MSA Student Would Prefer Second Holocaust

[S.A.M.]

Horowitz choice was rather like Geoff's poll. With us or against us.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

But you miss the point. As long as you see Israeli's as mere nazi's or occupiers then you lose all sense of their humanity, the same way that muslim characterizations leads to a dehumanized view of the entire group. You have stopped looking at them as human beings with the same fears and vulnerabilities as Palestinians.

if you cannot see 'their side' you cannot expect them to see 'your side' or the palestinian side or the muslim side. Can you see this?

You ask how americans can forget that their state is based on dispossession? Easily. It was so many generations ago, there have been so many immigrants who moved to the States generations upon generations after the fact that its no longer a valid perspective. Do you see a lebanese family living in Australia as occupiers on aboriginal soil? Do you see present day English people as Norman invaders?

 

[S.A.M.]

But the Israelis are occupiers. You cannot deny reality to fit some sort of flexible moral compass. The native Americans were on the lands for over 10,000 years, if their genocide can be forgotten, then the whole right to exist is specious. Immigration is not genocide. Jews have lived and moved to Palestine for several thousand years. But it was not until Israel that they became occupiers [if we ignore the previous myth/history which cannot be supported by evidence]

 

[Bells]

But you miss the point. As long as you see Israeli's as mere nazi's or occupiers then you lose all sense of their humanity, the same way that muslim characterizations leads to a dehumanized view of the entire group. You have stopped looking at them as human beings with the same fears and vulnerabilities as Palestinians.

if you cannot see 'their side' you cannot expect them to see 'your side' or the palestinian side or the muslim side. Can you see this?

You ask how americans can forget that their state is based on dispossession? Easily. It was so many generations ago, there have been so many immigrants who moved to the States generations upon generations after the fact that its no longer a valid perspective. Do you see a lebanese family living in Australia as occupiers on aboriginal soil? Do you see present day English people as Norman invaders?

Don't you get it yet?

They didn't start off as "Nazi's or occupiers". They came to Israel as a people who had been through a holocaust.

But are they the same now? No. Their neighbours didn't want them there and still don't want them there. The Palestinians who were dispossessed by third parties are still dispossessed and continue to be dispossessed and their rights to exist continue to be eroded.

The solution is not to continue dispossessing them. The solution is not to be found in beating old women at border checkpoints under the guise of "hypervigilance".

The land they were given was deemed sufficient at the time.. They have since taken so much land that the Palestinians who were living on said land are now living in hovels and refugee camps. Is that fair? No. Just as it's not fair to have Palestinians blowing themselves up on buses.. But why are they doing that?

What is the central cause to the hatred and the ongoing hatred? Why can't they find a solution? Could it be because one side wants to just keep grabbing land as they please and the other side wants them out entirely? I can see why Jews are afraid and I can see why Palestinians are angry. That's what you're not getting. I sympathise with the Palestinians who live in constant fear but do not resort to violence.. it is their plight that is the travesty of this whole affair. Just as I sympathise with the Jews who live in constant fear and do not resort to violence and try to do their best to not be like the hateful settlers. But their voices are being drowned out by people screaming out about "hypervigilance" and others claiming Jewish superiority and how that superiority deems it acceptable to deny Palestinians the right to exist on land they've existed on for hundreds of years..

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

But the Israelis are occupiers. You cannot deny reality to fit some sort of flexible moral compass. The native Americans were on the lands for over 10,000 years, if their genocide can be forgotten, then the whole right to exist is specious. Immigration is not genocide. Jews have lived and moved to Palestine for several thousand years. But it was not until Israel that they became occupiers [if we ignore the previous myth/history which cannot be supported by evidence]

No I do not see them as occupiers of the whole of Israel no. If you see them as occupiers of the whole of Israel then you also see all americans as occupiers of the entire United States. Palestinians are not undergoing a genocide, they are undergoing an apartheid system, a system that robs them of human rights but its not a genocide.

Again I tell you that you can say the same thing over and over again as you have been doing but it won't be heard effectively if you see them as nothing but occupiers and invaders and nazis. They are no longer occupiers but citizens within a nation, the so called invasion happened a long time ago and they are no more likely to give back land than my mother is likely to hand over the keys to the house to a native Indian. Do you see my point? I mean you discuss it because it upsets you but what is more important? Being upset? Or seeking solutions and common understanding? The raw emotion doesn't help palestinians we see that already. There has to be a step back and a look at the situation from a different angle. Have you ever seen promises? I posted the link a few posts back after Bells documentary description. Watch it. You might find it somewhat interesting.

