News from Gaza Part 2

[Buffalo Roam]

none of which has anything to do with the point I was making. You have none shame do you. your intentionally misrepresenting my point. For the last fucking time I'm not talking about the arabs so why the fuck are you in your response to me.

You are the one with no shame, you deliberately misrepresent a lot of things, especially the Jewish connection to the Nazis.

And ignore the Palestinians connections to the Nazis and the Holocaust.

 

[Bells]

Bells it is called checking your source, it didn't take long to blow your Peace Now propaganda out of the Water and show it for what for what it was.

My peace propaganda? It was from your link. Last time I trust anything you post on here.

Really you know it is history?, some site reference please.

About what? The Lehi's attempts to contact the Nazi's?

You've missed the previous links and quotes? Here's another one.

In 1940, Lehi proposed intervening in World War II on the side of Nazi Germany. It offered assistance in "evacuating" the Jews of Europe, in return for Germany's help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine. Late in 1940, Lehi representativeNaftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig. Lubenchik told Von Hentig that Lehi had not yet revealed its full power and that they were capable of organizing a whole range of anti-British operations.

On the assumption that the destruction of Britain was the Germans' top objective, the organization offered cooperation in the following terms: From the NMO side: full cooperation in sabotage, espionage and intelligence and up to wide military operations in the Middle East and in eastern Europe anywhere where the Irgun had Jewish cells, active and trained and in some places with weapons. From the German side, the following declarations and actions were demanded: (1) Full recognition in an independent Jewish state in Palestine/Eretz Israel (2) On the same level of importance and in practice, to allow all the Jews wishing so, or about to leave anyway from their place in Europe, by their own will or because of government injunctions, with no restrictions on their numbers, the ability to migrate to Palestine. For this purpose there was expressed a need to cancel any transfer plans of Jews to distant countries likeMadagascar.

On January 11, 1941 a letter was sent from Der Marvitz, the German Naval attaché in Ankara, depicting an offer to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich".[11][12] There are three possibilities as to how the offer reached the German Naval attaché in Ankara. One is that en route to Germany, von Hentig was delayed in Ankara and delivered his version of the offer orally to Der Marvitz and Marvitz wrote the letter using his words. The second is that Colombani (a French general in the French intelligence) invented the offer because of personal rivalry between himself and other figures in Vichy: this rivalry is known from a paragraph in Der Marvitz's letter, "Colombani is of the opinion that his return to France is a consequence of co-operation of Conti with Minister Pierroton", or, third, that Colombani wanted the offer to fail: he had co-operated with the Jerusalem Mufti in Lebanon in 1938-1939 and was also the one who delivered him in his car in 1939 through Syria to the Iraqi border.

In any case, Der Marvitz delivered the offer, classified as secret, to the German Ambassador in Turkey and on January 21, 1941 it was sent to Berlin. There was never any response to the offer. Von Hentig would later say that he believed it was important to help the Jews establish a country. [13] [14] German plans such as the Madagascar Plan eventually failed and ultimately led the Nazis to initiate the Holocaust, the "Final Solution to the Jewish Question" in 1942, but at the time of the Lehi proposal, this was still in the future.

http://www.oste.eu/lehi_group_en.html#Contact_with_Nazi_authorities

“Stern believed that the Jewish population should focus its efforts on
fighting the British rather than supporting them in World War II; and that
generic cialis forceful methods were an effective means to achieve those goals. He differentiated between “enemies of the Jewish people” (e.g. the British) and “Jew haters”, (e.g. the Nazis), believing that the former needed to be defeated, and the latter neutralized. To this end, he initiated contact
with Nazi authorities, offering an alliance with Germany in return for
transferring Europe’s Jews to Palestine and the establishment of a Jewish
state therein.”

http://cgi.stanford.edu/group/wais/cgi-bin/index.php?p=5217

And here is some more interesting information about the Lehi, also known as the Stern Gang..

The assassination of Lord Moyne by the Stern Gang at the end of the World War II saw Jewish terrorist activity take off. The Zionist revisionist group was the last organisation to describe its activities as terrorist. In July 1946 the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, where the British military headquarters was housed, was the biggest act of terror during this period. The epicentre of British rule in Palestine, including the government secretariat and the headquarters of the British military forces in Palestine and Transjordan, occupied two floors of the southern wing of the King David Hotel (beneath which the explosives were placed). Thus, the attack’s target was neither the hotel itself nor the people working or staying in it, but the government and military officers located there. Ninety-one people were killed and 45 others were injured, including Arabs, Jews and Britons. The bombing still holds an infamous distinction as one of the single most lethal terrorist incidents of the 20th century.

However, the British army declined to describe its attackers as terrorists because of the implication that its troops were frightened of them. An ongoing terrorist campaign led to the British abandoning Palestine in 1948.

