No it isn't because there is no such thing as islamofascism.
MSA Student Would Prefer Second Holocaust
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No it isn't because there is no such thing as islamofascism.
What are they supposed to say?
Israeli Jews seem to want all of the land. They'll buy some of it, steal some of it and fight for some of it. But owning all of it is their goal. I mean, from an outsider this looks to be the case.
It's like talking Constantinople back into the hands of the Christian Greeks from the Muslim Turks. It'll never ever happen. It wasn't talked out of their hands and it won't be talked back into their hands. What could the Persians have said to the Arabs? Nothing.
I think some of the Native Americans did try talking to the settlers. No? They wanted to trade and to understand these new people.
To their demise.
Probably if they'd have united to kill English settlers while buying arms and training from the French (or even Spanish) - maybe, they might, have ended up in control of their destiny? Or maybe the diseases and Europeans millitaries were just too much?
I suppose what I'm saying is this: There's nothing Palestinians can say to Jews to prevent them from taking their lands. Nothing at all. At least in my opinion. Their only viable option is to fight for their lands. In the end they'll probably lose. Another option, which in theory could be viable is to do what the Persians did, simply convert - in this case to Judaism. I don't see why they can't?
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Horowitz probably thinks he is a defender not a attacker. Muslim hate groups think they are defenders not attackers. Who is a defender and who is a attacker gets murky. Who is provoking and who is retaliating gets murky.
My guess is that the MSAs are trying to defend the right of Muslims at colleges to have and to defend their own beliefs and loyalties separate from the majority position. I see them as being on the defense. Horowitz wants them shut up.
In the USA now it is Muslims and Mexicans who are most attacked rhetorically, not Jews.
I saw Christian, Muslim and Hindu extremism rise in the 1980s and they have stayed strong. I see this as being a result of the defeat of secular left utopianism. From history I see that the rise and fall of basic core ideology is cyclical. People will get tired of fundamentalism soon. It will never go away. Secular left Utopianism will also never go away.
The world disappoints; it will always disappoint and people will always want to improve it. Chaos scares. Corruption angers. Hedonism fails to satisfy and when carried to extreme hurts the practitioners and the people around them. Lust for power can hide behind anything but is amoral and cruel. Lust for significance tends to foster the idea that the ends justifies the means and can be even crueler than lust for power. There will always be a new backlash against the disappointing world.
Islamofascism is a negative word. Also there is nothing particularly fascist about Islamic extremism unless all freedom repressing movements are to be called fascist regardless of ideology.
The label "Islamofascism" attempts to turn the Islamic extremists into cartoon characters and attempts to delegitimize even their just grievances and concerns. This attempt to delegitimze everything Islamic extremist is no more honest than attempts to delegitimize Jewish desire for safety or Jewish attachment to Israel or attempts to delegitimize western secular liberalism's attachment to personal freedom. The American Christian right calls the secular left the "homosexual agenda" and various other idiotic labels designed to turn supporters of Western secular liberalism into depraved cartoon characters.
Anybody can play this demonization game and anybody can be the target.
I don't like Islamic extremism and I don't respect Islamic extremism but my interpretation of human nature tells me that foreign demonizing of them will strengthen them. They need to be able to say that Islam is under attack in order to rally people to Islam's defense. The American Christian right needs to be able to say that traditional family values are under attack in order to rally people to American traditionalisms defense.
I don't want the USA trying to run the world thereby making enemies and bankrupting itself. This puts me at odds with the coalition that wants the USA throwing it's weight around. Part of this coalition that wants the USA throwing it's weight around is the militant Israel supporters.
I just don't see the increase in hatred of Jews that you refer to. Israel may have fallen off it's pedestal among the American left but supporters of Islam did not accomplish that. Israel did that to itself by ignoring justice for underdogs. Israel still thinks they are the underdog even as they are proud of their strength.
There is no way to stop the radical indoctrination by force unless you put genocide on the table.
Since we are not going to put genocide on the table the best way to stop these people from acting like we are their enemy is to stop acting like we are their enemies. Hamas and Likud strengthen each other by creating the fear and hatred that they need as the parties that claim to be the more vigilant protectors of the people from the enemy.
Your attitude lucysnow does not weaken Islamic extremism. Your attitude strengthens Islamic extremism.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
@Michael
The question is not whether one fights but how one fights. If armed confrontation works against ones aims, if anti jewish comments works against ones aims then its reasonable to suggest that one changes ones tactics.