 

[nirakar]

The Palestinians can be nice and calm or they can be angry and hysterical. It does not matter. Israel will not give back what they have taken and they will take some more. No nation will intercede on the Palestinians behalf sufficiently to stop that.

All that remains to be fought for is whether the truth or lies will be in the history books.

 

[S.A.M.]

No I do not see them as occupiers of the whole of Israel no.

That makes no difference to this guy does it? Your theoretical opinions do not change the reality that he, his children and grandchildren have faced for 60 years.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Don't you get it yet?

They didn't start off as "Nazi's or occupiers". They came to Israel as a people who had been through a holocaust.

But are they the same now? No. Their neighbours didn't want them there and still don't want them there. The Palestinians who were dispossessed by third parties are still dispossessed and continue to be dispossessed and their rights to exist continue to be eroded.

The solution is not to continue dispossessing them. The solution is not to be found in beating old women at border checkpoints under the guise of "hypervigilance".

The land they were given was deemed sufficient at the time.. They have since taken so much land that the Palestinians who were living on said land are now living in hovels and refugee camps. Is that fair? No. Just as it's not fair to have Palestinians blowing themselves up on buses.. But why are they doing that?

What is the central cause to the hatred and the ongoing hatred? Why can't they find a solution? Could it be because one side wants to just keep grabbing land as they please and the other side wants them out entirely? I can see why Jews are afraid and I can see why Palestinians are angry. That's what you're not getting. I sympathise with the Palestinians who live in constant fear but do not resort to violence.. it is their plight that is the travesty of this whole affair. Just as I sympathise with the Jews who live in constant fear and do not resort to violence and try to do their best to not be like the hateful settlers. But their voices are being drowned out by people screaming out about "hypervigilance" and others claiming Jewish superiority and how that superiority deems it acceptable to deny Palestinians the right to exist on land they've existed on for hundreds of years..

And Palestinians didn't start out as suicide bombers but that is what eventuated. Your argument is nothing but circles built on circles. People rarely ever speak of hypervigilance they speak only of who did what when, who got their first, what happened after the holocaust then goes back to what happened centuries before hand so I don't find that discussion really interesting unless you want to listen to a rant.

The point is that neither side is listening to each other. You cannot call someone a nazi and expect them to hear you. Its as simple as that. Palestinians cannot shoot rockets into settler territory and then expect settlers not to behave as an armed gang. Its as simple as that. There is no such thing as 'jewish superiority' but there is such a thing as military superiority. See the difference? Palestinians have no more of a measured perspective on Israeli jews than jews have of Palestinians. If that does't change then we are all simply typing away, in other words pissing in the wind.

I would rather have a different discussion with Sam than throwing the same rant and having her answer with the same rhetoric IF it is possible. I understand her position on the matter, what I would like her to see is how a small shift in perspective will not mean that she is any less sensitized to civil and human rights abuse but that she may be armed in such a manner as to be able to have those who are suspicious of her convictions to hear her more clearly. That cannot happen with 'nazi' and examples of austrian perverts abound not to mention saying that american casualties in 9/11 amounted to a psychotic losing some 'toes', or that americans were crying over 'buildings'. If you don't see this Bells then you are simply being a lawyer trying to win an argument as opposed to a civil rights advocate who is trying to appeal to someone's higher sensibilities. I'm not interested in if you understand why jews are afraid, my posts were directed towards Sam because she doesn't understand why jews are afraid or where this hypervigilance stems from.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

That makes no difference to this guy does it? Your theoretical opinions do not change the reality that he, his children and grandchildren have faced for 60 years.

No it doesn't make a difference to that guy, if that guy is even still alive. His grandchildren though will not make much headway by living off of his loss. I am not being callous simply realistic. African americans who get stuck on the injustices of the past tend not to develop very much in the present, same with aboriginals, they tend to get caught up in a self-destructive cycle, similar to young men and women blowing themselves up and convincing others that they are doing harm to israelis when in reality they are nihilistically ridding themselves of their best resources which is the vibrant, strong, youth who could find other, more creative means of addressing the issue. After all, for the State of Israel it only amounts to one less vibrant Palestinian youth, they on the other hand live to fight another day.