Townshend remarks that this turning point in the Jewish terrorist campaign illustrates the difficulty of writing objectively about terrorism, as “even those studies that provide a clear and critical account of the Jewish terrorist campaign stop dead at the point of the British decision to withdraw from Palestine”.20 He furthermore points out that the subsequent campaign of the Palestinian Liberation Organisation (PLO) is incomprehensible without an understanding of the aftermath of the British withdrawal from Palestine, during which the Jewish state substantially enlarged its share of Palestine’s land area and the Palestine Arab state collapsed. Many writers categorise this ‘enlargement’ as conventional warfare.

Western (pro-Israeli) writers describe the terror tactics of the Stern Gang as guerrilla warfare aimed at liberating the country from British colonial rule. Keeping in mind that the PLO is fighting for a similar cause, using similar tactics, it should not be surprising that they call themselves ‘liberation fighters’ rather than ‘terrorists’.

http://www.iss.co.za/index.php?link_id=32&slink_id=4491&link_type=12&slink_type=12&tmpl_id=3

The other group, Lehi, the Hebrew acronym for "Fighters for the Freedom of Israel" tried to ally itself first with fascist Italy, then with Nazi Germany and finally with Stalinist Russia.

Lehi became known as the ''Stern Gang" after its founder, Avraham Stern, who eventually was killed by the British, while his followers killed some 300 British policemen and soldiers. Leadership passed to a triumvirate consisting of Yizernitzky, Israel Sheib and Nathan Friedman-Yellin. They ordered the 1944 assassination of Lord Moyne, the British governor general of Cairo.

Yizernitzky was captured and interned by the British in Eritrea. With other prisoners he dug his way out of the prison camp, however, and smuggled himself back to Palestine early in 1948. He also adopted a Hebrew name, Yitzhak Shamir.

In April 1948, Lehi and Irgun gunmen massacred the men, women, and children of the Palestinian village of Deir Yassin, which had been neutral in the fighting between Arabs and Jews that broke out after the 1947 partition resolution. The massacre took place a month before the British withdrew, the state of Israel was proclaimed and Arab military units from Jordan, Iraq and Egypt entered Palestine. The terror inspired by the massacre explains the ease with which Israel's army cleared Palestinian villages of their occupants in the months of fighting that followed.

http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/1291/9112041.htm

Yep.. real heroes huh?

What amuses me is that Jews will say that they attempted to collaborate with anyone who was against the British at the time, but funnily enough, they remain silent on who they attempted to collaborate with. No surprises there really, when one considers many members of the organisation ended up joining the IDF when it was disbanded and deemed a terrorist organisation by the Israeli Government. And now they are celebrated as being heroes and liberators. Funny that, huh?

But it didn't go very far did it?

Not as Far as the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husseini, and the Einsatzgruppe Ägypten.

So how about a Historical Reference?

It didn't go very far because the Nazi's never responded to their attempts to make contact.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

My peace propaganda? It was from your link. Last time I trust anything you post on here.

If you had any reading comprehension, what I said was that, the Reference you made to the Peace Now propaganda should have been vetted before you ran off at the mouth with it.

About what? The Lehi's attempts to contact the Nazi's?

Yes, Ovidio, a German Based site, some what suspect I would venture. and as you point out, nothing ever came of it.

Let see? Lehi? it never had more than a 100 members, so exactly how much would this have helped the Nazis?

Dynamic Local Customization
All of Ovidio's sites are also dynamically tuned for each end user. From the user's IP address (and without using any personal data of any nature), Ovidio is able to estimate the user's geographical location. Based on this location and browser settings, we select the appropriate default language to show that user (though the user can always select any of our other supported languages if they wish). We also adjust the content of the website to ensure that it includes as much "local" content as possible. This means that a user visiting legalservices.eu from Spain would see a site in Spanish that includes information and advertisements about legal services in Spain. A visitor to the same website from Germany would see a site in German including information and advertisements about German legal services. The depth of the localized content is expected to grow significantly over time.

You've missed the previous links and quotes? Here's another one.

Again 100 members at most? and not a official part of the Zionist Movement, at that time.

Kind of Pales in comparison to the Mufti Of Jerusalem, and 2 full divisions of Muslim SS in Nazi service.

And here is some more interesting information about the Lehi, also known as the Stern Gang..

And from your own citation:

The International Zionist Organization was committed to reliance on Britain. But following the first Arab attacks on Jewish settlements in 1920, they established a semi-open defensive force.19

However, the British army declined to describe its attackers as terrorists

The British after WWII reneged on the Balfour Agreement, which then set up the situation where the Jews realized that the British now had become open opponents to the Creation of Israel, and were not acting in the Best interests of the Jews of the fourth coming State of Israel.

This is when the majority of this happened, not before, yes maybe, Lehi contacted Germany, yes they may have offered, but again nothing ever came of it, less then 100 men, and Lehi was never a major player until after WWII, and then, and only then, because Britain, crawfished the deal and the Zionist Movement needed all the help it could muster to defend and secure the realization of a Israel State.

Yep.. real heroes huh?

