Long Term Antibodies-Covid-19?

KUMAR5 said:
Yes but Immunological memory will also activate on reinfection or on antigen presentation. But in case of tracing of antibodues for say 8 months is not as a result if reinfection or sntigen oresentation due to reinfection. So how this long rerm antibody can exist without reinfection or antigen presentation?
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Antibodies can be produced by bone marrow plasma cells, which in some cases will keep producing antibodies for decades. This usually occurs after a severe infection.

Are you asking how cells can live that long? The cells in your heart's muscle tissue can live 40 years.
 
billvon said:
Antibodies can be produced by bone marrow plasma cells, which in some cases will keep producing antibodies for decades. This usually occurs after a severe infection.

Are you asking how cells can live that long? The cells in your heart's muscle tissue can live 40 years.
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I know few cells of our body can live long. I am not doubting it. I am doubting, how these long kived cells go on producing antibodies without antigens? Antigens should not be there after infection is cured or after some time of vaccinatioj.
 
There was a quote by Tiassa in my other topic in which some big scientist indicated that Omicron may exaggerate chronic illnesses. I was checking, can long term antibodues also have some role in it?
Post infection these factors are exposed. Infection, disease, medication, immune responses, damages and complications due to disease and due to immune response and long term antibodies. Post vaccination, long term antibodues are only exoised. So what out of these can contribute to long Covid and to exaggeration of chronic illnesses need to be better understood.
 
billvon said:
Google "immunologic memory."
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Sorry when I posted it in my opening post, it should suggest I must be knoeing about it. It should be alike fixed deposit or potential energy not cash in hand or current account or kinetic energy Not so?
 
Immunological memory is the ability of the immune system to quickly and specifically recognize an antigen that the body has previously encountered and initiate a corresponding immune response. Generally these are secondary, tertiary and other subsequent immune responses to the same ahttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunological_memory#:~:text=Immunological%20memory%20is%20the%20ability,responses%20to%20the%20same%20antigen.ntigen.

Above link sugfests that immunological memory quucklyand specifically recognize an antigen that the body has previously encountered and initiate a corresponding immune response. It means same sntigen on reinfection or otherwise is needed to stimulate immunological memory respinse. Therefore I just want to know which is this antigen,?
 
KUMAR5 said:
Therefore I just want to know which is this antigen,?
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The antibody is produced by a white blood cell called a B lymphocyte, based on the foreign antigen. Compared to potential energy, or future financial entitlement, I would suggest computer code is a better analogy.

Still, a better explanation than I can manage comes from Molecular Biology of the Cell (2002)↱:

Each B cell produces a single species of antibody, each with a unique antigen-binding site. When a naïve or memory B cell is activated by antigen (with the aid of a helper T cell), it proliferates and differentiates into an antibody-secreting effector cell. Such cells make and secrete large amounts of soluble (rather than membrane-bound) antibody, which has the same unique antigen-binding site as the cell-surface antibody that served earlier as the antigen receptor …. Effector B cells can begin secreting antibody while they are still small lymphocytes, but the end stage of their maturation pathway is a large plasma cell … which continuously secretes antibodies at the astonishing rate of about 2000 molecules per second. Plasma cells seem to have committed so much of their protein-synthesizing machinery to making antibody that they are incapable of further growth and division. Although many die after several days, some survive in the bone marrow for months or years and continue to secrete antibodies into the blood.​

That's the textbook version. Epigenetic regulation of B-cells is a bit more specific. Like, third sentence of the abstract for a paper on epigenetics in immunology and I am at my discursive limit, specific. I could not begin to properly describe immune signaling cues in the context of transcriptional and epigenetic programs, for instance, but the computer code analogy will work somewhere inside that, toward explaining how the body learns and remembers any particular pathogen.
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Notes:

Alberts, Bruce, et al. "B Cells and Antibodies". Molecular Biology of the Cell, 4th ed. 2002. NCBI.NLM.NIH.gov. 19 February 2022. https://bit.ly/354tUOR


Correction: A typographical error and incomplete sentence in the first paragraph have been fixed, because the original expression was just that bad.
 
