New, Improved Obamacare Program Released On 35 Floppy Disks

One thing I don't understand was, when this all began, before ObamaCare, there were 30 million people in USA without health care. In a country of 300Million, that meant 90% had health care. Why mess the 90% up?

Why not target the 30 million and leave the 90% alone? That is called efficiency since the 90% is not costing the tax payer anything. Of that 30 million, half are young people who do not buy health insurance since they are in their prime, not sickly and prefer to spend that money on partying. That leaves 15 million to care for. So why screw up the whole system, instead of targeting just where there was need?

I would have expanded the VA to include the 15 million civilians casualties. Was it incompetence or something else that desired to make it all more wasteful?
 
One thing I don't understand was, when this all began, before ObamaCare, there were 30 million people in USA without health care. In a country of 300Million, that meant 90% had health care. Why mess the 90% up?

Why not target the 30 million and leave the 90% alone? That is called efficiency since the 90% is not costing the tax payer anything. Of that 30 million, half are young people who do not buy health insurance since they are in their prime, not sickly and prefer to spend that money on partying. That leaves 15 million to care for. So why screw up the whole system, instead of targeting just where there was need?

Well for starters you need to get your numbers straight. In 2009 there were 48.6 million people without healthcare insurance in the US which accounted for almost 16% of the population. So that means that 84% of the population had health insurance. But that doesn’t mean they all had adequate healthcare insurance. A good portion of that 84% had mini health insurance policies which only cover a few thousand dollars of coverage at most. Actually, only about 55% of Americans had employer based healthcare insurance and that number has been decreasing. And the remaining 30% of the population had government provided healthcare insurance.

The total number of people with health insurance has been declining as healthcare costs have continued to rise at multiples of the income growth. You don’t have be a math genius to figure out that is not a sustainable situation. The United States has dealt with the healthcare cost problem by shifting costs rather than dealing with the causes, the real drivers of runaway healthcare costs. Healthcare cost for the elderly, the young, and the poor have been shifted to government. Healthcare costs for the employed have been and continue to be shifted from the employer to the employee.

“The number of persons without health insurance coverage in the United States is one of the primary concerns raised by advocates of health care reform. A person without health insurance is commonly termed uninsured (regardless of insurance of objects unrelated to health), and this article uses the term in this sense as well. According to the United States Census Bureau, in 2009 there were 48.6 million people in the US (15.7% of the population) who were without health insurance.[2] The percentage of the non-elderly population who are uninsured has been generally increasing since the year 2000.[3]

The causes of this rate of uninsurance remain a matter of political debate. Rising insurance costs have contributed to a trend in which fewer employers are offering health insurance, and many employers are managing costs by requiring higher employee contributions. Many of the uninsured are the working poor or are unemployed. Others are healthy and choose to go without it. Some have been rejected by insurance companies and are considered "uninsurable". Some are without health insurance only temporarily. Some choose faith-based alternatives to health insurance.” – Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_insurance_coverage_in_the_United_States

This may come as a surprise to you but young healthy people get sick too. Young healthy people also get hurt. Contrary to right wing popular opinion, young people are not immortals. I used to work as an EMT for a county EMS agency. The vast majority of my patients were young formerly healthy individuals. I have always had health insurance, even in my youth. Being fiscally responsible, I couldn’t imagine not having it, even when I was in my twenties. My son who is in his 20’s takes his healthcare insurance seriously too. It factors into his career decisions as it did mine. One more thing, partying and being fiscally responsible are not mutually exclusive.

What strikes me as strange is the fact that Republicans/conservatives seem to think that people have a constitutionally protected right to be irresponsible as demonstrated by your statement that money is better spent on partying that providing for an individual’s health and safety. It is the part of the hypocrisy that is the Republican/conservative movement. You guys by your actions (e.g. debt ceiling & government shut down debacles, deregulation, opposition to cost saving healthcare reforms and unfunded Bush II spending and tax reductions) are fiscally irresponsible, and then proclaim yourselves to be fiscally responsible). It's sad, but it is also funny in a sad sort of way.

What you and your fellow Republicans/conservatives or whatever else you are calling yourselves these days, don’t understand and don’t want to understand is our current healthcare system is really screwed up. Our healthcare costs are more than twice as expensive as that of other wealthy nations. And we only provide coverage to an ever decreasing portion of our population. And our outcomes, the quality of our healthcare is declining when compared to the care received by residents in other wealthy industrial countries. Those are the real and hard facts people like you continue to ignore and prefer to remain ignorant of.

