Mormons and polygamy

[phlogistician]

He was not dishonest,

His arrest record says otherwise. He was a repeat offender.

nor is the Church; there are many Church articles that treat its interesting past.

That re-interpret and rewrite it's history you mean, glossing over the polygamy and racism.

This feels like Bible-bashing, choosing the sources we want to claim are accurate.

And Mormons seem to be rather good as slinging mud at ex-mormons who expose the dirty underside of the faith. What's your point exactly? I'm sure the truth lies somewhere between, and somehow, I think it's closer to the ex-Mormon's side of the story.

Were your Mormon friends in good standing with the Church?

I guess not, as they were in the process of becoming ex-Mormons.

I'm also curious, do you try to disprove other religions too?

Am I trying to 'disprove' a religion? I didn't think so. I think all I was doing was pointing out the obvious flaws. But I do this for all flaws I come across, if that answers your question.

 

[phlogistician]

T
I disagree. The source of information has a huge effect on the validity of the content.

Yeah, and 'the source' is the guy that is talking, who volunteers in a bookshop in Utah, and who has access to facsimile of the gold tablets! The medium that this information is shared to you via does not lessen the veracity of his words.

I can tell from the sources you've chosen that what little research you've done has been one-sided.

Really? Because for months we entertained two Mormon Missionaries, read the Book Of Mormon, and and asked them questions. We persuaded one to leave the Church.

Have you even bothered to see what Mormons in good standing with the church have to say? Have you checked out FAIRlds or FARMS?

One of the Church Elders visited us once. He was badly educated and not very bright, but then he was in a house shared by a bunch of physics Post Docs and their lab tech (me) all with IQs over 140 (one guy 167). He was in 'Good standing' with the Church, but he really wasn't very clever. He failed to persuade us he had good reason for holding the view he did.

 

[chimpkin]

I agree, so then polygamy should be legal as well.

You know how the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints(FLDS) afford all those wives?
Only the first one is legal, the rest get welfare.
That's right, you and I are funding their plural marriages.

Make polygamy legal and they are screwed! And they are a nasty little cult, IMO. Forced underage marriage, and the "lost boys," male children kicked out of the cult so there's more girls for the elders (30's and up) to have.

Polygamy, and polyandry-two or more men and one woman...these ought to be legal. But triads and more are never going to be mainstream, given gender equality.

One of the three-or-more is going to leave after getting the short end of the stick once too often.

 

[Orleander]

You know how the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints(FLDS) afford all those wives?
Only the first one is legal, the rest get welfare.
That's right, you and I are funding their plural marriages.

Make polygamy legal and they are screwed! And they are a nasty little cult, IMO. Forced underage marriage, and the "lost boys," male children kicked out of the cult so there's more girls for the elders (30's and up) to have....

there are cults (not FLDS) that have plural marriage to underaged girls. But some don't. Some of those extra wives also have jobs and aren't living off welfare. I

 

[gmilam]

How so?

Those tablets were the Book of Mormon, right? That's fairly central to the belief. Seriously, a con man finds some tablets and translates them from a language he does not know by using a couple of "seer stones". People believe this stuff. Wow...

I think those decisions should be available, but they should have nothing to do with marital status. How hard would it be to just have people designate one relation or individual, regardless of marriage, to have those rights? It could be a spouse, partner, sibling, etc.

Is that such a terrible change?

Why do you think religion has a copyright on marriage? Marriage is a legal contract between two people. No religion has a claim to it.

 

[Orleander]

Those tablets were the Book of Mormon, right? That's fairly central to the belief. Seriously, a con man finds some tablets and translates them from a language he does not know by using a couple of "seer stones". People believe this stuff. Wow......

and a man names Moses gets some tablets on a mountain from a talking burning bush. How is that any more believable?

 

[gmilam]

and a man names Moses gets some tablets on a mountain from a talking burning bush. How is that any more believable?

It's not. I don't believe that one either.

 

[Socratic Spelunker]

I mean, the giant Toad/Frog? The stupid glasses.

The what?...

 

[Socratic Spelunker]

Yeah, and 'the source' is the guy that is talking, who volunteers in a bookshop in Utah, and who has access to facsimile of the gold tablets! The medium that this information is shared to you via does not lessen the veracity of his words.

Still not exactly a scholarly source.