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Tiassa said:
The antigen is produced by a white blood cell called a B lymphocyte. Compared to potential energy, or future financial entitlement, I would suggest computer code is a better analogy.

Still, a better explanation than I can manage comes from Molecular Biology of the Cell (2002)↱:

Each B cell produces a single species of antibody, each with a unique antigen-binding site. When a naïve or memory B cell is activated by antigen (with the aid of a helper T cell), it proliferates and differentiates into an antibody-secreting effector cell. Such cells make and secrete large amounts of soluble (rather than membrane-bound) antibody, which has the same unique antigen-binding site as the cell-surface antibody that served earlier as the antigen receptor …. Effector B cells can begin secreting antibody while they are still small lymph​
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Thanks. However above suggest " when a naive or B cell is activated by antigen" than only it can start secreting large smount of sntibodies. My wuestion is, from where this antigen come which stimulate such long term antibody secration?
 
KUMAR5 said:
It means same sntigen on reinfection or otherwise is needed to stimulate immunological memory respinse.
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Nope. It means it remembers the antigen. That's how it continues to make antibodies. That's how it recognizes new infections. Because it remembers the antigen.
 
billvon said:
Nope. It means it remembers the antigen. That's how it continues to make antibodies. That's how it recognizes new infections. Because it remembers the antigen.
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Yes it remember the sntigen. It is ehat immunological memory is meant so that if same antigen come sgain say on reinfection such immune response and antibody production dtart quickly. As hapoened in primary covid infection or vaccinatiojn, such immune response take sone time about 10 to 15 days due to which infection is spread. But when immunolological memory us acwuired, such immune response start immediately so that infection is not soread and we are saved. But this secondary response after imm memory is developed need fresh Antigen due to reinfection or otherwise. I just want to understand this otherwise. Pls read immunological memory carefully.
However there can be one possibility. During pademic or epidemic low viral load or on vaccination, some antigen renain alwsys exposed to such immune system resulting into long term antibodies. This can be a basis to get herd immunity. But still, in this case also, secondary antigenic exposure will be there.
 
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KUMAR5 said:
My wuestion is, from where this antigen come which stimulate such long term antibody secration?
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Well, I did hand you the textbook. To start with the preceding paragraph in the section:

The first antibodies made by a newly formed B cell are not secreted. Instead, they are inserted into the plasma membrane, where they serve as receptors for antigen. Each B cell has approximately 10⁵ such receptors in its plasma membrane. As we discuss later, each of these receptors is stably associated with a complex of transmembrane proteins that activate intracellular signaling pathways when antigen binds to the receptor.

(Alberts, et al.↱)​

An antigen in this case is defined generally as a "molecule that is able to provoke an immune response". Insofar as you might ask whence comes that molecule, observe that the "first antibodies made by a newly formed B Cell … serve as receptors for antigen". More particular discussion of how this works makes clear the antigen is considered a foreign molecule:

IgM, which has μ heavy chains, is always the first class of antibody made by a developing B cell, although many B cells eventually switch to making other classes of antibody (discussed below). The immediate precursor of a B cell, called a pre-B cell, initially makes μ chains, which associate with so-called surrogate light chains (substituting for genuine light chains) and insert into the plasma membrane. The complexes of μ chains and surrogate light chains are required for the cell to progress to the next stage of development, where it makes bona fide light chains. The light chains combine with the μ chains, replacing the surrogate light chains, to form four-chain IgM molecules (each with two μ chains and two light chains). These molecules then insert into the plasma membrane, where they function as receptors for antigen. At this point, the cell is called an immature naïve B cell. After leaving the bone marrow, the cell starts to produce cell-surface IgD molecules as well, with the same antigen-binding site as the IgM molecules. It is now called a mature naïve B cell. It is this cell that can respond to foreign antigen in peripheral lymphoid organs.​
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Notes:

Alberts, Bruce, et al. "B Cells and Antibodies". Molecular Biology of the Cell, 4th ed. 2002. NCBI.NLM.NIH.gov. 19 February 2022. https://bit.ly/354tUOR
 
Tiassa said:
Well, I did hand you the textbook. To start with the preceding paragraph in the section:
...
​
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Thanks again. It tells about primary immune response in detail when IgM and IgG antibodies are developed. Probably, it also tell about development of immunological memory when B cells are fully matured and stay for long in bidy to immediate antibody secretion if same antigen strike again to these i.e. by reinfection. But sorry, my question still remain unattended. Ehat is, the antigen for the secondary immune response? Simply long term antibodues should suggest that some antigen either persis in bidy for long term or infect body again. Such persistsnce of antigen post infection cure or post vaccination for long term, I only want to understand.
In many virus infections, virus also become dormat or latent. Yhis also serve as a basis of creating antigens for long term snd for long term antibodies. But it is not anticipated in Covid 19 infection.
 
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Btw, are you suggesting that long term antibodies can be produced and secrated in body without exposure of antigens to B cells?
 
KUMAR5 said:
… the antigen for the secondary immune response? Simply long term antibodies should suggest that some antigen either persist in body for long term or infect body again.
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Again, an answer appears to be in the textbook, and already cited; plasma cells in bone marrow: "Although many die after several days, some survive in the bone marrow for months or years and continue to secrete antibodies into the blood."

Beyond that, like I said, computer code¹ is probably the analogy you're looking for. Your body retains information on prior antigen, and the B cells involved with that information are called memory cells.

Ratajczak, et al. (2018)↱ observe, "evidence of immunological memory has been established for NK cells … which results in generation of antigen-specific antibodies." That's in the abstract. In the introduction, the authors note the secondary immune respnose "is quicker and stronger" than the primary response. And from the detail² on memory B lymphocytes:

Bm lymphocytes are cells involved in the secondary innate humoral immune response. They also, like other B cells, produce antibodies after the first exposure with an antigen and then produce large amounts of antibodies shortly after another exposure to the same antigen. The secondary innate humoral immune response, upon the second exposure to the antigen, relies on quick production of antibodies with changed isotypes, with high affinity of BCR (B cells receptor) to the antigen. Memory B cells can be formed in two T cell-dependent mechanisms: in the first, they differentiate into short-lived plasma cells and in the second, they are formed and differentiate in dependent or independent germinal centers of peripheral lymphoid organs. In these secondary lymphoid organs, once B and T cells have migrated, together with DC, the presentation of an antigen takes place.​
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Notes:

¹ To get ahead of the question about the code itself, the answer is in the textbook: The information is encoded in polypeptide chains.

² It took longer to find those sentences in the paper from the Central European Journal of Immunology than it did to find the paper, "Immunological memory cells", itself. That is, I asked the search engine for results pertaining to the words, memory cells antigen, and this was literally the top result, available for reading from the National Institutes of Health.​

Alberts, Bruce, et al. "B Cells and Antibodies". Molecular Biology of the Cell, 4th ed. 2002. NCBI.NLM.NIH.gov. 22 February 2022. https://bit.ly/354tUOR

Ratajczak, Weronika, Paulina Niedźwiedzka-Rystwej, Beata Tokarz-Deptuła, and Wiesław Deptuła. "Immunological memory cells". Central European Journal of Immunology, 43(2). 2018. NCBI.NLM.NIH.gov. 22 February 2022. https://bit.ly/3sbCZP9
 
KUMAR5 said:
Btw, are you suggesting that long term antibodies can be produced and secrated in body without exposure of antigens to B cells?
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Let me use an analogy here; see if you understand it.

Let's say you hear the song "jingle bells." You hear it a few times, then sing it. You can do this because you now have a memory of it and can repeat it.

In a week, if someone asks you to sing it again, do you need to be exposed to it again before you can sing it? Or do you remember it?
 
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