I would have expanded the VA to include the 15 million civilians casualties. Was it incompetence or something else that desired to make it all more wasteful?

Aside from incorrect numbers, that paragraph doesn’t make any sense at all.
 
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Government funded loans were and are subsidized by the government.... it’s simple math.
LOL

Where does the "Government" get it's money from Joe? The "Government" doesn't 'subsidize' anything. It redistributes other people's money - and takes a nice hefty 20% or more surcharge for doing so.
 
LOL

Where does the "Government" get it's money from Joe? The "Government" doesn't 'subsidize' anything. It redistributes other people's money - and takes a nice hefty 20% or more surcharge for doing so.

Yeah, LOL, I am not surprised you missed the whole point which was recipients of government funded student loans are not paying the full cost of their loans or the education they receive. They are getting assistance from the government (i.e. the tax payer).
 
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations has been 200 years. These nations have progressed through this sequence: From bondage to spiritual faith; From spiritual faith to great courage; From courage to liberty; From liberty to abundance; From abundance to selfishness; From selfishness to apathy; From apathy to dependence; From dependence back into bondage.”

- Alexander Fraser Tytler (1770)

According to PolitiFact: The percentage of Americans "who depend on some form of federal payment" is indeed "a little less than 50 percent," -- it was 48.5 percent in 2010. If anything, the ongoing rise in usage of food stamps and other federal assistance programs may have pushed this number higher, and adding in tax refunds from the Earned Income Tax Credit or agricultural subsidies could push the number higher still.

With our Dear Leaders in "Government" subsidizing the building of ANOTHER brandnew NSA spy center estimated cost is (oh, I mean Governmental 'subsidizing' of the military industrial complex) at $1.2 Billion. You know, because some GoatF*cker in a cave somewhere who can barely read and write is planning to take away your freedom. HA!!! LOL.... take away your freedom. Pfffff.... nice. George Porgey did have a sense of humor after all. He and Oblahblah probably share a good laugh on the Privately Owned golf courses they like to frequent regarding the ignorance of the average American voter.
 
Yeah, LOL, I am not surprised you missed the whole point which was recipients of government funded student loans are not paying the full cost of their loans or the education they receive. They are getting assistance from the government (i.e. the tax payer).
The Tax Payer! Hahahaha! The American Tax payer hasn't been paying his way in decades.


But speaking of Government subsidized education, I was listening to a lawyer being interviewed on the ABC last week (AU). He was LIVID at the horribly educated "Law Graduates" that are being pumped and dumped onto the market. He repeated (at least three times I recall) these very words "It's NOT OUR JOB to educated these graduates!". They come into the profession about 80% deficient relative to graduates even 15 years ago. Now, I certainly am not one to blame the children. I think these kids are working harder than ever in some respects. It's a structural problem. So, I mention this to a colleague. She tells me he friend has stopped hiring Accounting Graduates. He gives all applicants a Test that he himself made up, and not a single one has passed it - so he hires people who have accounting experience but no degree, as they can pass this simple BASIC test. It must seem weird? I mean, we're raping as hard as we can. Jesus, we couldn't rape any more than we are. And yet society just seems to keep going in the wrong direction. (see: 47% functional illiteracy of GRADUATES from Detroit Public Schools).
 
The two giveaways that the above paragraph is completely dishonest are the hyperbole (imposed, henchmen, &c.) and the refusal to address the underlying point.
Are you saying he's lying about his son's insurance as well as the increase in his own insurance?
 
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That is just a repetition of your usual fear mongering and demagoguery.
Says Joe, the person who claimed that if we didn't bail out the criminal banking syndicate with generational debt, the sky would fall, hell would open up and we'd all be eating road kill. Yes, Joe the Banker's best friend. He couldn't cheer-lead loud enough as the Federal Reserve spent the last 6 years 'quantitating' and 'easing' the wealth out of what's left of the middle class into the hand's of the top 0.1%.

I'm sure it's a bit hard to see reality at the ground level from up in your palace window. Perhaps you should go back to buying houses off the poor and destitute in Detroit. "Some good deals to be had there". Sure, now that the State has turned the general population of Detroit into a bunch of illiterates you could probably sucker them into buying them off you at double, triple or more. Isn't that what you said? There was 'good deals to be had' in Detroit.

Yes, spoken like a true "Progressive".


