My statement of belief (so far)

[spidergoat]

How pathetic.

I envy those who have been granted to believe, and I am not proud of this envy.

What's so special about people that have belief? Their culture demands understanding the complex, wonderous and multifaceted universe with a single specific metaphor, a horrible and limiting way of being. There is nothing to envy about it. Their brains are locked into the Christian reality-tunnel, when it could be free to examine their unique position as an intelligent life form from any angle they wish. There is a certain amount of comfort in turning your brain off, I grant that, but it's not what Jesus was talking about. God is beyond understanding, thus beyond belief. Do not envy them. Until they give up belief, they will never succeed as the devine beings we all are.

Gospel of Thomas, vs. 17.
Jesus said, "I shall give you what no eye has seen and what
no ear has heard and what no hand has touched and what has never
occurred to the human mind."

 

[Joeman]

Water,

You cannot be a Christian any more if you have fallen away. Look at this verse.

“For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame” (Hebrews 6:3-6).

 

[water]

stretched,

Thanks for clarifying. I really love your honesty. And I believe "honesty" is the key to the spiritual. Keep on searching but always keep in mind, life is to be enjoyed. In the end, the answers are really simple.

And you know how it is, in the end?

My bet is too, that "the whole thing is very simple".


* * *

SkippingStones,

Yes I think so. At least, I want them to change. However, I am not sure if I want that out of selfishness or if I really think their lives would be better if they believed something else. I do not want them to suffer, and for many them to lose faith would be to suffer.

I do not think we can ever fully understand another person or what they believe, and it is possible that they have a beautiful knowledge of something, but a clumsy way to say it. So while they maybe sound wrong, they may be right.


* * *

Sushupti,

Did you ever study any other religions, Water? That's probably ideal right about now...

Yes, I have peeked into that a bit. And I find it absurd that I should go about the empirical way and personally try out the I don't know how many thousand religions and philosophies that are out there.
There ought to be some other way.


* * *

Light Travelling,

The tricky part is in separating the truth from false. I normally find that this comes down to a question of form versus content. Try stripping the outer form and ceremony from religion and the underlying content is usually the good stuff.

Exactly. This is my leading premise.


* * *


cool skill,

You are an Agnostic.

You would probably do better as an atheist. They fanatically resent religion. You would do better to go around imposing self righteous attitudes, and shoving atheist doctrine down people's throats.

Alright. THAT'S IT. I SAID BEFORE THAT IF YOU TELL ME TO GO JOIN THE ATHEISTS ONCE MORE, I WILL PRAY TO GOD TO SMITE YOU WITH A SIGN THAT YOU WILL HAVE FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE, FOR YOUR TRYING TO MISLEAD A PERSON.
You've crossed the line here.


* * *

glaucon,

And this is different from a Deist's behaviour in what way?

Deists are rather lazy about preaching about god ... Some theists can be feisty though.


* * *

marv,

I think that proof of a devine creator(s) is immaterial until first there is a reasoned and logical argument presented that there is in fact a need for one beyond the ad nauseum question of "...where did everything come from..." or "...why did this happen...".

You are free to happily resort to "everything is relative and nothing ultimately makes sense".

We humans tend to be curious creatures and demand a catechism. Too often our unanswered questions of actions and events are put in the filing cabinet drawer labled "Deities" for satisfaction.

It all depends on what those deities do and how they are.


* * *

Adstar,

Well. You want me to persevere with you as long as i do not try to do everything i can to convicnce you of what i believe is the truth? That i do not stand up for Salvation through the Messiah Jesus?

Where have I said that I want you to persevere with me, as long as you don't try to do everything you can to convince me of what you believe is the truth?

But who is to set the pace and the standard, me or you?

Are you playing some psychological war game water?

That's just great. It is the most innocent that are considered the most devilish. There is obviously some evil in the lack of ulterior motives ...


* * *

spidergoat,

How pathetic.

Yes, you big fat Buddha sitting under a tree giggling at butterflies!

