Missing years

Kiz,

Try this link –

http://www.objectivethought.com/atheism/iqstats.html

It shows a wide range of statistics taken at difference times throughout most of the past century.

Conclusion

The consensus here is clear: more intelligent people tend not to believe in religion. And this observation is given added force when you consider that the above studies span a broad range of time, subjects and methodologies, and yet arrive at the same conclusion.

A few random extracts –

9. Michael Argyle, 1958
Concluded that "although intelligent children grasp religious concepts earlier, they are also the first to doubt the truth of religion, and intelligent students are much less likely to accept orthodox beliefs."

1. Terman, 1959
Studied group with IQ's over 140. Of men, 10 percent held strong religious belief, of women 18 percent. Sixty-two percent of men and 57 percent of women claimed "little religious inclination" while 28 percent of the men and 23 percent of the women claimed it was "not at all important."

1. William S. Ament, 1927
C. C. Little, president of the University of Michigan, checked persons listed in Who's Who in America: "Unitarians, Episcopalians, Congregationalists, Universalists, and Presbyterians [who are less religious] are… far more numerous in Who's Who than would be expected on the basis of the population which they form. Baptists, Methodists, and Catholics are distinctly less numerous."

Ament confirmed Little's conclusion. He noted that Unitarians, the least religious, were more than 40 times as numerous in Who's Who as in the U.S. population.

According to Nature 394:313
A recent survey of members of the National Academy of Sciences showed that 72% are outright atheists, 21% are agnostic and only 7% admit to belief in a personal God.

According to the Skeptic magazine vol.6 #2 1998,
in multiple studies, there is a negative correlation between theism and morality. By Franzblau's 1934 study, there's a negative correlation between religiousity and honesty. Ross 1950 shows atheists and agnostics are more likely to express their willingness to help the poor than the deeply religious. 1969 Hirschi and Stark found no correlation in lawbreaking by churchgoing children and non-churchgoing children.

This same Skeptic published the results of another study that compared professions and likelihood of believing in God. The general public was just over 90% likely to believe in God. Scientists in general were just under 40% likely. Mathematicians were just over 40% likely, biologists just under 30%, and physicists were barely over 20% likely to believe in God.

Finale –

Why does this correlation exist? The first answer that comes to mind is that religious beliefs tend to be more illogical or incoherent than secular beliefs, and intelligent people tend to recognize that more quickly. But this explanation will surely be rejected by religious people, who will seek other explanations and rationalizations.

Hope that helps answer your question for some evidence.

Cris
 
Kiz,

I can respond with thousands of quotes refuting yours but the rules of these forums frown upon such tactcis. The result would be a battle between quoted experts, and there are many.

The real value of this site is in personal debate. If you have some quotes then simply provide a web link rather than the entire article. Take my example where the article was very lengthy, I gave the link and some sample extracts.

If you want the last word/quote then I don't care. But if you can use your own sense of reason to debate using your own words then I'll join in.

Cris
 
Candies!

I really shouldn't stick myself into this topic at this point, but what the heck?

Tiassa's Rules of Candies (Drugs)

• Anyone's welcome
• Tell me, please, when you pinch the box so I know when to call for more
• Leave me some, please

(My drug etiquette was severely challenged two years ago. I didn't mind people smoking my dope while I was out of town, but four grams disappeared and it looked like someone licked the box clean :bugeye: I don't ever want to submit my drug supply to sheer wartime capitalism, but people can make that difficult. Hence, these simple rules that I ask of people before they start stealing my candy ....)
I can't think why people become so well read on a subject that they apparently despise and hold no belief.
Click to expand...
The practical answer:

• I live in the United States of America
• In the U.S.A. we have something called "Freedom of Religion"
• Christians seem to despise this idea, despite the fact that most American versions of Christianity would be stomped out of existence without it.
• Sometimes, like we saw in the 1990s in Colorado and Oregon, Christians try to make the Bible into civil law.
• Furthermore, Christian political groups work toward what I perceive to be a detrimental goal.
• Because of the size and scale of Christianity and its ambitions, it has a direct impact on the lives of Americans who do not believe in it.
• Many of these effects are detrimental.
• I, by ethics and standards, exist among the population in the Christian crosshairs.
• Having been declared an enemy by Christians, I must understand my opponents better than they understand me.

The compassionate answer:

• We're all human beings. We're all in the same boat. I ought to know my shipmates. If I ask them why they're trying to sink the boat, I would hope to be able to understand the answer.

The visionary answer:

• Human beings are entitled to the best we can create in this world.
• Christianity is a target by circumstance.
• People deserve better than what Christianity has to offer.
• (The same goes for pure capitalism, patriotism, and other paradigms.)