To the Jews? I don't know, but they were there when Israel needed them most.

What amuses me is that Jews will say that they attempted to collaborate with anyone who was against the British at the time, but funnily enough, they remain silent on who they attempted to collaborate with. No surprises there really, when one considers many members of the organisation ended up joining the IDF when it was disbanded and deemed a terrorist organisation by the Israeli Government. And now they are celebrated as being heroes and liberators. Funny that, huh?

Really, less then a 100 Lehi and no reply from Germany, yes a major plot, really, and guess what, the German Intelligence knew how many men Lehi had to offer, and just how little that would further their objectives in the Middle East.

It didn't go very far because the Nazi's never responded to their attempts to make contact.

As you have just admitted, it didn't go any where at all, so a mountain out of less than a 100 man mole hill.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

I'm sorry. But these honestly needs to be asked after this are you stupid? Do you know how to read? What you have just posted in response to my post in no uncertain terms could never be considered an intelligent response. I was talking about jews in palestine being willing to work with the nazis to get their own state. ie. be willing to work with the enemy( the nazis) of their occupier(the british). I have no idea what the what your talking about.

Even at that, the British weren't occupires, this was treaty, and they were holders of a finite mandate.

 

[otheadp]

I'm very saddened by the suffering the people of Gaza are experiencing right now. Sure, most of them don't like Israel too much, especially their children who have never set foot in Israel or spoken to an Israeli and so consequently think of Jews and Israelis as mythical villains... but they're still just people, and I wish their suffering would stop. Not all of them agree with HAMAS.

That is why IDF and the world should close ranks, just as the Arab world is beginning to do, behind Israel, and redouble the efforts to bomb HAMAS to hell so that the people of Gaza will have any sort of chance at normal life in their life times.

 

[pjdude1219]

Yes, a comment made two pages later with no context, you still need to fire that teacher.




Yes, and for every Jew the Germans agreed to release and send to Palestine, they were paid a ransom to release them.

Until the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem Haj Amin al-Husseini arrived in Berlin, then the Germans stopped sending Jews to Palestine and sent them to the Gas Chambers of the extermination camps.

You can show no actual connection, if you can post the URL to the site.

You keep misrepresenting my post I'll will report you.

 

[pjdude1219]

My peace propaganda? It was from your link. Last time I trust anything you post on here.

bells buffalo is very good at giving information that contradicts his own points and supports someone elses.

 

[pjdude1219]

You are the one with no shame, you deliberately misrepresent a lot of things, especially the Jewish connection to the Nazis.

And ignore the Palestinians connections to the Nazis and the Holocaust.

I am not ignoring them They just have nothing to do with the jewish overtures to the nazis and the reasoning or rational behind it. Just because your a bigot doesn't mean your bigot bs fits in every single topic.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

I am not ignoring them They just have nothing to do with the jewish overtures to the nazis and the reasoning or rational behind it. Just because your a bigot doesn't mean your bigot bs fits in every single topic.

And what do you know about your Jewish overtures?

Lehi---Less than 100 operatives---not part of the Zionist Movement---trying to make a deal that was totally ignored at best, and never happened at worst.

Yes, I am a bigot, I am bigoted against ignorance and bigotry, such as you display.

pjdude, as usual you speak with out knowledge:

So your saying you wouldn't work with the enemy of your occupier? Because thats all I'm saying I would do. and history is full of examples of people working with the enemies of their occupiers. Hell the americans did in the american revalution.

American didn't work with their occupiers in the Revolutionary War, it isn't legally possible, America was a Crown Colony, the Citizens were British Subject, Citizens.

1. There was no American Nation yet.

2. The People in America at that time were Citizens of the Crown, British Subject, so it would be legally impossible for them to due what you claim.

 

[Bells]

If you had any reading comprehension, what I said was that, the Reference you made to the Peace Now propaganda should have been vetted before you ran off at the mouth with it.

Hang on. I quote something from your link, and I need to make sure it's vetted? You posted a link to supposedly educate me and it contained the quote I posted in response to your inane link spam and so called education and you're accusing me of not vetting it when I quote from the link you posted? What are you smoking Buffalo? I want some! The Peace Now propaganda is from a link you posted Buffalo and you "ran off at the mouth when you posted it". Maybe you should make sure you check what links you post, eh?

Yes, Ovidio, a German Based site, some what suspect I would venture. and as you point out, nothing ever came of it.

Let see? Lehi? it never had more than a 100 members, so exactly how much would this have helped the Nazis?

And it is mentioned in other sites. And again, what you just don't seem to be getting. Nothing ever came of it because the Germans never responded to their attempts to contact them. One has to wonder what they would have done if the Germans had responded and accepted their demands and proposition.

As for their numbers. They managed to kill over 300 British personnel, assassinated several others, including a UN mediator, bombed trains killing many civilians and British soldiers, massacred around 100 or so civilians in the Palestinian village (Deir Yassin massacre if you didn't know), sent letter bombs. They were, the quintessential terrorist organisation. They achieved plenty in the little time they were active until they were deemed illegal by the newly formed Israeli state. They would have helped the Nazi's in the ME and primarily in what is now Israel. And I'd suggest you actually go back and revise the number of their membership.

