Kim Jong Il dies at 69

[cosmictraveler]

I ain't going to work on Maggies farm no more! Cattle have but one use, people have many and are able to aquire many more through education at quality institutions. The problems today is that we have to many intellectuals that seem to know what everyone should be doing and telling them where they should go. Intellectuals throughout history have really only talked about the good of the people and how those people should be used. Intellectuals are always the ones who never do any real work but watch everyone else do their work and earn their keep telling them how they should live.

 

[James R]

It is mass hysteria. Caused by the experience of the end of an era.

Among those shown on state-controlled TV, at least.

 

[Michael]

I am quite happy to be cattle.
I just want more cattle cake.

By cattle cake I assume you mean cow pie??? What do you want with it?

 

[Captain Kremmen]

No, I mean Ground nut Oil Cattle Cake.
It's Delicious. Moooooo!

 

[gendanken]

captain:

Boo. £10 wasted.
It doesn't mention Bells at all.

Interesting.

Paragraph 3, sentence 2 states "In recent developments, Gendanken forks Bells to the Wall"

Now answer the question, Beevis. Or are you one of those tl;dr fuckers?

Michael:

Interesting question. On the face of it, it would seem you have my position juxtapose. It's the Farmer who farms, not the produce (meat or fruit). That said, one does wonder if the homely fig isn't gaining some benefit from the farmers labor. That said, usually the farm hired cattle (us) to do the actual farming. Very complex situation we have here.

There is archeological evidence the fig forced men to settle from wandering years before the agriculture of wheat.

If you think about it, plants have tamed humans. Not the other way around.

James R

Among those shown on state-controlled TV, at least.

Precisely.

A slave fattened on propaganda, statism, and the chance to be considered 'elite' is the least likely to need any type of coercion in mourning his master.

That's what we've been trying to beat into that woman's skull.

 

[kira]

North Koreans don't live normal life since many decades, so it isn't surprising if they react rather abnormal. To understand fully a culture, you have to live or interact with them.

I have experienced living under a military dictatorship (until 1998 under the Soeharto regime), although the military action was more subtle than that in NK. Back then, nothing was normal. For example, when I was about to exercise my first voting right (in election), I was called to my father's office by one of the political party (the winning party), together with all other family members of my fathers' colleagues. As a government employee, my father, all other government employees, and all of their family members were obliged to vote for that party. It isn't written anywhere, but everybody knows, if we didn't vote for them, our family will lose their job. So, I voted for the ruling party. Btw, I and everyone else got money in envelopes after we attended the obligatory political "seminar".

Years after the fall of his regime and after his death, Soeharto is still "worshipped" by older generation as "Bapak Pembangunan (Father of Development)", the "Smiling General", etc. Back then, every home, office, classroom, etc had his photo hanged on the wall. Whenever he went, all streets were made new. When he gave speech, all TVs only displayed his speech. And every the 30th of September, all TV channels would only play his heroic action in the 1965 military Coup d'état. Everyone tried their best not to be in a "black list", even if that means we should react abnormal :shrug: A big part of the society, though, truly love him, because under his dictatorship, life was "peaceful" and predictable (business atmosphere was always stable, because everybody knew who would win the next election, etc). As soon as Soeharto left, Timor Leste freed itself, here and there are religious civil wars, people made demonstration over small things, etc.

I prefer democracy any day, though!

 

[Captain Kremmen]

There is archeological evidence the fig forced men to settle from wandering years before the agriculture of wheat.

And it also forced men to invent the toilet plunger.
Re book. Read it from cover to cover, but I don't understand German.

 

[GeoffP]

Figgy bastards. Laughing in their rows, they are. Shouldn't be allowed.

 

[gendanken]

kremmen:

Re book. Read it from cover to cover, but I don't understand German.

I specifically love this part, according to Bells, she who extrapolates facts from her gut and her uterus:

Ah yes, Gendy the great intellect. Who craves suffering so she can write about it and publish it on amazon.

