Malaysia imposes dress code for non-muslims, THE FRENCH WAY

[everneo]

In the light of the above hadith,it shows that the evidence of a *single* person, the female victim, can be sufficient to convict someone of rape according to the teachings of the Messenger of Allah (s.a.w.)

What would have been the procedure if that man did not confess that he indeed raped her.?

 

[Proud_Muslim]

What would have been the procedure if that man did not confess that he indeed raped her.?

I would think there will be no sentence until everyone is sure who did it.

the main issue of this hadith is that woman testimony is ENOUGH to indict the rapist.

 

[Bells]

PM, I don't believe that the Western ideology is better than Islamic ideology. Both have their good and bad sides. No system of Government or ideology is perfect. And as for the question about the Taliban type of Government, it was a simple question and the issue of giving up the TV etc came under that question. I just wanted to ask you that question hypothetically. I do not think that all Islamic States are like the Taliban. And I agree with you, the Taliban were a bunch of religous zealots who did not know the true meaning of Islam.

The question about the Sharia law and rape was asked because in the States which have Sharia law, a woman must have 4 witnesses to a rape before the rapist can be charged and convicted. Nigeria is a prime example. Nigeria's Sharia Courts require that there be 4 muslim male witnesses to the rape. And if there are no witnesses (and there never are as no man rapes in front of a crowd), the woman is then liable to be charged with adultery and the sentence is usually death by stoning in public or a public lashing. The man also faces death if he admits to the rape so of course he will refuse the account of rape and instead blame the woman and state that it was in fact adultery. So the courts demand 4 muslim male witnesses. If you want to check up on this PM just do a search on rape and sharia law in Nigeria.

 

[Flores]

Proud_Muslim:

The statistics on rape you published are misleading in more ways than one, it seems.

Even if we accept the figures, the US does not come in at number 1, because you didn't give the <b>per capita</b> figures for the incidence of rape. You gave raw numbers. The list reads as follows when you look at rapes per 1000 people:

1. South Africa 1.21 per 1000 people
2. Montserrat 0.83 per 1000 people
3. Australia 0.8 per 1000 people
4. Seychelles 0.8 per 1000 people
5. Canada 0.75 per 1000 people
6. Zimbabwe 0.49 per 1000 people
7. Jamaica 0.49 per 1000 people
8. Dominica 0.34 per 1000 people
9. United States 0.32 per 1000 people

The US comes in at number 9 on this scale. That's still bad, right? BUT WAIT! What's this note at the bottom of the statistics, which you so conveniently ignored? It says:

[size=+1]"Crime statistics are often better indicators of prevalence of law enforcement and willingness to report crime, than actual prevalance."[/size]

This confirms what I've been saying all along.
.

Thank you James for taking the time to clarify. Perhaps you should use more basic arguments with PMS so he may understand. Sort of things I use with my daughter. You can tell him for example, that it's statistically wrong to compare apples and oranges....We must find a common denominator between the two to base the comparison on. And that the reason we must use the per capita. I think he forgets that America is a CONTINENT and Syria is a tiny speckle...How can he be willing to compare the statistics of a continent with the statistics of a country that is smaller than Vermont? If he wishes to use another criteria beside the per capita, he can use per square mile and then USA would go all the way down in the list.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

The question about the Sharia law and rape was asked because in the States which have Sharia law, a woman must have 4 witnesses to a rape before the rapist can be charged and convicted.

I think you are mixing adultry with rape.

and since your brought up Nigeria as prime example, did you know what happen to Amina lawal, the woman who was about to be stoned to death for adultry ?????????

the answer will STUNN you:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/3137890.stm

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Thank you James for taking the time to clarify. Perhaps you should use more basic arguments with PMS so he may understand. Sort of things I use with my daughter. You can tell him for example, that it's statistically wrong to compare apples and oranges....We must find a common denominator between the two to base the comparison on. And that the reason we must use the per capita. I think he forgets that America is a CONTINENT and Syria is a tiny speckle...How can he be willing to compare the statistics of a continent with the statistics of a country that is smaller than Vermont? If he wishes to use another criteria beside the per capita, he can use per square mile and then USA would go all the way down in the list.