What's so special about people that have belief?

Try to DO something without explicitly acting on some belief.

Their culture demands understanding the complex, wonderous and multifaceted universe with a single specific metaphor, a horrible and limiting way of being. There is nothing to envy about it. Their brains are locked into the Christian reality-tunnel, when it could be free to examine their unique position as an intelligent life form from any angle they wish. There is a certain amount of comfort in turning your brain off, I grant that, but it's not what Jesus was talking about. God is beyond understanding, thus beyond belief.

To me, this is a strawman. While some people certainly abuse religion as you you say above, I do not think this is the right way to employ religion.

Do not envy them. Until they give up belief, they will never succeed as the devine beings we all are.

Well, dear, I have troubles seeing my "divinity". Maybe you can help me.

“ Gospel of Thomas, vs. 17.
Jesus said, "I shall give you what no eye has seen and what
no ear has heard and what no hand has touched and what has never
occurred to the human mind." ”

That's nice.

 

[marv]

I think that proof of a devine creator(s) is immaterial until first there is a reasoned and logical argument presented that there is in fact a need for one beyond the ad nauseum question of "...where did everything come from..." or "...why did this happen...".

You are free to happily resort to "everything is relative and nothing ultimately makes sense".

You do understand English, don't you, water? I said nothing about "relativity" or nothing making sense.

The correct response to an unknown question is not "...it's god's will...", but "...we just don't know - yet..."

 

[Godless]

Water, Soul searching is one thing that one does on it's own, each of us have found our own answers that suits our psychi. You must do the same, searching for answers or ideas in a forum, is not a very appropiate way for some, to get to know the self.

This is basically what I perceive in your attitude. No one can lead you to your own enlightenment. That has to come from your own research, imagination, and epistemology that will lead you to believe whatever you will be happy in believing.

Atheists don't have answers, they only like me refuse to believe religious rhetoric. Seems that you have the same problem. You inquire "what is it that they feel or believe?" to us they are just full of mystical ideals of which none can be proven, mostly assertions without any evidence. That is what faith in supernatural is to us.

As an atheist, I'm happy, I feel no quilt for not believing in a supreme deity, I can tell you though that I didn't become an atheist overnight, it was not an easy decision, and it was hard at first to accept, what I considered to be now a truth. That religious dogmas were spawned out of ingnorance. They are basically an ancient atempt at metaphisical concepts. There are some good lessons in religion on living a moral life. But religion does not hold the patten on morality. If one were to look at the moral lessons of religion mostly is plain common sense.

But at least you are intellegent enough to search for your own way, most just accept any dish that is thrown at them, with out taking a look at what others may have to offer.

Godless.

 

[spidergoat]

I think water is worried that if she could make herself believe, then what can't she make herself believe. The only thing we have to go on is our own intuition, and her's says don't believe, but she doesn't trust herself, she would rather give up her powers of discrimination to some authority. This is like hiring someone else to have sex for you.

Yes, you big fat Buddha sitting under a tree giggling at butterflies!

Damn fucking right.
:m:

 

[Raithere]

While in science, one can afford such agnosticism, this doesn't work in psychological or spiritual matters. There, one needs a firm ground to stand on, or one will be a characterless twit and turn as the wind blows.

Then perhaps what you are looking for is a philosophical position from which you may entertain a variety of possibilities without twisting in the wind. It sounds to me like you're trying to resolve the entire conundrum in one shot... I don't believe that can be done if you're being intellectually honest.

I am unable to discard it, and unable to accept it. It is a possibility, and just that, and this bugs me. I am sick of intellectual possibilities; I want something constant and reliable.

Search more broadly and look for congruencies. There are broad patterns throughout the major religions and philosophies that you can probably accept as general truths. After that how you express those beliefs, the trappings of religion, aren't quite as important. They are merely various expressions of a deeper truth. Like different painters depicting the same view.