 

[S.A.M.]

I don't see a moral equivalence between being the occupier and being occupied. I understand that Israelis are not a single entity and there are individual Israelis who recognise the rights of Palestinians. However if the last Peace Now demonstration in Tel Aviv is any indication, they are overwhelmingly comprised of the 10% of Israelis who are not Jewish. So I see the problem in Israel as a problem of Jewishness. And people like Horowitz and Dershowitz conflating the resistance of the occupied with "Islamofascism" is like blaming the Jews for the Holocaust. So to say that there is a reason Jews are scared is like saying there is a reason the Germans were justified. You cannot use irrational justifications for oppression and expect to win any converts. Of course the Israelis are afraid, the same reason anyone who tortures or kills is afraid of their victims. If you stand guard over people you humiliate, dispossess and torture, they will express their opinion on it and you can never turn your back on them. You will always be afraid of them because the guilty are always afraid.

Have you seen the results of the latest poll in Israel? The overwhelming response of Israelis to Palestinian conditions is denial. They are afraid to know, they don't want to know.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...enial-over-treatment-of-palestinians-1.289836

Also look up "Palestinian hanging" aka "reverse hanging". You bet they are scared.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

And that's the problem, you see 'Jewishness' as a problem. And with that argument you justify the sentiments of people like Horowitz. Its the same thing that happened with the MSA student, she dismembered her own argument that the MSA was a benign organization by admitting she would like to see all Jews wiped out. Similarly you using the term 'jewishness' and declaring it a problem, plays into the hands of those who say that muslims are simply 'jew haters' with no other agenda but the demise of the jewish State. Now if that's your intention then go ahead but you may find that you are neither heard nor understood, which to me seems pointless and a solid waste of time.

Israel doesn't need converts. Don't you see that? The State of Israel will continue to exist whether you meet it half way or not. Israelis will continue to have the upper hand both militarily and politically no matter how much you rant about 'jewishness'. The rant only exhausts you but it doesn't affect them nor does it aid the palestinians nor does it draw the sympathy of the West who are already suspicious of the intentions of muslims which seems more and more radical everyday.

Like Niraka said the only thing you will have to hope for is that the history books get it right and I am sure that in another 50 or 100 years down the road some Jewish prime minister will issue an apology on behalf of the State of Israel and life will go on. Does that sound familiar to you?

Anyway I gave it a good ole British try.

I'm going to get some sleep Sam. I'll check back tomorrow.:wave:

 

[S.A.M.]

Like Niraka said the only thing you will have to hope for is that the history books get it right and I am sure that in another 50 or 100 years down the road some Jewish prime minister will issue an apology on behalf of the State of Israel and life will go on. Does that sound familiar to you?

Are we still talking about the Middle East?

 

[GeoffP]

Tamahto, tomayto. You identify with a racial group that gives you right to citizenship in a Middle Eastern land based on mythology, not culture. You are not Palestinian. Or Arab or Middle Eastern. You are not even of the same faith, forget culture. You are a westerner who clings to a distilled Judaism, based on what? a couple of recipes? A celebration of myths based on fiction, like Passover and Exodus?

Reprehensible. It would be as fair to question the validity of Islam as a religion, since most of it's practitioners don't even understand the language of the Quran. Let alone nonsenses like flying camels and tourist trips to heaven, or even an inch-high demented angel constantly whispering in someone's ear. A sorry pack of bollocks.

I don't think any state has an inherent "right to exist", and race based states have no place in the modern world.

What about religion-based states?

Horowitz choice was rather like Geoff's poll. With us or against us.

Wrong, Sam. Simply wrong. His question was - and it's a shame I have to repeat it - this:

H: If you don’t condemn Hamas, obviously you support it: case closed. I've had this experience at UC Santa Barbara, where there were fifty members of the Muslim Students Association sitting in the rows right there. Throughout my talk I kept asking them: will you condemn Hizbollah and Hamas? None of them would.