Really? Because for months we entertained two Mormon Missionaries, read the Book Of Mormon, and and asked them questions. We persuaded one to leave the Church.

Your convinced a 19 year old boy with little or no real training to leave and who was prolly homesick and wanted to go home anyway? Well, the whole thing must be a sham then!

One of the Church Elders visited us once. He was badly educated and not very bright, but then he was in a house shared by a bunch of physics Post Docs and their lab tech (me) all with IQs over 140 (one guy 167). He was in 'Good standing' with the Church, but he really wasn't very clever. He failed to persuade us he had good reason for holding the view he did.

What are the odds. my IQ is in thee 160s too. But you know why that doesn't matter? Scientists don't even understand what "Intelligence" is yet. How are you gonna measure something if you don't know what it is. IQ tests are BS.

and the "lost boys,"

Are we talkin "Non-sparkly, blood-drenched vampires" Lost Boys? Or "Third star to the left, straight on till morning" Lost Boys?

Because one of those is awesome, and the other is the "Third star to the left, straight on till morning" Lost Boys.

 

[gmilam]

Still not exactly a scholarly source.

Do you deny his calculations as to how much gold tablets of that size would weigh?

 

[phlogistician]

and a man names Moses gets some tablets on a mountain from a talking burning bush. How is that any more believable?

Equally incredible, and clearly the inspiration for Smiths lies. Odd how in both cases these fundamentally important artefacts are lost.

 

[phlogistician]

Still not exactly a scholarly source.

Yet again you sling mud and refuse to discuss the content. That's poor.

Your convinced a 19 year old boy with little or no real training to leave and who was prolly homesick and wanted to go home anyway? Well, the whole thing must be a sham then!

19? Male? Wrong on both counts bub.

What are the odds. my IQ is in thee 160s too. But you know why that doesn't matter? Scientists don't even understand what "Intelligence" is yet. How are you gonna measure something if you don't know what it is. IQ tests are BS.

Not totallytrue IQ tests have some validity, or else why did you stoop to take one? Anyway two of the guys were also post docs, you skipped over that part, conveniently. And the the church elder wasn't well educated. That was the point, but again, you sling mud and don't debate the facts. That's poor.

 

[phlogistician]

Are we talkin "Non-sparkly, blood-drenched vampires" Lost Boys? Or "Third star to the left, straight on till morning" Lost Boys?

Are you being deliberately obtuse? I think so. That's poor.

 

[Socratic Spelunker]

Yet again you sling mud and refuse to discuss the content. That's poor.

Offer some real content and we'll discuss it.

19? Male? Wrong on both counts bub.

Irrelevant.

Not totallytrue IQ tests have some validity, or else why did you stoop to take one? Anyway two of the guys were also post docs, you skipped over that part, conveniently. And the the church elder wasn't well educated. That was the point, but again, you sling mud and don't debate the facts. That's poor.

I took one as part of a psych evaluation for a position I was applying for. No two IQ tests have the same scale nor do they test for the same things. The number it spits out is almost meaningless unless it's being compared to people who took that same version of the test, and even then it based on the developing psychologists best guess as to what intelligence actually is and how to measure it. For example, some tests use 140 for the threshold for "genius". Some use 100. So I could have an IQ of only 103 and still be more "intelligent" than your friends.

Doctorates are not a mark of intelligence. Anyone with patience, focus, and some money can get a doctorate. They may know a lot of facts, but knowledge and intelligence are two different things. I know people with lots of knowledge, but extremely poor reasoning and thinking skills. At best, it is a mark of advanced familiarity within a certain field. What were these doctorates in? Were any of them relevant to Early LDS Racial policies or the status of women in the church?

Unless its in a relevant field, then their comments aren't that meaningful. I mean, when you have a question about religion, do you ask your mechanic? It doesn't matter how well he knows cars, it doesn't make him an authority on religion.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? I think so. That's poor.

Actually, I was trying to break up the tension and get us to laugh again. Even when I'm trying to be friendly I'm vilified...

He making a comment that was kinda off topic and I took it to be more of a side-note about the FLDS, not the LDS, so I didn't feel the need to respond seriously.

Why don't we all just think about what we're saying and stop looking for reasons to be angry. When emotions go up, rationality goes down.

 

[phlogistician]

Offer some real content and we'll discuss it.