Don't worry, the next leg down is taking ... err Taxing, the realestate off property owners. I'm looking forward to it. How about you? I wonder how many people would "vote" in a demagogue if he promises to take ... errr "Tax" any extra homes off each and every American with more than one. How about he promises to raise property taxes to 90% on all the land-lords while bringing in rent-control; better yet, just take their houses off them. Given most Americans have less than $5000 in total saving, I'm sure they wouldn't mind taking... errr, Taxing 90% off anyone with more than that.

Oh, you're going to like Democracy at it's finest - we're finally going to get some real demagogues in office. Not these pussyfoot progressives.
Let's see what the next 15 years brings.
 
Well for starters you need to get your numbers straight. In 2009 there were 48.6 million people without healthcare insurance in the US which accounted for almost 16% of the population. So that means that 84% of the population had health insurance. But that doesn’t mean they all had adequate healthcare insurance. A good portion of that 84% had mini health insurance policies which only cover a few thousand dollars of coverage at most. Actually, only about 55% of Americans had employer based healthcare insurance and that number has been decreasing. And the remaining 30% of the population had government provided healthcare insurance

Government regulation has been the main source of the declining healthcare coverage in the free market. One law, for example, does not allow people to buy insurance over states lines to stimulate competition. This law is in place because insurance companies bought democratic politicians who like big government and the nanny state.

The current reason so many companies is dropping people is due to the ObamaCare law. The la is adding expensive requirements to force insurance policy changes. If the policies change, due to the law, the people who were promised they can keep their coverage, loose their grandfather clause, which was the scam all along. Unions are exempt.

The government is the most inefficient system. They need to handicap the private sector to dumb it down so it is more in line with their skill set. If they can make it as dysfunctional and incompetent as government, then government looks better. This is why they screw up the system. They can't compete in a fair match but require lying and cheating, since this is the way of the democrats.

What accountable should their be for Obama's Lying since, like yelling fire in as theatre, it has caused pain and suffering as the costs go up for everyone? What about the other scandals he lied about, does three strikes counts for anything or is there a liberal dual standard when it comes to lying and cheating?
 
Are you saying he's lying about his son's insurance as well as the increase in his own insurance?

Well without independent verification, we are just going to have to take his word for it. If his health insurance costs went up, it isn't surprising. When have they not gone up? Healthcare and health insurance costs have been rising at multiples of the growth in income for decades. What is new is that since Obamacare the growth in aggregate healthcare costs have begun to slow.
 
Government regulation has been the main source of the declining healthcare coverage in the free market. One law, for example, does not allow people to buy insurance over states lines to stimulate competition. This law is in place because insurance companies bought democratic politicians who like big government and the nanny state.

You have a pretty confused paragraph there. To some extent it is true that government regulations have been a driver of increased healthcare costs. Regulations that artificially limit the supply of physicians and other healthcare professionals is definitely as cost driver. Regulation like Medicare Part D passed by Republicans and signed into law by a Republican president which made it illegal for Americans to purchase prescription drugs in countries like Canada and extended patent protections have certainly contributed to and continue to contribute to unusually high healthcare expenses for Americans. But purchasing healthcare insurance across state lines is not one of them. It’s a great talking point for the ditto head crowd and that is why it’s used. It’s a red herring. People today can buy insurance across state lines.

The current reason so many companies is dropping people is due to the ObamaCare law. The la is adding expensive requirements to force insurance policy changes. If the policies change, due to the law, the people who were promised they can keep their coverage, loose their grandfather clause, which was the scam all along. Unions are exempt.

It’s real obvious you have been listening to too much talk radio and Fox News. Isn’t it horrible that the Obamacare law makes good healthcare insurance available to all people? Isn’t it horrible that Obamacare ends the “JUNK” healthcare insurance market? Now, under Obamacare, people will have to get healthcare insurance that really provides adequate & affordable healthcare insurance coverage. ..HOW TERRIBLE! By the way, unions are not exempt. You are very misinformed.

The government is the most inefficient system. They need to handicap the private sector to dumb it down so it is more in line with their skill set. If they can make it as dysfunctional and incompetent as government, then government looks better. This is why they screw up the system. They can't compete in a fair match but require lying and cheating, since this is the way of the democrats.

LOL…YOU HAVE BEEN LISTENING TO TOO MUCH REPUBLICAN ENTERTAINMENT. I don’t suppose you can back these claims up with something resembling evidence? Of course not, you are just repeating stuff you have picked up from the Republican entertainment industry and duteously and mindlessly repeating it like a good little automaton.