You are only mocking yourself Flores:

Map & Graph: Crime: Top 100 Rapes

Country Description Amount
1. United States 89,110 (1999)
2. South Africa 53,008 (2000)
3. Canada 24,049 (2000)
4. Australia 15,630 (2000)
5. India 15,468 (1999)
6. Mexico 13,061 (2000)
7. United Kingdom 8,593 (2000)
8. France 8,458 (2000)
9. Germany 7,499 (2000)
10. Russia 6,978 (2000)
11. Korea, South 6,139 (2000)
12. Spain 5,664 (2000)
13. Zimbabwe 5,567 (2000)
14. Thailand 4,020 (2000)
15. Venezuela 2,931 (2000)
16. Poland 2,399 (2000)
17. Italy 2,336 (2000)
18. Japan 2,260 (2000)
19. Colombia 1861 (2000)
20. Netherlands 1648 (2000)

SOURCE: http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap

Seventh United Nations Survey of Crime Trends and Operations of Criminal Justice Systems, covering the period 1998 - 2000 (United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, Centre for International Crime Prevention)

As If I am making these statistics up !!

Flores, are you saying that those UN EXPERTS who produced these stats are stupid ??????????

Still, the real RAPE STATS in America is WORSE than the above, here is why:

For every 1 rape that IS reported, 10 are NOT reported.

Source: (Bureau of Justice Statistics Special Report:
Violence Against Women: Estimates from the Redesigned Survey (NCJ-154348), August 1995, p. 3.)

GO FIGURE !!

 

[Flores]

the main issue of this hadith is that woman testimony is ENOUGH to indict the rapist.

No, you are wrong, couple of issues with the Hadith.

The prophet made his ruling after the man HAVE INDICTED HIMSELF, not after the women have cried rapist. A confession in Islam is regarded as the highest proof...second proof is 4 WITTNESSES, not the woman's sole account.

Second issue is inconsistency with murder ruling. In the case of a murder, the victim families may overturn the death penality if they wish....Does the raped women get the chance to forgive her rapist just like the families of the murdered have a say in regards to the destiny of the killer? Perhaps the raped woman doesn't want the man stoned....why double her agony??

 

[everneo]

I would think there will be no sentence until everyone is sure who did it.

How can everyone be sure of who did it.? what is the mechanism employed to come to that conclusion if the alleged rapist feign innocence.? Any reasonable mechanism employed to establish his crime.?

the main issue of this hadith is that woman testimony is ENOUGH to indict the rapist.

In this hadith the rapist's confession sealed the case not the accusation of the woman alone.

Any woman who dares to finish you off no matter what happens to her can call you her rapist. What is the defence for innocents in that case in Islam.? Any reasonable defence is available to an innocent man accused of raping.?

 

[Proud_Muslim]

No, you are wrong, couple of issues with the Hadith.

The prophet made his ruling after the man HAVE INDICTED HIMSELF, not after the women have cried rapist. A confession in Islam is regarded as the highest proof...second proof is 4 WITTNESSES, not the woman's sole account.

The man confessed because he does not want the other man to be sentenced falsely.

no where in the quran or the AUTHENTIC hadith we find a requirment for 4 witnesses ??? where did you get that from ???

Second issue is inconsistency with murder ruling. In the case of a murder, the victim families may overturn the death penality if they wish....Does the raped women get the chance to forgive her rapist just like the families of the murdered have a say in regards to the destiny of the killer? Perhaps the raped woman doesn't want the man stoned....why double her agony??

I dont know about that, I have to ask about it.

 

[Flores]

You are only mocking yourself Flores:

Actually I feel sorry that you show absolutely no education and I hope you never join a research department in any country, because your bias is sickening. AMERICA is a freakin CONTINENT...you can't compare it to countries that are 1/10 it's size and completely different in demographics.

