H25N3o said:
c20, thanks for your encouragement in other posts... But I have to tell you, my refusal to believe that Jesus is God has nothing to do with my "not being able to bear that he is greater than me", as you suggested. Frankly, I KNOW he was greater than me, by virtue of his morality and wisdom (and I'm not talking about the Church here). I think it's a little simplistic to say some of us don't take him as God because we're jealous of him.
Also, saying things like "But don't you dare raise your head above Him; It will be cut off" doesn't help your cause. AT ALL.
pixel said:
This is exactly what Satan did pixel. Satan was jealous of Christ's power. Satan tested Jesus and failed. Satan raised his head above that of the Christ and said "I am better than this. I am more beautiful, more powerful", yet he was only an angel. But of the Christ, God said "This is my Son in whom I am pleased.". Note God did not call any of the angels His Son. God raised Jesus up again to show where the real power lay. This is about eternal life pixel. not this life. This is about a Kingdom of Power and Glory, not this life. Each living being must give account and those that believed in Jesus will be raised to live with Him forever, those that rejected Him did so because they thought they were better than the suffering Christ. It is only fitting that those that rejected Him perish. It is only fair that Christians speak of this since we are assured of our own salvation through the Holy Spirit whom we have received by grace. We wish to share the Good News, that no man might be lost.
I am afraid I cannot mince my words to appease the easily offended. To do so would be very luke warm indeed. Just as Satan will one day be destroyed, so will those who rejected Christ. This life is about making a choice. It isn't a difficult one. The work has already been done.
peace
c20
anonymous2
Registered Senior Member
c20H25N3o said:
From my understanding, Muslims believe Jesus was sinless. So I would suppose he does.
786 said:Well I don't know much about this topic. I suppose he was.
Peace be upon you
Innocent life for a guilty life. This is the law. I know your love of God 786 but I tell you the truth, The Father and Son are One. And Jesus is the Son of God. This was the only accusation against him. This is why He was put to death with a little plaque above his head. For your sake. He died for your sake. It must not be overlooked. To overlook it is to overlook God.
Look at it another way. Let's suppose that you are right and Jesus was just another prophet pointing to the Great I Am. Since I know the Great I Am, He would be unlikely to have a go at me for exalting a prophet as His son. He would just say "I love you son".
But suppose in your heart for one moment that I am correct when I say Jesus is the Son of God and that He has His place in the hearts of men because of his sinless offering for the sake of man. Since He is Who Is how could he accept anything else but your worship, for He is the Lamb of God, Baby Jesus, God's own Son. You cannot have the Father without the Son and nor can you have the Son without the Father.
Trust me on this my friend. I am not against you. Discern for yourself. I also call Him Allah.
peace
c20
c20H25N3o said:
I know you care for me. But I care for you. You are giving the Glory of God to a prophet of God.
BTW you are getting emotional here, I am discussing the verses.
The thing is you believe Jesus is God, while Jesus himself never claimed to be God.
If you cannot prove it through the Bible then why do you believe in it?
Peace be upon you
786 said:I know you care for me. But I care for you. You are giving the Glory of God to a prophet of God.
BTW you are getting emotional here, I am discussing the verses.
The thing is you believe Jesus is God, while Jesus himself never claimed to be God.
If you cannot prove it through the Bible then why do you believe in it?
Peace be upon you
God said "This is my son in whom I am pleased"
What more do you want????
The reason Jesus was humble is because love is humble. God is love. Capiche?
Jesus was God's love made flesh. Just as we become our father's love made flesh.
Humility is the exact opposite of pride. Those who practice humility think more highly of others than they do of themselves (Phil. 2:3) and put the well-being of others ahead of their own well-being (Phil. 2:4). The Lord Jesus Christ taught others about the importance of humility and practiced it flawlessly in His own life.
I. Jesus taught others about humility.
He taught His disciples to humble themselves as little children (Matthew 18:1-4).
He taught His disciples to be ministers and servants instead of kings and princes (Matthew 20:25-28).
He taught His disciples to be servants instead of masters (Matthew 23:10-12).
He taught His disciples to be servants of all to be first and greatest of all (Mark 9:33-35).
He taught His disciples to be least of all to be the greatest of all (Luke 9:46-48).
He taught His disciples to take the lowest position to reach the highest position (Luke 14:7-11).
He taught the religious but lost to be like the publican instead of like the Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14).
II. Jesus practiced humility.
He took upon Himself the form of a servant (Phil. 2:7).
He was made in the likeness of men (Phil. 2:7).
He was found in fashion as a man (Phil. 2:8).
He voluntarily became poor for the sake of God’s elect (2 Cor. 8:9).
He was born in a stable and laid in a manger (Luke 2:7).
He was raised in a poor family (Luke 2:22-24).
He grew up in the wicked place called Nazareth (John 1:46).
He had nowhere to lay His head (Luke 9:58).
He was a friend to publicans and sinners (Matthew 11:19).
He allowed Himself to be anointed by a sinful woman (Luke 7:36-39,44-48).
He washed His disciples’ feet (John 13:3-5, 12-17).
He became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross (Phil. 2:8).
He was buried in a borrowed tomb (Matthew 27:57-60).
The Lord Jesus Christ was no religious hypocrite. He always practiced what He preached and preached what He practiced. He was totally consistent in all of His ways. No legitimate fault could ever be found in Him. May His servants today become more and more like Him!
Taken from http://www.pbministries.org/articles/kohler/kohler_02.htm
Jesus is God with us.
peace
c20