The question is not whether one fights but how one fights. If armed confrontation works against ones aims, if anti jewish comments works against ones aims then its reasonable to suggest that one changes ones tactics.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
@Niraka
Is the term 'islamophobia' a negative term? Islamo fascism is used to describe radical extremist ideology, its that ideology I find negative not the use of 'islamofascism'.
The rhetoric against jews came out of the mouth of the MSA student who agreed it is better to have all the jews in one place so one doesn't have to hunt them down globally. Jewish hatred is projected when infers that there is something wrong with 'jewishness'.
You've said a lot but you haven't answered these questions:
Do you believe that there are seemingly benign looking muslim organizations that actually help foster and promote extremism and offer a segue-way towards terrorist acts? Radical indoctrination and ridiculous hatred towards jews and other people in society is being fostered somehow, so how do you think it is happening?
Because it is this is that addresses whether a group like the MSA is worthy of attention. Blaming radical islam or my attitude or the attitude of jews or westerners is simply passing the buck, a way of not taking responsibility of what fringe elements are growing within Islam or within muslim communities. Its not my attitude that has western artists on hit lists, its not my attitude that encourages violence against artists because they are exercising their freedom of speech. When a group of muslim radicals gets on the streets of London and describes the UK or the West as a toilet, as dirty etc. and how the wrath of allah should come down of their heads, or that their soldiers should all die, no one goes out to bash their heads in. When muslims make videos where you have a mullah making a ridiculous comment such as 'danish women like to sleep with dogs' I don't see Danish men hunting him down to kill them, they are allowed their freedom to use inflammatory speech, yet an artist or a writer or a cartoonist makes a comment about Islam and suddenly they need special protection. Did you see a rush to the stage by Jews when the MSA student said that she hopes for a second holocaust? No. So sorry but again I think you are in denial of what is really going on and simply taking offense at any criticism against Islam even when it is valid.
Is the term 'islamophobia' a negative term? Islamo fascism is used to describe radical extremist ideology, its that ideology I find negative not the use of 'islamofascism'.
The rhetoric against jews came out of the mouth of the MSA student who agreed it is better to have all the jews in one place so one doesn't have to hunt them down globally. Jewish hatred is projected when infers that there is something wrong with 'jewishness'.
You've said a lot but you haven't answered these questions:
Do you believe that there are seemingly benign looking muslim organizations that actually help foster and promote extremism and offer a segue-way towards terrorist acts? Radical indoctrination and ridiculous hatred towards jews and other people in society is being fostered somehow, so how do you think it is happening?
Because it is this is that addresses whether a group like the MSA is worthy of attention. Blaming radical islam or my attitude or the attitude of jews or westerners is simply passing the buck, a way of not taking responsibility of what fringe elements are growing within Islam or within muslim communities. Its not my attitude that has western artists on hit lists, its not my attitude that encourages violence against artists because they are exercising their freedom of speech. When a group of muslim radicals gets on the streets of London and describes the UK or the West as a toilet, as dirty etc. and how the wrath of allah should come down of their heads, or that their soldiers should all die, no one goes out to bash their heads in. When muslims make videos where you have a mullah making a ridiculous comment such as 'danish women like to sleep with dogs' I don't see Danish men hunting him down to kill them, they are allowed their freedom to use inflammatory speech, yet an artist or a writer or a cartoonist makes a comment about Islam and suddenly they need special protection. Did you see a rush to the stage by Jews when the MSA student said that she hopes for a second holocaust? No. So sorry but again I think you are in denial of what is really going on and simply taking offense at any criticism against Islam even when it is valid.
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That's why I suggest they convert to Judaism and then seek legal entry.
when you feel backed up into a corner with no escape ever instinct cries out to attack; when your trapped every fiber of your being screams out for violence against those trapping you or any one near by. when every other option is exhausted reason demands one forge plowshares to swords and beat the drums of war.
So you would demand they give a core aspect of their being to placate the thugs who abuse them?
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Well that for me is a side issue. I don't see why anyone has to convert to any religion or any other religion. Sam is going to come along any second and ask why Jewish Israeli's didn't simply convert to islam so...
right with you the problem is the existence of very real human reactions in muslims
Thanks for the Generation Jihad links, Lucy. Another example of marvelous journalism from the BBC, and I enjoyed watching all the episodes. But as with most things, how we perceive things depends so much on our personal backgrounds.