You're also going to have to learn to trust your own judgment. You hit upon a key issue early on in the "I Hate Christians" thread; religious experience is a strictly personal and subjective matter. It cannot be taught any more than you can teach someone what the experience of love is. Codification of such an experience is simply nonsense. That is why there are so many different interpretations in the first place. Don't worry about the experience of others, trust your own.

~Raithere

 

[Crunchy Cat]

My statement of belief (so far)


As some of you have seen, I have been rather upset lately, esp. in that "I hate Christians" thread, and I owe you an explanation.


I know I probably look like someone sitting on a fence and not going either way, and it looks like I support beliefs as they come to my convenience.

I have a certain grasp of Christianity. Some things I can speak about very convincingly.

I would make a hollow claim if I would say that I believe all those things to be true for myself.
This is NOT to say I find them false. I have just not been granted to believe them, and no amount of intellectual understanding can make a person believe in an acting God, unless God grants them so.

Intellectual understanding and belief are two different things. One can intellectually understand something, but not believe it. And there need be no ulterior motive in this.

I envy those who have been granted to believe, and I am not proud of this envy. I keep thinking what those of you had done, how you have earned that faith, and why it doesn't work for me. I understand this envy comes from a long tradition of conditioning people into believing that faith is somehow a person's own doing, and that those who have faith, have it all due their own choice, and it is to their own credit. Which is dubious, as it completely leaves the acting God out of the picture.


I do not argue for arguing's sake, I wish this were over, as I am tired and bored of it. But the issue desires to be settled, and I cannot just sweep it under the rug. It doesn't stay there. I have tried to resolve it myself, in private, but to no avail. So I turn to the audience here, maybe you can aid in some way or another.


Those of you who find my imperfection repugnant – there's the ignore button.

The rest, I thank you for your effort so far, and ask you to continue and have patience with me.


*

Put it all to the side and explore truth no matter how attractive or ugly it is.

 

[water]

marv,

You do understand English, don't you, water? I said nothing about "relativity" or nothing making sense.

The correct response to an unknown question is not "...it's god's will...", but "...we just don't know - yet..."

Insisting on the everlasting "not yet" is relativism. Once you insist on a "not yet", you're likely to be trapped in it forever.
This, and what you are making above is a false dichotomy.


* * *


Godless,

Water, Soul searching is one thing that one does on it's own, each of us have found our own answers that suits our psychi. You must do the same, searching for answers or ideas in a forum, is not a very appropiate way for some, to get to know the self.

I have done it apart from others, but to no avail, and my reasearch had lead me here.
I am enough trained in discourse that I know how to employ other people's minds to help me think. One can't do everything on one's own.

This is basically what I perceive in your attitude. No one can lead you to your own enlightenment. That has to come from your own research, imagination, and epistemology that will lead you to believe whatever you will be happy in believing.

Well, I'm sorry but I could utter words so ugly here that my all the soap in the world could not wash my mouth clean again. "Whatever I will be happy in believing." No shit.


* * *

spidergoat,

I think water is worried that if she could make herself believe, then what can't she make herself believe.

That's right. Techincally, one could believe pretty much anything.

The only thing we have to go on is our own intuition, and her's says don't believe, but she doesn't trust herself, she would rather give up her powers of discrimination to some authority.

But what authority? My own has failed me so far.


* * *


Raithere,

Then perhaps what you are looking for is a philosophical position from which you may entertain a variety of possibilities without twisting in the wind. It sounds to me like you're trying to resolve the entire conundrum in one shot... I don't believe that can be done if you're being intellectually honest.

But this is exactly it! To resolve the entire cunundrum in one shot! What was that about the Tao? Hm?

This of course doesn't mean that whenever encountering a dilemma, one resorts to "Oh, it's the Tao, and now let's just move on". But I believe it is possible to hold such a position from which one can address anything, without being undermined by it.

Don't worry about the experience of others, trust your own.

You had better not told *me* that.
My experience is that of condemnation, violence and rejection. To trust this? Maybe I should become a Nazi or somesuch.


* * *

Crunchy Cat,

Put it all to the side and explore truth no matter how attractive or ugly it is.