Again 100 members at most? and not a official part of the Zionist Movement, at that time.

Kind of Pales in comparison to the Mufti Of Jerusalem, and 2 full divisions of Muslim SS in Nazi service.

And? What of the Muslims who fought alongside the British to help defeat the Nazi's? I guess they just don't count, eh Buffalo. Funny that though. Muslims trying to help defeat the Nazi's in the region and a Jewish Zionist group wanting to collaborate with the Nazi's in the region to help defeat the British. Irony.

They were a Zionist organisation. Or did that simple fact escape you? Their few hundred members virtually stymied the British.. Again, what you don't seem to get is that it was Stern who attempted to contact the Nazi's to help the Nazi's defeat the British in return, the Nazi's would send the Jews from Europe to what is now Israel and the Nazi's would help the Jews establish a Jewish State.. The Nazi's never bothered to reply. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and we can imagine why they never replied. I guess Stern was unaware that Hitler wanted to kill all the Jews, not help them. Had the Nazi's responded, it could have turned out vastly different if they had helped the Nazi's in the ME to defeat the British.

And from your own citation:

Why don't you finish the sentence of that quote instead of taking it out of context, Buffalo? How utterly deceitful of you. Here is the quote in full:

"However, the British army declined to describe its attackers as terrorists because of the implication that its troops were frightened of them."​

Amazing just how different it is when it is quoted in full instead of being quoted out of context as you attempted to do. The British didn't want to classify them as a terrorist organisation at the time because they felt it would imply that the British troops were afraid of them.

The British after WWII reneged on the Balfour Agreement, which then set up the situation where the Jews realized that the British now had become open opponents to the Creation of Israel, and were not acting in the Best interests of the Jews of the fourth coming State of Israel.

This is when the majority of this happened, not before, yes maybe, Lehi contacted Germany, yes they may have offered, but again nothing ever came of it, less then 100 men, and Lehi was never a major player until after WWII, and then, and only then, because Britain, crawfished the deal and the Zionist Movement needed all the help it could muster to defend and secure the realization of a Israel State.

No, you deceitful sanctimonious little man. Nothing ever came of it because the Nazi's never responded to their attempts to make contact. When the British went to war with the Nazi's the Lehi were a part of Irgun. They broke away when Irgun stated they would not fight the British in the region while the British were attempting to defeat the Nazi's. Stern then left and formed his own organisation (now called the Lehi) so that he could continue to attack the British and attempt to collaborate with the Nazi's to defeat the British. Their numbers were not less than 100, but probably amounted to a few hundred. The Lehi were a major player in the region because of the manner in which they conducted their terrorist attacks, employing guerrilla warfare. And you're defending them? You're defending a terrorist organisation who wanted the Nazi's to win the war and even went so far as to try to help the Nazi's but even the Nazi's refused them.. probably seeing them as the traitorous maggots they were.. traitors to their own people.. They were so hell bent on creating a Jewish State they wanted that they were willing to collaborate with the very people who were attempting to eradicate their own people from Europe. And you're defending them because they were trying to establish Israel at the time?

To the Jews? I don't know, but they were there when Israel needed them most.

Nice, you're saying Israel needed terrorist organisations? In light of that, you'll agree why the Palestinians need their terrorist organsations then, right Buffalo? You know, since the tactics of terrorists in the region has not changed at all.. What was I saying earlier that the notion of your freedom fighter is my terrorist..? Funny that, huh?

I doubt the millions of Jews who died at the hands of the Nazi's would deem them as heroes, since they were willing to collaborate with the very people who massacred so many Jews in the first place. I guess the other anti-British Zionist groups had the sense to not try to defeat the British while the British were fighting the enemy of the Jews in Europe.

Really, less then a 100 Lehi and no reply from Germany, yes a major plot, really, and guess what, the German Intelligence knew how many men Lehi had to offer, and just how little that would further their objectives in the Middle East.

I understand how simple things escape you. Well over 100 members and the Germans never responded because they were not exactly keen on creating a Jewish State.. you know.. since they attempted to kill every single Jew in Europe..

It's not about the size of the plot. It is about the fact that a Jewish Zionist group would even want to collaborate with the very army that was hell bent on destroying and killing every single Jew in Europe, and all to achieve their own means of creating a Jewish State. I am not even Jewish and I find the thought revolting.

As you have just admitted, it didn't go any where at all, so a mountain out of less than a 100 man mole hill.

Because it is fucking ironic that the group many now deem as heroes were the same group who wanted to help the Nazi's of all people.

 

[desi]

If I was running Israel I wouldn't agree to a ceasefire either. Traditionally they have been used by people to rearm themselves and rest up for more battle. Better to keep the heat on the battle while you are winning.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

According to the United Nations, in 2007, for every Israeli civilian killed in the conflict, 17 Palestinian civilians were killed.