Certain indigenous people are included in the introductory episode, with mention of the National Front and the like. I wonder if you missed the point of that. Are indigenous communities in Britain similarly infected but otherwise benign in your view?
To me, the series provides a more nuanced glimpse than you described, that included perspectives of several ethnic communities. The episodes focus mostly on immigrants of Pakistani Muslim origins, but interestingly it mentions some of the problems that have been experienced in the UK with disaffected white non-Muslims.
Is the violence really a phenomenon arising from Islam- or could it a be a more broadly human phenomenon of radicalization into violence, that has long been occuring among people of any religions/no religions who are impacted by the global psychological currents of conflict? Maybe you passed it off as the BBC being merely politically correct when they made mention of other "infections" beyond Muslim and Pakistani communities.
I think that mention was an important acknowledgement of the reality that the source of these outbreaks of violence and antisocial behavor is not Islam- These outbreaks are expressions of an identical phenomenon that has been expressed by radicalized generations of various creeds, colors, and generations.
Similarly, if we take the support for genocide that Jumanah al-Bahri expressed for genocide, and assign Islam as the source of her ethnic hatred, then we're looking at the phenomenon of such reactionism as if through a straw. In many cultures and religions we can see a percentage of young people who are exposed to injustice, and who are seeking meaning for their lives ahead- and some become radicalized- it's not a phenomenon unique to Islam.
If we lose track of this wider reality in focusing on a particular strain of "infection", then we're not really contributing to a realistic social hygiene that can be effective in preventing such radicalization. In my view, those who make mistake of attributing this phenomenon to one religion contribute to the problem.
David Horowitz is dead, and I don't know where Miss al-Bahri is. But their conversation needs to be continued in a patient and rational process. I think that it would be beneficial for us to continue it into a broader understanding of the more universal dynamic that leads to bombs on trains, genocide recurring, and other crimes of collective anger that we can clearly see (if we take a broad enough view) has involved other categories of people than Palestinians and Muslims.
Just as disturbed individuals can benefit from the talking cure in psychological therapy, I believe that public conversations can have a benefit in the widest imaginable of audiences. We've got a lot of hurt to talk through in the big picture, but when we zoom out enough in our consciousnesses to overcome our common tunnel-vision, I think we'll find the truer and more lasting answers for reducing and healing the radicalization response to the traumas and injustices that are sending psychological tsunamis all over our world.
Certain indigenous people are included in the introductory episode, with mention of the National Front and the like. I wonder if you missed the point of that. Are indigenous communities in Britain similarly infected but otherwise benign in your view?
To me, the series provides a more nuanced glimpse than you described, that included perspectives of several ethnic communities. The episodes focus mostly on immigrants of Pakistani Muslim origins, but interestingly it mentions some of the problems that have been experienced in the UK with disaffected white non-Muslims.
Is the violence really a phenomenon arising from Islam- or could it a be a more broadly human phenomenon of radicalization into violence, that has long been occuring among people of any religions/no religions who are impacted by the global psychological currents of conflict? Maybe you passed it off as the BBC being merely politically correct when they made mention of other "infections" beyond Muslim and Pakistani communities.
I think that mention was an important acknowledgement of the reality that the source of these outbreaks of violence and antisocial behavor is not Islam- These outbreaks are expressions of an identical phenomenon that has been expressed by radicalized generations of various creeds, colors, and generations.
Similarly, if we take the support for genocide that Jumanah al-Bahri expressed for genocide, and assign Islam as the source of her ethnic hatred, then we're looking at the phenomenon of such reactionism as if through a straw. In many cultures and religions we can see a percentage of young people who are exposed to injustice, and who are seeking meaning for their lives ahead- and some become radicalized- it's not a phenomenon unique to Islam.
If we lose track of this wider reality in focusing on a particular strain of "infection", then we're not really contributing to a realistic social hygiene that can be effective in preventing such radicalization. In my view, those who make mistake of attributing this phenomenon to one religion contribute to the problem.