Ssnoooooooooooooooooort!!
Gendanken, that naughty misanthrope sprinkling pubes in your Corn Flakes, craves suffering?


Now answer the question regarding the old hag in the wheelchair calling the black man a 'nigger'.


Kira:

North Koreans don't live normal life since many decades, so it isn't surprising if they react rather abnormal. To understand fully a culture, you have to live or interact with them.

Beautiful.

Be so kind as to relay this message to Bells, who's been here feeling her way into creating the 'fact' that these people were in fear of the gulag or getting beheaded for not crying like imbeciles.

You mention your family being pressured into voting for the party. The fear was being demoted or the loss of prestige-- the same occupational fears an American nurse or an Australian "lawyer" harbors in relation to criticizing his boss or company policy.

You also mention that years after his death, people worship this "Bapak Pembangunan" because of the predictably he ensured them.

This is what people like Bells, who've never experienced oppression like you have and with the temerity to accuse everyone else in here of their "Americanisms", (idiot), don't factor into their pathetic attempts to define human behavior.

Also, I understand Asians, a different culture, express themselves differently.

Is this correct, Kira?

 

[Bells]

A slave fattened on propaganda, statism, and the chance to be considered 'elite' is the least likely to need any type of coercion in mourning his master.

That's what we've been trying to beat into that woman's skull.

Among countless mourners at a public square in North Korea, the kneeling middle-aged man in an off-white windbreaker stands out. The state broadcaster’s camera zooms in as he wails, rocking back and forth with clenched fists, his grief punctuated by the white puffs of his breath visible in the cold of the capital, Pyongyang.

The camera lingers a few seconds too long on this perfect mourner. A couple of rows away, two teenage boys stand motionless, seemingly uncertain about how to behave. They look toward the man — perhaps even at the camera beyond him — then briefly away, before also dropping to their knees to weep.

________________________________________________

As such, the public expressions of grief are not so much an assessment of Kim Jong-il’s stewardship over North Korea — his failings have become increasingly known to North Koreans in recent years, especially to the privileged class of citizens shown in the videos and photographs released in the past two days. Rather, they are in some ways, at least, the expected way to mourn the passing of a father; not hewing to this tradition would invite social or state opprobrium, as the two teenage boys in the videos seemed to grasp instinctively.

________________________________________________

When Kim Jong-un made his public debut last year, he was prepared so that he would look just like his grandfather. He was overweight. He wore his hair slicked back. He clapped his hands at party meetings and received kowtowing generals older than his father with a casual gravitas North Koreans identified with his grandfather.

“He was such a spitting image of his grandfather that when he first appeared on TV, many North Koreans broke into tears, hailing him as the second coming of Kim Il-sung,” said a South Korean intelligence official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the news media.

The campaign continued Tuesday. At the Pyongyang National Theater, actors and actresses were photographed crying, effectively instructing the nation how to behave. The public grief had a goal, as the actors and actresses made clear as they urged the nation to “turn sadness into strength and courage.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/21/world/asia/north-korean-mourning-blends-emotion-and-coercion.html?_r=1

And as I pointed out earlier, social conditioning has a lot to answer for. Do you think the farmers are crying just as violently? They are not being shown at all, are they? As real as it might be to those in the footage being beamed to us from North Korea, the underlying message remains the same..

Yet North Koreans have little choice but to join in the highly-choreographed propaganda.

"The North Koreans know that it is in their own interest to be perceived as being emotionally distraught about the death of Kim Jong Il, and so they do what is expected of them," says Donald Gregg , a former U.S. Ambassador to South Korea. "Their own, natural emotionalism makes it easier for them to perform."

A North Korean defector and former official has described the chilling scrutiny of people's response to the death of Kim Il Sung, Kim Jong Il's father and the founder of North Korea, in 1994.