Collateral damage is high on both sides. Roughly 30% of Israeli casualties are civilians, compared to about 50% of Palestinian casualties.

It does appear that both sides refuse to observe the customary "rules of war" for civilized nations. Such high rates of collateral damage are unconscionable and more closely resemble the rates accompanying terrorist attacks than warfare. It's easy to see why each side accuses the other of terrorism.

The essence of terrorism is to attempt to terrorize the enemy's civilian population into petitioning their government to adopt policies so unpopular that there is no other way to pursue them.

Hamas's attacks on Israeli civilian targets are not having that effect: they have virtually united Israel's civilians in their hatred of Palestine, and in their support for any means to end the attacks, including one politician's intemperate but never-retracted use of the word "holocaust." So Hamas's policy of terrorism is futile. However, this is surely due in large part to its ineffectiveness. Hamas does not have the weaponry to kill large numbers of Israelis: one of the bar charts in the cited UN document contrasting Israeli with Palestinian civilian deaths, at the resolution presented, almost makes the Israeli death toll look like zero.

Israel's much more numerous attacks on Palestinian civilians are having at least a measurable effect, although the nature of that effect is debatable. There is a noticeable backlash against Hamas in Gaza, and Palestinians cite Israel's redoubled attacks as the reason for this. On the other hand, support for Hamas may also be increasing; it's likely that Palestinian opinion is being polarized, with no one undecided any more. What's undeniable is that the combination of Israel's ability to almost entirely close the territory's borders and shut off its flow of resources has the power to literally starve the population to death. In conjunction with the military attacks, the civilians can see this as a stark choice of options: renounce Hamas, which would be regarded as treason by those in power, or martyr the entire population.

One thousand Israelis were killed in this conflict between September 2000 and July 2007--140 per year. Without putting more time into this post and digging for elusive statistics, my instincts as a risk analyst suggest that this is probably less than the number of Israelis killed in auto accidents. Considering that the majority of those casualties were IDF personnel--more-or-less legitimate military targets just like the Pentagon, the USS Cole and the US Marine barracks--the risk to civilians is low.

The risk to Palestinian civilians is much higher.

Israel can continue this war indefinitely, losing an almost statistically insignificant number of civilians, so it doesn't have much to gain from a cease-fire.

Hamas can only continue the war until its civilian population is obliterated, or until that population rises up against it. Neither outcome looks like a victory to me, although I've never learned how to think like an Islamic terrorist. I'd say the only rational choice for Hamas is a cease-fire--which is only a meaningful statement of the leaders of Hamas are rational, which seems debatable.

Israel could mount a massive military ground campaign and simply defeat Hamas and reoccupy the territory. They're not much interested in that because of the casualties their own side would suffer, and because administering the occupied people would be a nightmare.

It does seem like the next move is up to Hamas. Israel can keep this up indefinitely with only minor losses that simply strengthen its people's resolve.

 

[candy]

I am more concerned that the humanitarian aid be restored than with a cease fire. UN officials have indicated that they need about a 100 trucks a day to meet the need. Reopening the pipeline to the power station would also alleviate a lot of inconvenience and keep the hospitals functioning.

 

[pjdude1219]

And what do you know about your Jewish overtures?

Lehi---Less than 100 operatives---not part of the Zionist Movement---trying to make a deal that was totally ignored at best, and never happened at worst.

Read their fucking charter. its a poster child for extremist zionism.

Yes, I am a bigot

yes you are.,

I am bigoted against ignorance and bigotry

that would decribe me.

such as you display.

just I am displaying neither ignorance not bigotry.

pjdude, as usual you speak with out knowledge:

Wrong as usual. I am speaking with knowlegde just knowledge not based on one side of an issue.

American didn't work with their occupiers in the Revolutionary War, it isn't legally possible, America was a Crown Colony, the Citizens were British Subject, Citizens.

WTF your reading comprehension sucks. I was not talking about working with the occupier but the enemy of the occupier. You know the Spanish, the French, and the Dutch.

1. There was no American Nation yet.

it is how they are referred to distinguish them.

2. The People in America at that time were Citizens of the Crown, British Subject, so it would be legally impossible for them to due what you claim.

I never claimed working with your resident nation enemies was legal. You seem to be under the impression that I'm claiming treason is legal. But if your going to fight them its a good idea.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Hang on. I quote something from your link, and I need to make sure it's vetted? You posted a link to supposedly educate me and it contained the quote I posted in response to your inane link spam and so called education and you're accusing me of not vetting it when I quote from the link you posted? What are you smoking Buffalo? I want some! The Peace Now propaganda is from a link you posted Buffalo and you "ran off at the mouth when you posted it". Maybe you should make sure you check what links you post, eh?

Yes, if your going to quote it, it is up to you to vett it, as it was information from a outside source (Peace Now), to the Wiki document.