David Horowitz is dead, and I don't know where Miss al-Bahri is. But their conversation needs to be continued in a patient and rational process. I think that it would be beneficial for us to continue it into a broader understanding of the more universal dynamic that leads to bombs on trains, genocide recurring, and other crimes of collective anger that we can clearly see (if we take a broad enough view) has involved other categories of people than Palestinians and Muslims.
Just as disturbed individuals can benefit from the talking cure in psychological therapy, I believe that public conversations can have a benefit in the widest imaginable of audiences. We've got a lot of hurt to talk through in the big picture, but when we zoom out enough in our consciousnesses to overcome our common tunnel-vision, I think we'll find the truer and more lasting answers for reducing and healing the radicalization response to the traumas and injustices that are sending psychological tsunamis all over our world.
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No lucy your wrong germany, south africa, and Israel have no right to exist. germans, jews, and what ever ethnicties reside in south africa do. a state's right to exist is a by product of the right to exist of the legiatimate residents exercizing their right to self determination.
No, but it's what most people do when living under occupation. So in that sense its a common coping strategy that seems to result in some long term success (in a sense).
Examples include the Persian Zoroastrians or Hindu Indians whose descendants are now Shia and Sunni Muslims or the Native Americans whose great great grand kids are Christian.
It might not be fair, but, that's life and personally I see it as a better life option at this stage in the game.
I don't see the Palestinians winning the Hearts and Minds of the worlds citizens. IMO most people don't particularly care for either Islamic or Jewish Philosophy. It's like choosing to support WASPs over Black Panthers. You'd rather not.
So my advice - convert to Judaism and seek legal entry. Although this may be difficult. There was a BBC doco of a Palestinian Muslim family seeking to do exactly this and they weren't getting anywhere with it. They actually had some Jewish religious regalia passed down from their family and had a good argument they were originally Jewish. It would have set a precedent and so it seemed BOTH sides were preventing them from following that avenue.
I'd try to get to the USA or Europe, convert, move back. If it's possible.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Yes I did see the part when the NF were featured. How where they featured? They were featured as a rise among English youths after the rise of immigrant populations. Outside of that 1 minute mention they don't focus on it at all!!! Why? Because its not international terrorism. The NF attacked young pakistanis and this was how that particular group was first exposed to racism in the UK. The NF were gangs and hoodlums and engaged mostly in random attacks on other youths many of whom were also gangs. Here is what they never became, they never became a terror group that went as far as to pose a threat to national security. They didn't randomly attack society by planting bombs. The gangs ideology was not being passed on in Churches or at universities, the NF is not an ideological group, it was simply a bunch of young guys saying 'oy get the pakis out of england' and all that rubbish, outside of their romper stomper outfits they couldn't put together a political agenda even if you did teach them how to read and write correctly!!! The NF petered out over time like most local gangs. The BNP rose to the surface but they engage politically and surprise surprise they don't plant bombs in mosques
The program also focused on American and Canadian and chechen muslim youths who were influenced by radical islamic ideology and also converts who attempted attacks based on such ideology. Did they feature the crips and the bloods? No. Because those, like the NF are examples of isolated gang violence, not an international radical ideology that threatens the lives of thousands ALL OVER THE WORLD.
Hypewaders: Is the violence really a phenomenon arising from Islam- or could it a be a more broadly human phenomenon of radicalization into violence, that has long been occuring among people of any religions/no religions who are impacted by the global psychological currents of conflict?
Yes it does arise from Islam, the radical fringe interpretation of islam and if you really did watch the whole documentary you would know that it is presented as such. The ideology does arise from a politicized Islam and not a more 'broad human phenomenon'. The documentary isn't called 'radical movements throughout the ages' it called 'generation jihad'. We are not dealing today with radical socialists or radical communists. The BBC does not focus on other groups outside of Islam as I point out to you above, as a matter of fact can you name any other international terror campaign that is presently not islamic in origin? The fact that a former drug addict can become radicalized doesn't negate the fact that a young man who is not an addict and comes from a loving upper middle class family can also become radicalized. Stop trying to soften radical islam by pretending its a bunch of disaffected youth.
Did you also see the part where the families were in complete denial? Did you also notice the part where these poor poor pity on me youths were going to Pakistan to seek out training?
Did you completely miss the part where a muslim writer and scholar sits and says that the muslim community are in denial and that it is 90% a muslim problem and that they must take responsibility?
What about the part where muslim women were sitting around complaining about police scrutiny on their community only to go through an exercise on what they would do if they were counter intelligence only to discover that their soft approach was inadequate?