In short:

• People have every reason to learn about something they're not. It helps them understand human diversity.
• By the reasoning of the issue at hand, I can't figure out why any person not inclined to hate Jews would ever want to study Adolf Hitler and German National Socialism.
• Christianity affects even those who do not subscribe to it. It seems almost like the old red-dye debate; on the one side was the food industry talking about industry-related dynamics such as cost and consumer demand. On the other side was a series of tests suggesting the possibility that red food dye contributed to cancer. In the end, we lived for several years without red M&M's as I recall.

For instance:

I just posted a topic about my frustrations with a Seventh-Day Adventist. Having kicked his daughter off to boarding school at age 14, after rejecting her for her nonconformity to Seventh-Day Adventism he is suddenly back in the picture because his daughter (my ... well, I guess girlfriend works, but I don't like it ...) is pregnant. He and his wife apparently want to be part of the child's spiritual upbringing, which is already determined (although they don't know it) to be anywhere but toward Christianity. This from a man who stripped and beat his daughter until she was 17 for punishment? This from a man whose best parenting course is to send a child away at 14 and never have her live under your roof again?

Regardless of my indignant frustration, it would be advisable to me to make sure I understand his twisted vocabulary when we finally sit down to talk about it.

Especially at this time, when I see a human life, a whole person's life, hanging in the balance.

I spent 13 years being indoctrinated as a Lutheran. I spent 3 years at a Catholic school. I have sympathies toward the Society of Friends, and attended Baptists, Episcopals, and "Community Church" congregations. I have 16 years of distancing myself from Christianity by learning about it. Even without all of this, I would still be compelled by circumstance to learn about Christianity.

After all, my daughter is worth it.

But there's a short list for you.

Oh, as to the topic:

• Personally, I think that Jesus spent the intervening 18 years sinning it up. After all, he seems quite chummy with the tax collectors, the prostitutes, and the underbelly of society. His compassion might actually come from common experience. There is a strange but proper assertion out there, for instance, that Jesus was gay. That point, thoguh, exploits a certain amount of rhetoric unnecessary to our current position. But some Christians hold that in his crucifixion and death, Jesus experienced the weight of all sins (including sodomy, hence the gay assertion). But is it possible that, during those 18 years, Jesus spent much time among the poor and wretched? When I turned 21 I spent the year in a T&A bar drinking heavily. Sure it was a thrill, but after a while, you start to feel a certain compassion. Yes, the dancers were bitches, but so would I be if my only known value in the world was satisfying the outrageous carnal thoughts of fat, shite-stinking, beer-swilling yahoos entertaining their latest rape fantasy as they sit in front of you agog like a child. I can almost see Jesus hanging out, enjoying himself, and then realizing, "Shit, this kind of sucks." And it's not a stretch to compassion from there. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy the sex industry. But I find that even "legitimate" (for lack of better word) people turn "sleazy" when around it, kind of the way no guy is going to tell you about a bowel movement without making it into some sort of joke. It must have driven Jesus nuts, in theory, to sit around and see all these good and caring people trapped in a social cycle that left them to their vices. I can see how such situations would eventually change a person's heart and conscience severely. Besides, the idea works even if Jesus really isn't a savior. After all, if he engaged a 12-year siege against his own conscience, megalomania is among the preferable symptoms if he cracks suddenly at, oh, say, age 30, and imagines himself commissioned by God to challenge the things which sicken his heart. Lots of wine, flesh, and plenty of those little things the prophets ate to make them so animated and insightful ... I do know that farmers in modern-day Lebanon will grow cannabis for hashish. Come on--those eighteen years were a party of mythic proportions.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
 
Kiz,

A world without faith, what a sad idea.
Click to expand...
Why sad? There is no value to mistaking fantasies as if they are real.

Logic is robotic, intelligence is human.
Click to expand...
Logic is the primary tool of science and discovery. Logic allows intelligence to be effective. Whereas religion is chaotic emotionalism.

So believers are your enemy are they? You actually hate people who have faith?
Click to expand...
No I hate the institutions. The people involved are victims who need to be educated with sympathy.

These kind of forums only feed your evil desire to upset people.
Click to expand...
Who have I upset?

People who believe in something that is good, and you want to kill that idea.
Click to expand...
Religions, especially Christianity have set science back most likely many hundreds of years by stifling scientific research. Their persecution of actual scientists led to many potential scientists being discouraged from research. Even today religion is stifling leading edge research on stem cells. These actions are unforgivable.