I checked the information in the link I posted, and it was accurate, something you should have done.

And it is mentioned in other sites. And again, what you just don't seem to be getting. Nothing ever came of it because the Germans never responded to their attempts to contact them. One has to wonder what they would have done if the Germans had responded and accepted their demands and proposition.

That will be forever unknown, so, ergo, it isn't germane to the debate, because it never took place.

As for their numbers. They managed to kill over 300 British personnel, assassinated several others, including a UN mediator, bombed trains killing many civilians and British soldiers, massacred around 100 or so civilians in the Palestinian village (Deir Yassin massacre if you didn't know), sent letter bombs. They were, the quintessential terrorist organisation. They achieved plenty in the little time they were active until they were deemed illegal by the newly formed Israeli state. They would have helped the Nazi's in the ME and primarily in what is now Israel. And I'd suggest you actually go back and revise the number of their membership.

Yes, after WWII, not as any part of WWII.

After WWII, the British double crossed the Jews, and gave support to the Arabs, and interfered with the immigration of Jews to Israel.

The British, broke all agreements, from Balfour, to U.N. 181.

And? What of the Muslims who fought alongside the British to help defeat the Nazi's? I guess they just don't count, Beth Buffalo. Funny that though. Muslims trying to help defeat the Nazi's in the region and a Jewish Zionist group wanting to collaborate with the Nazi's in the region to help defeat the British. Irony.

That is not what the discussion and debate is about now is it?

But lets look at your claim:

Amin Al Husseini meets Heinrich Himmler, Head of Nazi SS.

Amin Al Husseini inspecting Nazi Muslim troops - 1943

Nazi propaganda poster featuring Amin Al Husseini recruiting young Muslims.

Can you produce any documentation to show this kind of connection between any Jewish group and the Nazis?

Or any Muslim group in cooperation with the British?

They were a Zionist organisation. Or did that simple fact escape you? Their few hundred members virtually stymied the British.. Again, what you don't seem to get is that it was Stern who attempted to contact the Nazi's to help the Nazi's defeat the British in return, the Nazi's would send the Jews from Europe to what is now Israel and the Nazi's would help the Jews establish a Jewish State.. The Nazi's never bothered to reply. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and we can imagine why they never replied. I guess Stern was unaware that Hitler wanted to kill all the Jews, not help them. Had the Nazi's responded, it could have turned out vastly different if they had helped the Nazi's in the ME to defeat the British.

What don't you get about the fact that they were not accepted into the Zionist until after WWII, after the British crawfished on the Balfour Agreement, and started to interfere with Jewish immigration to the land of Israel.

Show documentation of Lehi as part of the Zionist Movement before and during WWII.

Again the Lehi wasn't part of the Zionist Movement until after WWII.

Why don't you finish the sentence of that quote instead of taking it out of context, Buffalo? How utterly deceitful of you. Here is the quote in full:

"However, the British army declined to describe its attackers as terrorists because of the implication that its troops were frightened of them."​

Amazing just how different it is when it is quoted in full instead of being quoted out of context as you attempted to do. The British didn't want to classify them as a terrorist organisation at the time because they felt it would imply that the British troops were afraid of them.

Is it? the last part of the quote is opinion, of the author, not supportable by documented fact, the first part of the quote is supportable by fact and documentation.

No, you deceitful sanctimonious little man. Nothing ever came of it because the Nazi's never responded to their attempts to make contact. When the British went to war with the Nazi's the Lehi were a part of Irgun. They broke away when Irgun stated they would not fight the British in the region while the British were attempting to defeat the Nazi's. Stern then left and formed his own organisation (now called the Lehi) so that he could continue to attack the British and attempt to collaborate with the Nazi's to defeat the British. Their numbers were not less than 100, but probably amounted to a few hundred. The Lehi were a major player in the region because of the manner in which they conducted their terrorist attacks, employing guerrilla warfare. And you're defending them? You're defending a terrorist organisation who wanted the Nazi's to win the war and even went so far as to try to help the Nazi's but even the Nazi's refused them.. probably seeing them as the traitorous maggots they were.. traitors to their own people.. They were so hell bent on creating a Jewish State they wanted that they were willing to collaborate with the very people who were attempting to eradicate their own people from Europe. And you're defending them because they were trying to establish Israel at the time?

No, you deceitful sanctimonious little man

Who Me? I can't help it that you don't have your history, facts, or timeline straight, as for

deceitful sanctimonious little man

You seem to fill that bill quite well, you have no idea of the historical time line, and seem breft of the knowledge that Stern and Lehi died in 1942, and seem to be exceding angry.

And Bullshit, Lehi was on the outs with Irgun, just as I said, and you have just admitted.