You are such an idiot and the stistics you show are the equivalent of:

Most amount of Sediments reporting:

The Nile River : 15000000tons
Piney Creek: 30 tons

Thus, PMS concludes that the Nile river is more polluted and he gets kicked out of the conference because everyone want to know the rate per litre and he REFUSES to report the rate, yet keeps crying bloody murder, but the NILE has more sediments so it must be dirtier.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

How can everyone be sure of who did it.? what is the mechanism employed to come to that conclusion if the alleged rapist feign innocence.? Any reasonable mechanism employed to establish his crime.?

perhaps this will help:

Islam recognizes that morality and ethics are the roots of every good society. Therefore, one finds abundance of social and spiritual traits in the fabric of Islam geared for producing a better social living. These traits, however, are not enough insurance against misconduct. Shari’ah, Islamic Law, is the body of rules used to govern a Muslim society and to control the behavior of its members to ensure its safety. Shari’ah is backed by the power of the state that enforces the law by means of appropriate penalties or remedies. In modern societies, authorized bodies, such as a legislature or a court create the law. While this is also true in Islam, however, the basic rules of Shari’ah are divine in nature.

Unlike Christianity, which came to birth under the Roman empire, where the social and political order were already established and Jesus and St. Paul had to mainly worry about the spiritual order, Muhammad, on the other hand, had to build up a society from point zero. Besides establishing the spiritual aspects, he had to erect the social and political aspects as well. Hence, the affairs of the state, the civil, social and political aspects of Muslims’ lives are considered as divine as the spiritual aspects. This makes obedience of the rule an act of worship that the individual will be rewarded for...read the whole article here:

http://www.islamic-study.org/punishment-body.htm

 

[Bells]

I think you are mixing adultry with rape.

Because I'm tired and can't even be bothered searching properly for this, I just did a quick search in the BBC from that link you supplied.

"What was particularly outrageous in the law was that a woman who reports she has been raped will be charged for slanderous accusation and flogged 80 lashes if she is unable to prove the rape," she says.

"Under the huddud law you have to produce four pious male Muslim eyewitnesses in order to prove illicit sex has taken place and it's impossible."

Therefore if the woman is claiming that she was raped, she must have 4 male witnesses. If she does not, then it is deemed that it was not rape but that she committed adultery.

Rape creates an especially difficult burden of proof for the victim. Shari'ah law only provides for punishment in cases of adultery, if both parties admit to have committed the "crime". If this is not the case, four independent witnesses have to be found; however, the witnesses must be male. In cases of rape, shari'ah rules that a rapist is to be punished with 100 lashes, if unmarried, or with death by stoning, if married, since this would then constitute adultery.

A pregnancy as a result of rape first of all counts as evidence of adultery committed by the woman. The rape victim then has to prove that she really was raped. In case the man - which is very likely - denies that he has raped the woman, the woman has to name four male witnesses to prove the rape. In case the woman does not find these four male witnesses - which again is very likely - she will be charged with slander.

And later on in this same article it went on to say this as well:

In April 2002 a stoning verdict was reported in south-western Pakistan. Apparently, Zafran Bibi who originally had accused her brother-in-law of rape, had been convinced by the police to admit that she had committed adultery. In order to prove the rape, four male witnesses would have been necessary as well. After protests from human rights groups, the supreme court of Pakistan allowed an appeal and ordered the temporary suspension of the execution in the beginning of May

Hope it helps. Theres a lot of information out there on this PM, and one simple search brings it all up.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Actually I feel sorry that you show absolutely no education and I hope you never join a research department in any country, because your bias is sickening. AMERICA is a freakin CONTINENT...you can't compare it to countries that are 1/10 it's size and completely different in demographics.
You are such an idiot and the stistics you show are the equivalent of:

Sister, why the name calling ? did I call you names ?? is that how you establish constructive debate ???

First, as I said, these are NOT my statistics, they are from the UN.

Second, why you dont look at RAPE PER CAPITA ?? you will find America in the first 10 in the world as well:

Map & Graph: Crime: Top 10 Rapes (per capita)
â Scroll down for more information â Show map full screen

Country Description Amount
1. South Africa 1.21 per 1000 people
2. Montserrat 0.83 per 1000 people
3. Australia 0.8 per 1000 people
4. Seychelles 0.8 per 1000 people
5. Canada 0.75 per 1000 people
6. Zimbabwe 0.49 per 1000 people
7. Jamaica 0.49 per 1000 people
8. Dominica 0.34 per 1000 people
9. United States 0.32 per 1000 people
10. Iceland 0.26 per 1000 people

Source: http://www.nationmaster.com/red/graph-T/cri_rap_cap&int=10

and if we remember that in America for EVERY ONE RAPE THAT IS REPORTED, 10 ARE NOT REPORTED, we will get very bleak picture indeed.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Because I'm tired and can't even be bothered searching properly for this, I just did a quick search in the BBC from that link you supplied.