I did, and you are now rather looking shifty and evasive, because you are avoiding discussing the points raised by the guy in that Youtube video. Do you fault his math?

Irrelevant.

You brought up the ages and genders, not me. You were wrong.

Doctorates are not a mark of intelligence. Anyone with patience, focus, and some money can get a doctorate. They may know a lot of facts, but knowledge and intelligence are two different things.

You are aware that to get a PhD the candidate must perform some ORIGINAL research? You cannot get one by learning by rote. And we weren't talking about 'anyone' but two specific Astronomy Post Docs I shared a house with.

Actually, I was trying to break up the tension and get us to laugh again. Even when I'm trying to be friendly I'm vilified...

He making a comment that was kinda off topic and I took it to be more of a side-note about the FLDS, not the LDS, so I didn't feel the need to respond seriously.

Then you need to work on your funny, because you aren't.

Why don't we all just think about what we're saying and stop looking for reasons to be angry. When emotions go up, rationality goes down.

I'm not emotional. I'm dispassionately dissecting the BS that is the Mormon Church.

 

[chimpkin]

Are we talkin "Non-sparkly, blood-drenched vampires" Lost Boys? Or "Third star to the left, straight on till morning" Lost Boys?

Because one of those is awesome, and the other is the "Third star to the left, straight on till morning" Lost Boys.

No, these ones:

"Lost boys" are young men who have been excommunicated or pressured to leave polygynous groups such as the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS).[1] They are allegedly pressured to leave by adult men to reduce competition for wives within such sects, usually when they are between the ages of 13 and 21.[2]

FLDS men are each expected to marry at least three wives.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_boys_(Mormon_fundamentalism)

So, yeah, if you want to have plural wives, that means some guys get none.
Which is a long term formula for social disruption.

 

[Socratic Spelunker]

I did, and you are now rather looking shifty and evasive, because you are avoiding discussing the points raised by the guy in that Youtube video. Do you fault his math?

You did not. This is essentially a scientific community, so let's see some scholarly, peer reviewed publications. Let's see something objective.

There is no math in that video, but I do think the replica of the plates is wrong and his whole argument hinges on "Look how heavy this replica is". You can see that each page is super thick. Thicker than tin would be. And the pages of the book of mormon were supposed to be thinner than that. The book joseph found is probably more like the Keumgangkyeongpan, second to last picture here.

You brought up the ages and genders, not me. You were wrong.

Ok, I concede that I do not personally know the missionary to which to refer. Good job.

You are aware that to get a PhD the candidate must perform some ORIGINAL research? You cannot get one by learning by rote. And we weren't talking about 'anyone' but two specific Astronomy Post Docs I shared a house with.

Still doesn't make them a genius. And even if it did, Astronomy has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

Then you need to work on your funny, because you aren't.

Well, like I said, I was just trying to get us to relax. Sorry for not taking all this so seriously.

I'm not emotional. I'm dispassionately dissecting the BS that is the Mormon Church.

You are not. I can tell you're getting a little worked up from the way you respond.

 

[Socratic Spelunker]

No, these ones:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lost_boys_(Mormon_fundamentalism)

So, yeah, if you want to have plural wives, that means some guys get none.
Which is a long term formula for social disruption.

Ok, so once again, not the LDS.

 

[phlogistician]

You did not. This is essentially a scientific community, so let's see some scholarly, peer reviewed publications. Let's see something objective.

A peer reviewed article on a set of golden tablets that we don't have, and never existed in the first place? Are you serious?

The guy in the video substantiates the dimensions of the replica according to Smith's own testimony btw.

Talking of objectivity, did you Google Smith's arrest record? Do you not find it a little suspicious he had a history of 'finding' things?

There is no math in that video, but I do think the replica of the plates is wrong and his whole argument hinges on "Look how heavy this replica is". You can see that each page is super thick. Thicker than tin would be. And the pages of the book of mormon were supposed to be thinner than that.

'more likely' based upon what? But anyway, even if the pages were thinner, gold is more dense, so the points in the video still stand.

Still doesn't make them a genius. And even if it did, Astronomy has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

But they were both, and you are missing the point.

You are not. I can tell you're getting a little worked up from the way you respond.

Spare me the pop-psychology, because you are wrong.

 

[phlogistician]

Ok, so once again, not the LDS.

No, the FLDS, which appear to be truer to original Mormon ideology. Or at least, admit to being truer in public.