And Lehi under Stern never numbered more than 100 men, and by 1942 Stern was dead, and his originazation was too.

plus, at the time of the offer:

http://canadiancoalition.com/forum/messages/30449.shtml

In any case, Der Marvitz delivered the offer, classified as secret, to the German Ambassador in Turkey and on January 21, 1941 it was sent to Berlin. There was never any response. Von Hentig would later say that he believed it was important to help the Jews establish a country. [15] [16] German plans such as the Madagascar Plan eventually failed and ultimately led the Nazis to initiate the Holocaust, the "Final Solution to the Jewish Question" in 1942, but this was still in the future at the time of the Lehi proposal.

So again your point has no standing in the present debate.

Nice, you're saying Israel needed terrorist organisations? In light of that, you'll agree why the Palestinians need their terrorist organsations then, right Buffalo? You know, since the tactics of terrorists in the region has not changed at all.. What was I saying earlier that the notion of your freedom fighter is my terrorist..? Funny that, huh?

Well guess what I was wrong:

The newly-formed Israeli government banned the organization under an anti-terrorism law passed three days after the Sept 1948 assassination of the UN mediator Folke Bernadotte.

I doubt the millions of Jews who died at the hands of the Nazi's would deem them as heroes, since they were willing to collaborate with the very people who massacred so many Jews in the first place. I guess the other anti-British Zionist groups had the sense to not try to defeat the British while the British were fighting the enemy of the Jews in Europe.

I doubt that you would have any inkling of what those millions of Jews would have thought.

Let alone thought about the fact that the Muslims were taking active part in the Final Solution of Hitler's Germany to the Jewish Problem.

I understand how simple things escape you. Well over 100 members and the Germans never responded because they were not exactly keen on creating a Jewish State.. you know.. since they attempted to kill every single Jew in Europe..

Really? well my mouthy friend, not only do the simple thing escape you, but the complex problems are beyond your grasp, and this is nothing if not a complex problem.

It's not about the size of the plot. It is about the fact that a Jewish Zionist group would even want to collaborate with the very army that was hell bent on destroying and killing every single Jew in Europe, and all to achieve their own means of creating a Jewish State. I am not even Jewish and I find the thought revolting.

What Plot? nothing happened, there was no plot, and there was no support from Lehi for the extermination of the Jews in Europe, they were trying to get them out, and as I have cited, at the time of the offer, the Germans hadn't implemented the Final solution, and there was no way fro Lehi to know about that Operation.

Because it is fucking ironic that the group many now deem as heroes were the same group who wanted to help the Nazi's of all people.

Again, prove that anything was done to help the Nazis, or that the Lehi was of any help to the Nazis in the Middle East in WWII.

http://www.bambooweb.com/articles/L/e/Lehi_(group).html

Lehi was founded by Stern in 1940 as an offshoot from Irgun. It was initially named Irgun Zvai Leumi be-Yisrael (National Military Organization in Israel). Following Stern's death in 1942, and the arrest of many of its members, the group went into eclipse until it was reformed as "Lehi" under a triumvirate of Israel Eldad, Natan Yellin-Mor, and Yitzhak Shamir.

So even the Lehi that emerged after Stern wasn't the same organization as that of Stern, he was dead.

So again the whole Lehi argument is nothing but a Red Herring

 

[pjdude1219]

um bells the offer the lehi made was in 1940 before the decision to exterminate was made and implemented. At the time the offer was made it was in line with official nazi goal.


and buffalo the lehi aren't a red herring. the only reason you think that they are is you don't understand why I brought them up in the first place. But than again trying to understand anything has never been your primary motive. the reason I brought them up was to show a jewish group willing to deal with the nazis to show just because some one is willing to work with someone they don't have to believe the same thing or have a nefarious purpose. I mean the americans and british worked with stalin and certainly weren't pro communism. You work with what you can get not with what you wish you could get. This goes triple for groups like the lehi who require outside help to realistically obtain their goals.

 

[James R]

Final human victims results, since savage attacks ...... "until now"

397 martyrs
2000 WOUNDED

Martyrs, eh?

Martyrs for what, exactly?

Do you think these people chose to lay down their lives for some cause? Seriously?

Maybe it's time to get real and stop living in a fantasy land. It might prevent some more unnecessary deaths.

Israel has suffered 8 years of rocket attacks with patient and with no military response.

Oh, give us a break. I live half a world away from Israel. Yet almost every week on the TV news I see stories of Israel's helicopter gunships triumphantly wiping out yet another "terrorist base" in Gaza or the West Bank, usually closely followed by an Israeli military spokesperson describing how this was a necessary act of "self defence".

Don't they tell you anything in Israel? Do they keep you in some kind of fantasy that the evil Palestinians attack Israel constantly and good old innocent Israel never responds?

You need to widen your reading. Access some international news sites and get the big picture. Let go of the fantasy and start living in reality.

during the last week, hamas fired constantly on israel, with over 100 rockets a day. they have made life impossible. not only that, but they themselves boastfully denied the cease fire, confident in their power. they cant complain now.

What do you expect them to do, with Israeli tanks and reserve troops massing on their border for a full scale invasion?