What accountable should their be for Obama's Lying since, like yelling fire in as theatre, it has caused pain and suffering as the costs go up for everyone? What about the other scandals he lied about, does three strikes counts for anything or is there a liberal dual standard when it comes to lying and cheating?

It’s really funny to hear Republicans accuse Obama of lying -that accusation coming from the people who invented the death panels. The day Republicans tell the truth is the day I will eat my hat. If Republicans had to tell the truth and had to be honest, there would be a lot of dead air in the Republican entertainment industry. Unfortunately for Republicans, with the exception of the Obamacare website, the Obama administration has been free from scandal which has caused Republicans to invent scandals like the IRS and Benghazi.

I find it extraordinary that you and those like you are unfazed by the fact your so called facts, evidence, and reasons are so often proven wrong. Facts don't matter to you guys. Logic and reason don't matter to you guys either. It truly is amazing to watch. And then you are all upset when you wind up screwing yourselves as you inevitably do.
 
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Willfully Fallacious

Michael said:

Are you saying he's lying about his son's insurance as well as the increase in his own insurance?

I would suggest, Michael, that when your general pretense depends on the presupposition that you are so much smarter than everybody else, it would probably behoove you to not pretend to be illiterate.

In the first place, neighbor's post attempts to change the subject instead of answering the point the point he quotes.

Additionally, the paragraph relies on an identifiable—and specifically identified in this thread and situation—argumentative fallacy.

And he knows it. That excremental paragraph was deliberate.

So stop pretending you're an idiot. People might start believing you.
 
One thing I don't understand was, when this all began, before ObamaCare, there were 30 million people in USA without health care. In a country of 300Million, that meant 90% had health care. Why mess the 90% up?

Why not target the 30 million and leave the 90% alone? That is called efficiency since the 90% is not costing the tax payer anything. Of that 30 million, half are young people who do not buy health insurance since they are in their prime, not sickly and prefer to spend that money on partying. That leaves 15 million to care for. So why screw up the whole system, instead of targeting just where there was need?

I would have expanded the VA to include the 15 million civilians casualties. Was it incompetence or something else that desired to make it all more wasteful?
Because even the people who thought they had health care didn't really have health care, and the costs were passed on to the rest. Young people tend to take riskier behavior, that's why their auto insurance rates are higher. The whole system was screwed, which is why we needed to fix it. I would say it needed to be replaced entirely.
 
I'm just glad somebody has an alternative plan to the ACA:

"The plan is to allow those things that had been proposed over many years to reform a health care system in America that certainly does need more help so that there's more competition, there's less tort reform threat, there's less trajectory of the cost increases? And those plans have been proposed over and over again. And what thwarts those plans? It's the far left. It's President Obama and his supporters who will not allow the Republicans to usher in free market, patient-centered, doctor-patient relationship links to reform health care!"​

You see, Sarah Palin in her infinite wisdom finally clued us in on the Tea Party's answer to Obamacare. Gotta love it...

"Right on!" she cried.​

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/..._4254785.html?utm_hp_ref=politics&ir=Politics
 
It's President Obama and his supporters who will not allow the Republicans to usher in free market, patient-centered, doctor-patient relationship links to reform health care!"

The government approach toward health care is the same approach they used with the government push toward alternate energy. They first added regulations to drive up costs and then supplemented alternate energy so they can compete. It has to do with cheating by fixing the deck, which is the trademark of liberalism. Luckily, even with cheating the liberals could not compete and the horses they picked went belly up with money being skimmed for the democrats. The global warming scam could have put it over the top if it wasn't for truth seekers. This is health care playbook in a nut shell. The template uses fear mongering. Obama is amplifying fear by disruption the system.

In one respect, I sort of like the Obama/liberal approach, scam and all. It will be so inefficient it will require rationing. Rationing can be good, since people have been conditioned to need health care more than rationally needed.

A free market analogy is the cell phone. Ten years ago these were less common and most people could cope in life without one. But now there is a dependency on the cell phone that makes people more vulnerable. Take away a phone from someone see it they go irrational. Health care uses this template of irrational need.

About a year ago, I drove from the northeast to Florida without a cell phone. People feared for me. This was something anyone could do 20 or even 10 years ago. But now I was looked at like a cloud of doom and gloom would follow me. Marketing conditioning by both the free market and the fear induction of the liberal template, makes both flocks of the sheep ripe to shear. ObamaCare by the nature of its inefficiency will unknowingly via (fumbling and bumbling) help break the spell toward rational health care.
 
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