"The party conducted surveys to see who displayed the most grief, and made this an important criterion in assessing party members' loyalty," wrote the late Hwang Jang Yop. "Patients who remained in hospitals and people who drank and made merry even after hearing news of their leader's death were all singled out for punishment."

http://news.yahoo.com/north-korean-mourning-may-real-matter-survival-too-224509678.html

And that is what you cannot get through your thick skull. That no matter how genuine their tears might be, how they have been brought up and yes, brainwashed and threatened into considering him to be godlike and so they cry like lunatics when he died, the underlying fear remains. If they do not cry, if they do not show enough emotion, then it can be to their and their family's detriment. They would have seen it when Kim Il Sung died in 1994. The State even provides them with actors to make sure they know what is expected of them. They are conditioned to do as they are told. Because they know if they do not, it will be to their detriment.

Do you understand now?

Also, I understand Asians, a different culture, express themselves differently.

Well duh. Finally.. You have moved on from Latino TV. Do you not read links provided to you?

Ssnoooooooooooooooooort!!
Gendanken, that naughty misanthrope sprinkling pubes in your Corn Flakes, craves suffering?

You mean you have some now? My! Lil' girl's all grown up.

You also mention that years after his death, people worship this "Bapak Pembangunan" because of the predictably he ensured them.

This is what people like Bells, who've never experienced oppression like you have and with the temerity to accuse everyone else in here of their "Americanisms", (idiot), don't factor into their pathetic attempts to define human behavior.

This is what you missed from her post:

It isn't written anywhere, but everybody knows, if we didn't vote for them, our family will lose their job. So, I voted for the ruling party. Btw, I and everyone else got money in envelopes after we attended the obligatory political "seminar".

__________________________________________

Everyone tried their best not to be in a "black list", even if that means we should react abnormal

Why don't you ask her how many who didn't vote for Suharto or those who voiced dissent were jailed or made to simply disappear?

Fear is a great motivator Gendy. Kira kind of made my point, which you seem to have missed.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

If Bells is the woman in the wheelchair who is the black people?
And what does the hosepipe represent?

 

[Gustav]

A slave fattened on propaganda, statism, and the chance to be considered 'elite' is the least likely to need any type of coercion in mourning his master..

that and this....

It isn't written anywhere, but everybody knows, if we didn't vote for them, our family will lose their job. So, I voted for the ruling party. Btw, I and everyone else got money in envelopes after we attended the obligatory political "seminar".

Everyone tried their best not to be in a "black list", even if that means we should react abnormal

is explained away by....

You mention your family being pressured into voting for the party. The fear was being demoted or the loss of prestige-- the same occupational fears an American nurse or an Australian "lawyer" harbors in relation to criticizing his boss or company policy.

..an idiotic strawman

This is what you missed from her post:

yeah
kira makes your point. take away the coercion and implicit violence and there is nothing to stop the masses from protesting. to make out they are mindless sheeple simply has no basis in scientific fact

occupy pyongyang

Also, I understand Asians, a different culture, express themselves differently.

yes darling
confucius says.....

This study tested present day Korean and US American communication. Overall, it appears that despite widespread global influences, cultural values such as Confucianism, low-/high-context communication, independent/interdependent selves, and uncertainty avoidance impact on Korean and US communication. American communication has remained fairly constant for the communication traits tested in this study. Thus, even though global forces appear to be strong, so are traditions. While this study tested US Americans, the primary focus was on Korean communication which seemed more likely to change, given this country’s changing status as a global trading partner.

In particular, H1 and H2 results show that Hall’s high-low context schema still applies to Korean and US communication. Similar to past results, US Americans were reported as being more direct and Koreans were reported as being more indirect. The Confucian values of harmony, not sticking out, and preserving others’ face by not taking a stand appears to be reflected in the finding, substantiating H3, that Koreans are more communicatively apprehensive than their US American counterparts. Thus, Korean traditions still appear to be operating despite widespread exposure to people and popular culture professing non-Confucian values.