Did you miss those parts?:shrug:
Your post seems to me like nothing more but more buck passing and unwillingness to address a cancer growing within Islam. Basically as the muslim writer stated 'a denial and unwillingness to accept responsibility'. All you present is a way of saying 'this is isn't really happening among muslim youths. Its just some broad abstract phenomenon' which is bullocks and isn't even a proper assessment of the BBC's investigation.
Stop making fucking excuses for it! Do you make an excuse for Israeli settlers? What about the Irgun? What about US response to 9/11? No! So stop making excuses for radical islam. It just makes the muslim community look ridiculous.
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I see no reason for Jewish Israelis to convert to any religion - they are barely Jewish to begin with. Did you know Jerusalem is not mentioned anywhere in the Torah? Its just some more myth they have attached to the religion. It would simply be enough if their ethnocentism was not deleterious to anyone else. Its like the caste system. I don't care if you think being upper caste makes you special, so long as you are not forcing other people to drink from wells with dead animals in them.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Of course not. Neither do I. I'm not sure why Michael would think that a solution.
He probably thinks the native Americans abandoning their culture and religion in favour of those who colonised them would have made life easier. I don't think he understands what it means to have your language, society and culture taken over by a foreign one, especially under force. Its the one sure way to strengthen any identity, even one that did not exist until "the other" was forced upon them.
Mrs.Lucysnow
Valued Senior Member
Palestinians losing culture, language etc is not the answer to human rights abuse nor would it solve the civil liberties issue. It also wouldn't make Israel safer in the region. It sounds more like either a pipe dream or a simplification of the problems in the region and in Israel proper.
Palestinians are not losing culture or language. Quite the reverse, actually, they still follow ancient customs which Jews recognise and have names descended from old Jewish ones. And most Israeli customs, food, dress etc are borrowed from Palestinian culture. Even the Hebrew they now speak is not the liturgical one and has borrowed words from Palestinian languages.
I would need to see how it's being used before I decide if it is negative.
I have an idea how that word is usually used and I suggest you find another word because that word seems to have been created for the purpose of demonization.
I interpreted that as exasperated sarcasm when I watched the video. Knowing a few Arabs slightly helps me recognize that delivery in the video. The other Hitler youth comment was clear sarcasm. In my opinion the only reason you hear about this girl/young woman is because she was can be easily misinterpreted in a way that is useful to those who want to spread the belief in Islamofascism the boogeyman rather than fear of Islamic extremism the reality. My post 99 was my reaction to the video linked to in the OP. My interpretation is that she came to the meeting because she resented the mischaracterization of the MSA as an extremist group and she ended up being used to further that characterization.
Even the nutcases who talk about the Rothschilds control of the Federal Reserve don't say there is anything wrong with Jewishness. When I was a child there were traces of the pre WW2 style antisemitism around. As far as I can tell antisemitism has never been weaker in the USA than it is now.
Anything that helps extremists feel like they are not extremists helps the harder core extremists build the conviction to act. You could see that in the subculture that helped Timothy McVeigh build the conviction to bomb in Oklahoma.
Cracking down on the groups that sympathize with terrorists won't help. Horowitz is not weakening the MSAs he is radicalizing them.
I don't know. I also don't know if there is a growing ridiculous hatred of Jews. This growing hatred has not gone main stream yet like the hatred of Mexicans and Muslims. I won't fault Jews for hypervigilance given their history.
Muslim student groups might increase the politicization of otherwise materially minded Muslim students.
I do think there is some attempt to use guilt about Jewish history in the West and fear caused by Jewish history among Jews to advance the cause of those who claim to be the defenders of Jews
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I think your attitude multiplied by millions who share your attitude is partially responsible for radicalizing Muslims.
Do you think Pol Pot government's hatred came from nowhere and was completely irrational and not a backlash? I see semi-rational backlashes against backlashes against backlashes against backlashes as being how cultural hostility propagates.
There is a non stop drum beat of hostility towards Islam. The London Muslims grew up with hostility towards them. It was racial hostility not anti-Islamic hostility but it helped create a ripe atmosphere for Islamic nuttyness.
The majority Western hostility towards Islam which you are part of would naturally play into the hands of the Islamic Extremists and help them argue against Muslim moderates.
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