And in the question period, the President of the Muslim Students Association was the first person to ask a question. And I said, "Before you start, will you condemn Hizbollah?" And he said "Well, that question is too complicated for a yes or no answer." So I said, "Okay, I’ll put it to you this way. I am a Jew. The head of Hizbollah has said that he hopes that we will gather in Israel so he doesn’t have to hunt us down globally: for or against it?"

JIA: For it.

I mean, I don't see the point of this childish avoidance of the issue, really. One can prattle endlessly about Israel, but it clearly isn't the issue.

Let's see if we can extricate the debate from the mud being slung at it. What has UCSD-MSA to say about Sam's moral heroine?

 

[pjdude1219]

But you miss the point. As long as you see Israeli's as mere nazi's or occupiers then you lose all sense of their humanity, the same way that muslim characterizations leads to a dehumanized view of the entire group. You have stopped looking at them as human beings with the same fears and vulnerabilities as Palestinians.

if you cannot see 'their side' you cannot expect them to see 'your side' or the palestinian side or the muslim side. Can you see this?

You ask how americans can forget that their state is based on dispossession? Easily. It was so many generations ago, there have been so many immigrants who moved to the States generations upon generations after the fact that its no longer a valid perspective. Do you see a lebanese family living in Australia as occupiers on aboriginal soil? Do you see present day English people as Norman invaders?

I guess you fail to see the irony in talking about things that take away Israelis humanity(which by the way the things you mentioned do nothing of the such) when you your self in your viewpoint have stripped away all humanity from the palestinians in your unrealistic demands for their behavior.

 

[pjdude1219]

Don't you get it yet?

They didn't start off as "Nazi's or occupiers". They came to Israel as a people who had been through a holocaust.

But are they the same now? No. Their neighbours didn't want them there and still don't want them there. The Palestinians who were dispossessed by third parties are still dispossessed and continue to be dispossessed and their rights to exist continue to be eroded.

The solution is not to continue dispossessing them. The solution is not to be found in beating old women at border checkpoints under the guise of "hypervigilance".

The land they were given was deemed sufficient at the time.. They have since taken so much land that the Palestinians who were living on said land are now living in hovels and refugee camps. Is that fair? No. Just as it's not fair to have Palestinians blowing themselves up on buses.. But why are they doing that?

What is the central cause to the hatred and the ongoing hatred? Why can't they find a solution? Could it be because one side wants to just keep grabbing land as they please and the other side wants them out entirely? I can see why Jews are afraid and I can see why Palestinians are angry. That's what you're not getting. I sympathise with the Palestinians who live in constant fear but do not resort to violence.. it is their plight that is the travesty of this whole affair. Just as I sympathise with the Jews who live in constant fear and do not resort to violence and try to do their best to not be like the hateful settlers. But their voices are being drowned out by people screaming out about "hypervigilance" and others claiming Jewish superiority and how that superiority deems it acceptable to deny Palestinians the right to exist on land they've existed on for hundreds of years..

you have hit on something. that the Israelis(the people with ability to compete violent acts at will) pretty much choose to use violence first and nothing else but the palestinians( the people you'd expect to be violent do to the abuse heaped on them) in the grand scheme fairly peaceful. according to sentiments exhibited from people who have gone on birth right unplugged( a group to counter the birthright mission the Israelis foster to make people believe they have the right to steal land from palestinians) trips to see how palestinsians live one of the common things is that people are suprised that given what the palestinians live with that their isn't more violence( ie. they believe the palestinians are being restrained).



and bells I applaud your ability to sympathize with the jewish people in palestine but I cannot. the problems they face of their own making and IMO deserve nothing but contempt or pity for being so foolish and blind to the consequences of their actions to get into such a plight.

 

[pjdude1219]

No it doesn't make a difference to that guy, if that guy is even still alive. His grandchildren though will not make much headway by living off of his loss. I am not being callous simply realistic. African americans who get stuck on the injustices of the past tend not to develop very much in the present, same with aboriginals, they tend to get caught up in a self-destructive cycle, similar to young men and women blowing themselves up and convincing others that they are doing harm to israelis when in reality they are nihilistically ridding themselves of their best resources which is the vibrant, strong, youth who could find other, more creative means of addressing the issue. After all, for the State of Israel it only amounts to one less vibrant Palestinian youth, they on the other hand live to fight another day.

your not being realistic if anything your echoing the racist undertones of colonialism. that one people should just bow down to another's wants simply because they have managed to gain a modicum of more power or feel entitled to it.