Another side of the culture clash between the Korean Confucian value of not-sticking-out and the US practice of touching and public display of emotions is the stoic controlling of emotions that still appears to be practiced by Koreans. H4, that US Americans will be more nonverbally immediate than Koreans still appears to be the case, and the cultural implications are many. This is because the possibility of misunderstanding communicated on the nonverbal level is on the one hand, more subtle, yet, on the other hand, more intense. People experiencing nonverbal messages cannot necessarily figure out what is bothering them about the other. Unwanted touching, for example, can be perceived as a major violation by people when it implies a lowering of their status.

Finally, H5, that Koreans are more likely to use verbal aggression than their US American counterparts was not significant. Perhaps follow-up interview questions could help identify precisely what patterns of thinking Koreans and US Americans are employing when they are considering using aggressive communication.​

...all that which makes the weeping and wailing on the part of the nk "subhumans" an anomaly easily explained away by occam as an eminently practical consideration rather than woo woorisms like mind control

 

[invert_nexus]

I'm on my phone again with no time to post, but I'm confused as to why an argument still exists in this thread. Well, from Bells anyway. Gustav denies the existence of brainwashing which demands further discussion I'll get back to when I can, but Bells has explicitly stated that some if not most of those people in the videos are brainwashed (although on further thought, I beleive a framework of terminology need be outlined and will get back to later) and thus are legitimately grieving for someone that they consider to be a great man.

So.
Why all the hubbub, bub?

As to the farmers, why hold them out as the great haters?
It's not possible that any of them fell victim to prpaganda? Why not?

Just because you have no video to prove otherwise?

I bet all the merpeople are also hating on that faggot, too.
Prove me wrong.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

I bet all the merpeople are also hating on that faggot, too.
Prove me wrong.

Merpeople?

What have they got to do with it?

 

[Gustav]

I beleive a framework of terminology need be outlined

sure
we shall amuse ourselves with the walmart cheer till you get back

 

[Captain Kremmen]

The Walmart Cheer.
God help you if you don't cheer and smile to the Company standard.

That manager was fatter than Kim Jong II
Maybe he is the son of the previous manager.

North Korean Branch of Walmart misses Weekly Sales Target.

 

[CptBork]

You gotta admit, compared to other members of the Kim dynasty, he's pretty handsome for his age.

 

[gendanken]

Fear is a great motivator Gendy. Kira kind of made my point, which you seem to have missed.

Why is this dumb bitch still even talking in here?

No shit, you fucking moron, you don't even have to roll your fat mind that far to find it.
page 4

Genanken: Represents beautifully the anesthetic effects of communion: a burlesque of fear socially engineered to simulate a non-threatening distortion of slave morality.

page 2

Gendanken: Starved, beaten, abused they still show up in drones to validate a tyrant's existence and why?

"Fear is a great motivator", like, DUH? I never said-- nor believe-- civility is even feasible without fear: it transcends pain,hunger, lust, love and rage.

Ask women.

We're not deconstructing the nature of fear but ogling your atrocious reading skills and the fact that when you were first asked to substantiate your position, all you had was speculation, then squirmed as other people lectured you on what brainwashing even is, irregardless of what Gustav has to say about it.

You don't read other people in here.
You don't even read what you palaver about others not reading:

Jezebells:

This is what you missed from her post:

“
Originally Posted by Kira
It isn't written anywhere, but everybody knows, if we didn't vote for them, our family will lose their job. So, I voted for the ruling party. Btw, I and everyone else got money in envelopes after we attended the obligatory political "seminar".

When Gendanken actually wrote:

You mention your family being pressured into voting for the party. The fear was being demoted or the loss of prestige-- the same occupational fears an American nurse or an Australian "lawyer" harbors in relation to criticizing his boss or company policy.

Stupid clit.

Well duh. Finally.. You have moved on from Latino TV. Do you not read links provided to you?