And then what? Will the truth make me happy?

 

[Crunchy Cat]

Crunchy Cat,




And then what? Will the truth make me happy?

I don't know, and what you decide to do with it can definately make you happy.

 

[Godless]

Well, I'm sorry but I could utter words so ugly here that my all the soap in the world could not wash my mouth clean again. "Whatever I will be happy in believing." No shit.

Dish it out girl, hell I can take it. I've had worst.

This only shows your nature, spill your beans of discust on some that may try to help you.

That is why I said: (no one can lead you to were you want to be) That has to come from your own efforts. I see people here trying to help you out, and all I see is rebuttal of negativity from you. Search your own self were or what you are going to believe, no one can lead you to this.

Coin your own frase of "ism", much like Huxley did. Then be content in your own nitch.

Godless.

 

[water]

Godless,

This only shows your nature, spill your beans of discust on some that may try to help you.

That is why I said: (no one can lead you to were you want to be) That has to come from your own efforts. I see people here trying to help you out, and all I see is rebuttal of negativity from you.

It's not that I am ungrateful or negativistic on purpose, please don't think so.
I am skeptical though -- just like any proper empiricist ought to be. And look where it leads to!

Search your own self were or what you are going to believe, no one can lead you to this.

I could believe in anything. That's the problem. I have a heap of theories that all seem equally probable; and if I am to rely on my experience, then I better get ready for an eternity in hell.

Coin your own frase of "ism", much like Huxley did. Then be content in your own nitch.

All good, but it never worked for me.
I sometimes think I must be cursed or something.

 

[Godless]

I sometimes think I must be cursed or something.

You are not cursed.

Most atheist were at one time or another much in the same dilema. That is if they were truly seeking truth.

I went through many sleepless nights and had horrible stress, when I undertook the study of philosphy, I had to find my ownself and even after I decided to be an atheist, on that aspect of my life, there was still much stress and confusion on other parts of my life. I was a drug addict, I lived the lifestyle of the drug scene for 19 years of my life, till I almost lost my life, in overdose. I've overcome great obstacles, and finally I feel content. Though contentness is not in monetary riches, because I dont have that, contentness to me is to find a purpose to your own life. This purpose can be very personal, or it can be shared with others. I don't worry about life after death, I don't believe that there's such a thing. That is a tool of manipulation, to manipulate the gulible in whatever some religious dogma deems proper, moral, ethical, etc..

Aristotle was asked once "what is the purpose of life" he answered. To be happy. Thus this is even writen in our own constitution, in some way.

click

Godless

 

[Raithere]

But this is exactly it! To resolve the entire cunundrum in one shot! What was that about the Tao? Hm?

Tao is not about resolution but about acceptance.

This of course doesn't mean that whenever encountering a dilemma, one resorts to "Oh, it's the Tao, and now let's just move on". But I believe it is possible to hold such a position from which one can address anything, without being undermined by it.

Actually, that isn't really a bad way of describing it. A central principle of Tao is wu wei which is to let nature take it's course; it is the recognition of unity. It may not be a philosophy you can translate but don't worry about that. The point is that, no matter the philosophy, were talking about something that cannot truly be defined.

My experience is that of condemnation, violence and rejection. To trust this?

I'm sorry to hear that. I was referring to religious experience rather than life experience but you'll need to resolve this as well. I would guess that it is already factor in your inability to resolve certain issues.

What I'm noticing is that you almost seem to be approaching this from the outside in. It sounds like you're trying to force yourself to accept someone else's philosophy and are getting frustrated when you find they don't quite fit. You'll have to work towards it the other way around. Find those principles that fit you, reject those that do not. Don't worry about their source. Don't worry that you find picking and choosing between points. You are the measure. That's what I mean by trusting yourself.

Why don't we put the question another way; what is that you expect from a philosophy aside from a stable position from which to perceive the world? What would a philosophy have to entail that would make it acceptable? What is unacceptable?

~Raithere