Have you ever seen a childs face when someone tells him that Santa isn't real. All the magic, all that hope and joy gone from a childs heart.
Click to expand...
And the result is a greedy society where children are taught that through such fantasies that they can get something for nothing. Fantasies are fine when people know they are not real. Encouraging children to believe in fantasies is irresponsible.

You are no different, you are trying to kill the hope and joy which lives in all Christians,
Click to expand...
It is true that people who delude themselves that a wonderful fantasy is real will indeed feel hope and joy. That is the essential attractiveness of religion. But there is no evidence that says that truth has to be likeable or is enjoyable. All evidence indicates that life is tough and harsh. Deal with it.

but make no mistake, Jesus and God are real.
Click to expand...
Then prove it.

Why is it that athiests like yourself have to hide behind pen and computers trying to snuff out hope and faith in this world, you call this fun.
Click to expand...
There is no fun in dying. Religions irresponsibly teach people there is a life after death; they believe that death has been conquered by believing in fictional super beings. They have no evidence to support any such claims. If you want to avoid death then science and technology hold by far the best possible hope of such things. Two thousand years ago you would be lucky to live beyond the age of 20, science has now made it possible to live beyond 100. Current rapid advances in anti-aging research indicate these numbers are very likely to be pushed much further in the coming decades. The goal of eliminating the disease of aging is seen as inevitable.

If you and yours were so enthusiastic about your non belief in Christ and God, why don't you go to Church on a Sunday morning, stand at the pulpit and tell the congregation that God is non existant. I will tell you why you wouldn't, you lot are spineless. You and such are are like malignant growth within society.
Click to expand...
Why do you assume I haven’t done any such thing? You know nothing about me. Some 10 years ago I did attend post Sunday service discussions at my village meetings and for several years I was the lone atheist battling against the Christians. The meetings were often heated, but mostly we found common ground in real life situations where to be Christian or not seemed often irrelevant. I am quite comfortable lecturing and debating atheism with a live audience as I am about teaching and lecturing in my regular profession. Whenever the opportunity arises for a live face-to-face philosophical debate I will always join in.

Your accusation is without foundation. Are you likely to apologize?

As far as I know I have not directed any ad hominem attacks at you, so why are you attacking me personally?

Cris
 
Tiassa,

You know you are always welcome to interrupt and add to any of my debates. You have helped me countless times and I have learnt a tremendous amount from you for which I will be eternally grateful.

Cris
 
Speaking tour?

Okay, first of all ... what's this about a world without faith? Just as a side note, I'm getting tired of that particular melodramatic slop.

Cris

It's been a while since we had a long topic together. I rather quite miss them, to be honest, though you might have been able to tell by the last couple months of my posts in the forum.

But you know ... I think you ought to take up Kiz on the speaking part. I'm up for it. Any day. A speaking tour; we can hit churches up and down the west coast. The Quakers will hear it out. The SDA's will just so they can feel superior when they prove that the Sabbath is Saturday ( :bugeye: yes, I'm harping on that point today because it annoys me). There's a number of Catholic schools up and down the coast where guest speakers get a crack at the young minds of students (I had to put up with Medjugorje in high school--those kids actually came and spoke to our school; it was a sentimental appeal, as if thoughts of a cute baby Jesus peeking playfully from behind his "swaddling clothes" was any substantial reinforcement of faith.)

Seriously ... I'll even be the spin doctor. Write up what you want and I'll rewrite it according to my subtle-gloss standards so the masses don't realize it's necessarily an atheist speaking to them. That'll keep their minds open for a short while, at least.

Course, I always figured I would wait to do that until I was published as an author, had the reputation to spend, and could afford to spend eight hours a day for six months preparing the speeches.

My new home will be in a slightly-rural area just north of Seattle. The house is within comfortable bicycle distance of a Lutheran church, a Catholic church, and an SDA book house. How ever did I get so lucky?

But at some point, I might just wander up to the Catholic house and ask for a crack at talking to their youth organization.

I'll let you know how it goes when I get around to it. But it won't be until after the New Year at least.

In the meantime, I really do wonder at the need of some religious people to vilify that with which they disagree. Seems rather superstitious, like I could walk through town and say, "Look out! A jiggaboo!" and see hundreds of people scramble to lock their doors.

I guess the wrath of God is the most attractive thing about the Bible, then. I'm amazed at the number of Christians who apparently (observable in practice) ignore the New Testament. Oh, wait, wait... sorry, many of those do pay attention to the New Testament, like Romans, Phillippians, &c. Pauline and Johannine writings. It's just Jesus they seem to ignore.