 

[CheskiChips]

The issue isn't about Palestine; it's a bout Islamofacism. Radical Islam attacks America for its liberal freedoms...that's what "Islamofacism Awareness Week is about". Hezbollah is also not a Palestinian organization, it's based in Lebanon.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

The issue isn't about Palestine; it's a bout Islamofacism. Radical Islam attacks America for its liberal freedoms...that's what "Islamofacism Awareness Week is about". Hezbollah is also not a Palestinian organization, it's based in Lebanon.

All that becomes skewed when the discussion is suddenly centered on palestine and israel. Its a detour so no one can actually discuss what's going on within radical fringe elements of islam.

Watch this. It really gets to the heart of how islamofacism infects otherwise benign communities. Its not simply in the US but global problem that affects those in the Western and non western world, jews, christians and muslims alike:

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/generation-jihad/

But god forbid if anyone pays any attention to that

 

[nirakar]

Radical Islam attacks America for its liberal freedoms...

That was Bush's lie after 9/11 in response to the question why do they hate us. Bush knew he was lying.

They hate US foreign policy. That is Why 9/11 happened.

They want to topple the corrupt Muslim regimes and they don't want the west propping up those regimes.

They hate people who hate them. That is why they burn cars in Paris suburbs. Rhat is probably more about race than Islam.

They hate people who insult their religion. These Islamic extremist who freak out at Danish cartoonists or stories of alleged Qu'ran defacement may not be exactly the same people who hate US foreign policy. Either westerners did not used to Draw cartoons about Muhammad or Muslims did not used to be so easily offended. You could say the freedom to insult Islam is that liberal freedom but the they hate our freedom line is supposed to imply that won't stop attacking us unless we give up something much more dear to us that are right to Draw cartoons about Muhammad.


They don't hate our freedom but they do hate their own freedom. They hate "immoral" behavior by Muslims. The don't believe in giving Muslims the freedom to behave immorally. The people who hate immoral behavior by Muslims may not be exactly the same people who hate USA foreign policy or the same people who hate the Danish cartoonist. What immoral means to Muslims is not that different from what immoral means to the Christian right. Muslim extremists seem even more scared of sex than Christian extremists.

Most Islamic extremist do believe in letting non Muslim society's behave as they see fit. The West may be looked down on for it's hedonism but the West has never been attacked for it's hedonism. Muslims do not ask French Christians to cover their head. It is the French anti-Muslims who want to restrict Muslim freedom not the French Muslims trying to restrict non-Muslim freedom.

I have no fear of a global Caliphate trying to Impose Islam on non Muslims. The Islamic extremists will never agree with each other about what kind of Islam they want. They will never stamp out the desire for liberal freedom among Muslims. They will never stamp out the conflicting greedy personal ambitions among their own leaders so their is no serious threat of some caliphate trying to impose Islam on the West.

that's what "Islamofacism Awareness Week is about".

David Horowitz is a hate monger who seems to want a permanent enmity between the USA's people and anybody who would oppose Israel.

Anybody who uses the term Islamofacism is either ignorant and has no idea what they are talking about or they are an anti-Muslim bigot or they are an Israel supporter or they are a supporter of a world dominated politically and militarily by the USA.

To me David Horowitz's organization seems to be more of a terrorism supporting hate group than the MSAs are.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Niraka do you believe that there are seemingly benign looking muslim organizations that actually help foster and promote extremism and offer a segue-way towards terrorist acts? Radical indoctrination and ridiculous hatred towards jews and other people in society is being fostered somehow, so how do you think it is happening?

I don't buy into the idea that islamofascism is a negative term, it describes something very specific. To say that anyone who uses it is pro Israel or anti muslim is simply a form of thought policing and a way of silencing criticism of growing radical ideology within Islam. That is something I don't buy into so I use the term and will continue to use the term because it describes something real.

Muslims it seems are in denial. Any criticism of the religion or any criticism of radical ideology is somehow perceived by muslims as an attack on the entire religion or all the followers. Radicalism isn't something that the US pulled out of their ass one day, it has existed for a while, long before 9/11 and is growing. I think its irresponsible for muslims to take umbrage and not take an honest look at how these elements are growing within their religion and within their communities.