Actually, I'm still gawking at "La Calva" which comes before "Mentirosa" and "La Vaca Abocagada" (cackle), but on the subject of reading links, do you?:

So far, other Korea experts have reacted favorably to Myers's book. While all agree it's impossible to know exactly what's going on in the country, Myers's painstaking research provides a key to unlocking the ever-elusive North Korean mindset.

Quick--who posted the link and what is the purported Korean perception?

You bastardize even people on Sciforums: how the hell would you know you are happier than I am or have more than I do?
Come on, chicky, tell us how you could ever possibly know, outside of those curly hysterics you idiot females take for thinking, anything about people you don't?

Nexus:

So.
Why all the hubbub, bub?

The nature of what Bill Cosby called J-e-l-l-o.

The Dramatica wrote it best: "Stupid people don't scroll up"

..an idiotic strawman

Is that so?

Ask an American to fake cry; then ask a Korean and then a Latino.

Then force all three plebs to start laughing.

 

[gendanken]

Captain Kremmen:

If Bells is the woman in the wheelchair who is the black people?
And what does the hosepipe represent?

Me, other forumers, and my gigantic cock respectively.

Kidding.
Me, other forumers, and according Bells the same treatment she shows others.
I believe Wynn has a thread addressing the 'innocence' of those stricken with tragedy or disease.

So who are you referring to as a 'poor woman'?

 

[quadraphonics]

you just project some quackery on to the n.koreans and go on to infantalize and dehumanize them in the process.

Describing the operation of a system that infantilizes and dehumanizes its subjects, is not the same thing as actually infantilizing or dehumanizing them.

you want us to believe that n.koreans today, faced with deprivation and hardship actually buy into the propaganda because they are "brainwashed".

That isn't what I said.

Why is it that your responses to me consist mostly of prejudicial misphrasings of things I've said? This is a hallmark of the troll. If you want people to take you seriously, you should be focussing more on representing your own point of view, rather than misrepresenting mine.

funny how this woo theory of the n.korean mind when actually played out by defectors no longer subject to the tools of repression can be shed as easily as a summer tan

Did I suggest somewhere that the operation of the system does not depend directly on the continued presence of the tools of repression? Because I'm pretty sure that I explicitly said the opposite.

There is also the reasonable expectation that defectors - by definition, people willing to risk tremendous punishments in order to escape - will be skewed towards the less susceptible segments of the population. You wouldn't really expect anyone who is actually "brainwashed" to even attempt to defect, now would you?

Also, when did you come around to this position that propaganda isn't basically effective?

a contradictory word salad
"understanding and relating" is conceptually opposed to "belief"

Only if you play your usual asinine troll game of stripping out relevant context. The object of "belief" was the literal contents of the propaganda. The object of "understanding and relating" was the larger world. The point isn't that people believe the fantastical lies about the Dear Leader's incredible golf skills or magical powers. It's that they are deprived of alternative frameworks for relating to society, state, nationality, and the larger world. Even if you recognize the bullshit, the larger system is part of your identity, and so doublethink kicks in pretty strongly. This is the basic reason that the Kim dynasty goes to such lengths to restrict access to outside information.

i see. would you then agree that educating humans in their formative years is better characterized as "brainwashing"?

I've long thought that various forms of indoctrination commonly imposed upon young people (nationalist, political, and especially religious) constitute brainwashing, yes. I have lost friends over my insistence that the Pledge of Allegiance and Sunday School, in particular, are objectionable forms of brainwashing.

But not all education is indoctrination, and the fact that reconfiguration of internal values and constructs is a necessary feature of brainwashing does not mean that such is sufficient to qualify as such. There is more to the definition of "brainwashing" than that, specifically aspects of unethical manipulation and detrimental effects upon those subjected to it. Regular old liberal education, and consensual persuasion, also result in reconfiguration of internal values and constructs, when undertaken successfully. Are you really so obtuse as to need this pointed out to you, or am I guily of feeding the troll here?