Therefore if the woman is claiming that she was raped, she must have 4 male witnesses. If she does not, then it is deemed that it was not rape but that she committed adultery.

You see you are still mixing rape with adultry, as you said you are tired, go rest my dear.

And later on in this same article it went on to say this as well:

Hope it helps. Theres a lot of information out there on this PM, and one simple search brings it all up.

And now you are quoting from never heard of organization !! but hey, remember, not everything good for you is good for us.

 

[everneo]

perhaps this will help:

Islam recognizes that morality and ethics are the roots of every good society. Therefore, one finds abundance of social and spiritual traits in the fabric of Islam geared for producing a better social living. These traits, however, are not enough insurance against misconduct. Shari’ah, Islamic Law, is the body of rules used to govern a Muslim society and to control the behavior of its members to ensure its safety. Shari’ah is backed by the power of the state that enforces the law by means of appropriate penalties or remedies. In modern societies, authorized bodies, such as a legislature or a court create the law. While this is also true in Islam, however, the basic rules of Shari’ah are divine in nature.

Unlike Christianity, which came to birth under the Roman empire, where the social and political order were already established and Jesus and St. Paul had to mainly worry about the spiritual order, Muhammad, on the other hand, had to build up a society from point zero. Besides establishing the spiritual aspects, he had to erect the social and political aspects as well. Hence, the affairs of the state, the civil, social and political aspects of Muslims’ lives are considered as divine as the spiritual aspects. This makes obedience of the rule an act of worship that the individual will be rewarded for...read the whole article here:

http://www.islamic-study.org/punishment-body.htm

The link you gave describes judicial procedures and punishments for fornication, adultry. Can you provide sharia ruling in any rape case (other than the one where the prophet ordered stoning of the rapist)..?

 

[Bells]

You see you are still mixing rape with adultry, as you said you are tired, go rest my dear.

Ok don't make me cry lol.

PM, the articles are pointing out that UNLESS a woman can prove that she was raped, and to prove it she must have 4 muslim male witness who saw the rape happen and can verify her allegations, then under Sharia Law, it is deemed to be adultery. If the man refuses to admit that it is rape, and there are no witnesses, then Sharia Law deems it to have been adultery and disregard the woman's claims of rape. Even if the woman has been bashed and obviously raped, if there are no witnesses who number in 4 muslim males, then the courts see it as adultery. I may be tired and I may have had a day from hell, but I do know this much. Under Sharia Law, rape is non-existent unless there are 4 muslim male witnesses. Why are you denying this PM? Read up on your Sharia Law and this is what you'll find. If you refuse to even consider it then there's nothing more I can say. If you choose to remain blind then so be it.

 

[Bells]

And now you are quoting from never heard of organization !! but hey, remember, not everything good for you is good for us.

Err that organisation is the International Society for Human Rights.

And I'm not saying that all that is good for us is good for you. On the contrary if you wish to follow Sharia Law, then it should be your prerogative to do so. But if you do follow it or approve of it, you should not deny or refuse to admit what actually happens under its banner.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

Err that organisation is the International Society for Human Rights.

And I'm not saying that all that is good for us is good for you. On the contrary if you wish to follow Sharia Law, then it should be your prerogative to do so. But if you do follow it or approve of it, you should not deny or refuse to admit what actually happens under its banner.

And who is denying what happens under its banner ??

I am very proud of SHARIA LAW and I will fight all my life to establish it in the Muslim world, enough western man-made laws.

 

[Proud_Muslim]

The link you gave describes judicial procedures and punishments for fornication, adultry. Can you provide sharia ruling in any rape case (other than the one where the prophet ordered stoning of the rapist)..?

Try this one:

http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=388

 

[Bells]

And who is denying what happens under its banner ??

I am very proud of SHARIA LAW and I will fight all my life to establish it in the Muslim world, enough western man-made laws.

Good for you. But I'd suggest that you really study Sharia Law before you start to deny the plain facts which exist within it.