Yes, that last was unnecessary. Yes, it was unkind. But yes, unfortunately, it is fair.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
 
Frankly, I don't know

On a serious note Tiassa, I have a question . Why doesn't America get rid of "In God we trust"?
Click to expand...
I have no idea. The phrase came about as such in 1954 or so, as I understand it, in response to "godless" Communism. The latest conflagration is not the first Holy War that Americans have engaged.

It seems to me tantamount to standing on the corner and praying loudly for all to see (Matt. 6.5).
America doesn't trust anyone, let alone God. I know that there are campaigns already underway to this effect
Click to expand...
True, but I think the Judeo-Christian heritage lends much toward that effect. Remember that people are "born into sin". It seems a subtle point, but when we look to the worst in people, what can we expect? If we presume everyone around us is sinful and evil, what, really, do we expect?

It's tragic.

thanx,
Tiassa :cool:
 
It most certainly is Christian influenced, and began just after the Civil War.

http://www.ustreas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.html

Just like the addition to the Pledge of Allegience in 1954 by the Knights of Columbus.

http://history.vineyard.net//pledge.htm

And there've been other failed attempts, including changing the Constitution itself to reflect a Christian nation.

http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/igwt1.htm

Watkinson's effort to religionize the coinage was part of a larger campaign waged by a coalition of eleven Protestant denominations under the umbrella of the National Reform Association. Disenchanted with the secularism of documents such as the Constitution, the NRA sought to amend that instrument to "indicate that this is a Christian nation." Petitions were raised and formally presented to Congress. They proposed a new preamble to the Constitution which read:

"We, the people of the United States, humbly acknowledging Almighty God as the source of all authority and power in civil government, the Lord Jesus Christ as the Ruler among the nations, His revealed will as the supreme law of the land, in order to constitute a Christian government..."

Fortunately, the petition failed despite the membership of powerful and wealthy men in the National Reform Association. They included Supreme Court Justice William Strong, a handful of governors and prominent businessmen.
Click to expand...
 
In 1782 Jefferson, who coined the phrase 'wall of separation between church and state,' authored the first national motto. From an Deist and separationist like Jefferson this motto was clearly secular.

"E Pluribus Unum," (One from Many) In God We Trust.


On July 30, 1956, Congress confirmed "In God we trust" as the nation's motto, while acknowleding that the Latin phrase "E Pluribus unum" (One from Many) is also a national motto.


Does this ring any bells.

Doesn't it appear on American coinage?
Doesn't it appear on the Great Seal?

I'm looking at a dollar bill right now, and there it is "In God We Trust" and the Great Seal is there "E Pluribus Unum"
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You atheist people need to stop wasting time trying to prove false what cannot be proven false...U all need to stop making claims without evidence. Do something productive, preach the virtues, tell others to live respectable life, love one another, be kind and generous, teach this things IF YOU REALLY CLAIM WHAT YOU ARE, YOU SAID YOU DONT HAVE TO BE A CHRISTIAN TO BE GOOD? WELL THEN PROVE IT AND STOP RAMBLING. You quote statistics of ATHEIST WEBPAGES, WHAT DO U EXPECT TO GET OUT OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE NO COMMITMENT TO HONESTY? TRUTH? OF COURSE NOT, I CAN IMAGINE THE AUTHOR BEHIND IT, PROBABLY A MAD MAN WHO AIMS DESTROYING CHRISTIANITY, LOL, GOOD LUCK BUT YOU WILL LOOSE, JESUS SAID "PETER YOU ARE MY ROCK UPON MY ROCK I WILL BUILD MY FOUNDATION AND NOT THE GATES OF HELL SHALL PREVAIL AGAINST IT", NOT EVEN THE GATES OF HELL WILL PREVAIL AGAINST THE CHURCH, WHAT MADE YOU THINK YOU CAN?

LIKE KIZ WAS SAYING, WHEN WILL U GO IN FRONT OF CHURCHES AND PREACH HOW JESUS AND GOD ARE NON-EXISTENT, I DARE YOU...

Indeed it is a christian dominant world your living in, but why are you wasting time trying to battle against christianity which by the way you can never defeat, there are many christians, but only few are very sharp about their faith (the intellectuals) but when you meet them, you will be sorry because all your dedication is a dot compared to their understanding of science and philosophy. Some christians may even be violent and not know what their faith is all about, some may do, some maybe loving and kind, some may not be. THE POINT BEING IS THAT THE BATTLE IS NOT AGAINST FLESH BUT AGAINST PRINCIPALITIES AND EVIL IN THE WORLD. CRIS, YOU WILL MAKE THE BIGGEST MISTAKE OF YOUR LIFE IF U TRIED TO TEACH IN FRONT OF CHURCHES HOW THERE IS NO GOD BECAUSE OTHER CHRISTIANS FELT THAT KILLING NON BELIEVERS ARE JUSTIFIED, DONT FIGHT AGAINST FLESH, OR THE NAME OF GOD, YOU WILL NOT WIN, YOU CAN ONLY SUFFER OR EVEN DIE, INSTEAD BE A GOOD EXAMPLE, BE KIND, LOVE ONE ANOTHER, AND YOU WILL BE RECOGNIZED THIS WAY.

I have full 110% confidence and have no fear in debating with any atheist in the universe from science to philosophy to biology, because i got the truth on my side, indeed Im not very smart, BUT MY TEACHER WHO TAUGHT ME WILL PUT ALL OF YOU TO SHAME, from science to philosophy, Im just a begginer and a student, at the same time i teach to high school students catechism.
 
"Doesn't it appear on the Great Seal?"

No, it doesn't...the Great Seal appears on the dollar on the other side from "In God We Trust", but it does not have that motto on it itself.

http://www.greatseal.com/index.html

I'm sorry muscleman if linking to history documents is too atheistic of a source for you. The same history can be verified elsewhere, if you dig deeper, maybe on an approved Christian site even.
 
Hi Jaxom

In his beak is a scroll inscribed with the motto E pluribus unum. That is in small writing on the ribbon at either side of the eagles' head on the dollar.

I'm looking at it right now.
 
I must have misread your post as implying that "In God We Trust" was somehow in the Seal, as you had combined the motto with E Pluribus Unum originally in mentioning Jefferson. There are no secular ties with the Great Seal was my point.
 
Hi Jaxom

Okay, what is your view of the motto One Of Many, if like you say, has no reference to the In God We Trust
 
Okay, what is your view of the motto One Of Many
Click to expand...
Ive heard that the "One out of Many" motto is a reference to the fact that the US is one country made out of many states. Which has nothing to do with trusting god. That was added sometime in the 50's out of fear of the goddless communists.:rolleyes:
 
yeah Jaxom, the motto "In GOD we trust" and having the constitution based in judea christian's 10 commandments, and freedom of speech and all ARE VERY ATHEISTIC, LOL...I have no comment on that, but to say WAKE UP, YOUR HALLUCINATING!
 
having the constitution based in judea christian's 10 commandments, and freedom of speech and all ARE VERY ATHEISTIC
Click to expand...
Have you actually read the constitution? It has nothing to do with the 10 commandments at all. The only ones it can even be related to it contradicts. (no other gods before me vs congress will not establish a state religion is the best example) Some of the other commandments are found in our other laws (no murder or stealing) but those laws are pretty much universal and predate the 10 commandmets because no society can survive where that is permitted.

As for freedom of being very atheistic, i agree completely. Religion has always been opposed to people being allowed to say waht they think. In fact most religions would prefer people dont think at all.
WAKE UP, YOUR HALLUCINATING!
Click to expand...
You should consider taking your own advice.
 
you guys are STRANGE. Let us see how "atheistic" our country is. All founding fathers are believers of God, from diest to christians. FREEDOM OF LIBERTY AND JUSTICE is taught in the bible by Jesus Himself, NO OTHER COUNTRY HAS THE SAME GUIDELINES WE HAVE. MOTTO "ONE NATION UNDER GOD" is in the pledge of alegions. All the presidents, dead or living ARE ALL BELIEVERS OF GOD, WOW! THIS COUNTRY IS SO ATHEISTIC!

The constitution DOES HAVE THE LAWS BASED ON JUDEA TEACHINGS, THE 10 COMMANDMENTS, EVEN ONE NATION UNDER GOD, THOUGH CONSTITUTION IS NOT A TEACHING OF THE CHURCH AND DIDNT ASK PRAISE AND WORSHIP IN THE COURT OR WHITE HOUSE, BUT WHO IS COMPARING WORSHIP TO GOD AND CONGRESS? YOUR STRANGE...
 
YOU LIAR...CONSTITUTION IS BASED ON JUDEA'S 10 COMMANDMENTS. You heard of "thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor" in 10 commandments, and that's a FRAUD in US and you are accountable for that wrongfull act. IN FACT WE HOLD THE BIBLE IN THE COURT AND PROCLAIM TO SAY NOTHING BUT THE TRUTH.

Common sense? SHOW ME WHERE IN THE HINDUISM'S TEACHING WHERE IT SAYS THOU SHALL NOT KILL AND STEAL, AFTER ALL THATS THE OLDEST PRACTICED RELIGION AND SECOND IS JUDEA.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top