 

[Buffalo Roam]

Read their fucking charter. its a poster child for extremist zionism.

Post the Charter, and I will read it.

But if you are talking about the The Protocols of the Elders of Zion:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Protocols_of_the_Elders_of_Zion

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion (Protocols of the Wise Men of Zion, Library of Congress's Uniform Title; Russian: "Протоколы сионских мудрецов", or "Сионские протоколы" ; see also other titles) is a an antisemitic tract alleging a Jewish and Masonic plot to achieve world domination.

The Protocols has been proven by respected international scholars, both Jewish and non-Jewish, to be a forgery,[1][2][3] a fraud,[4][5] a hoax,[6][7] and a classic case of plagiarism[8]. The original source has been clearly identified as an 1864 book by Maurice Joly entitled The Dialogue in Hell Between Machiavelli and Montesquieu, which was written as a satirical attack against the ambitions and methods of French Emperor Napoleon III.[9] In the book, Machiavelli represented Napoleon III, and described a series of steps that he intended to take to become ruler of the world. The Joly book was in turn based on material borrowed from a popular novel of the time by Eugène Sue, The Mysteries of the People, in which the initiators of the plot to rule the world were Jesuits instead of Napoleon III. Neither the Joly book nor the Sue book mentioned Jews or Masons.

yes you are., that would decribe me. {QUOTE] such as you display.

just I am displaying neither ignorance not bigotry.[/QUOTE]

You are amusing, yes, displaying intelligence no, and all with total bigotry.

Wrong as usual. I am speaking with knowlegde just knowledge not based on one side of an issue.

Yes you speak from only one side of knowledge, pjdudes side, which has no resemblance to truth or reality.

Still a Legend in Your own Mind.

It should be no problem to provide historical citation of your ramblings if true.

WTF your reading comprehension sucks. I was not talking about working with the occupier but the enemy of the occupier. You know the Spanish, the French, and the Dutch.

it is how they are referred to distinguish them.

How you distinguish them? citation would help, just because you can understand your own thoughts, a amazing feat, in and of it's self, doesn't mean that anyone else can.

Documentation and Citation, something you fail to provide even to the simplest of subjects.

I never claimed working with your resident nation enemies was legal. You seem to be under the impression that I'm claiming treason is legal. But if your going to fight them its a good idea.

What? :roflmao:

Originally Posted by pjdude1219
So your saying you wouldn't work with the enemy of your occupier? Because thats all I'm saying I would do. and history is full of examples of people working with the enemies of their occupiers. Hell the americans did in the american revalution.

Now read your post again slowly------What occupation? America at that time was a British Colony, the people of America were British Citizens, so again what occupation.

The American Revolution was a Coup, a over throw of the existing government, by the People who were English Citizens who no longer wanted to be Governed by England.

In actuality it was a Civil War, and we managed to enforce the separation, unlike the South.

Again your comprehension fails you, I was not saying what they did was or wasn't Illegal, I am saying that your postulation that as Americans they worked with foreign powers, this is factually incorrect, as British Citizens they were committing treason by mounting a rebellion, and until they achieved victory there was no American Nation.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

um bells the offer the lehi made was in 1940 before the decision to exterminate was made and implemented. At the time the offer was made it was in line with official nazi goal.


and buffalo the lehi aren't a red herring. the only reason you think that they are is you don't understand why I brought them up in the first place. But than again trying to understand anything has never been your primary motive. the reason I brought them up was to show a jewish group willing to deal with the nazis to show just because some one is willing to work with someone they don't have to believe the same thing or have a nefarious purpose. I mean the americans and british worked with stalin and certainly weren't pro communism. You work with what you can get not with what you wish you could get. This goes triple for groups like the lehi who require outside help to realistically obtain their goals.

As Bells is using Lehi, it is a Red Herring, as you have just pointed out, Stern and Lehi made the offer before the implementation of the Final Solution, and as I have pointed out Stern was killed in 1942, and Lehi disappeared until mid 1944, and Stern had nothing to do with the reconstituted Lehi.

The reconstituted Lehi never even tried to make contact with the Nazis, because at that time they were well aware of the Holocaust against the Jews in Germany.

What Bell's is trying to do is connect the two different Lehi organizations as one cohesive group, and that is not true or a historical fact.

So yes, as Bell's is trying to use Lehi, it is nothing but a Red Herring, and not germane to the debate.

 

[Buffalo Roam]

I am more concerned that the humanitarian aid be restored than with a cease fire. UN officials have indicated that they need about a 100 trucks a day to meet the need. Reopening the pipeline to the power station would also alleviate a lot of inconvenience and keep the hospitals functioning.

http://www.thenational.ae/article/20090101/FOREIGN/796934994/1001/OPINION

Hamas refuses ceasefire, senior leader killed in air strike

Last Updated: January 01. 2009 11:25PM UAE / January 1. 2009 7:25PM GMT

GAZA CITY // A top Hamas official today denied saying the group had conditionally accepted an EU truce proposal for Gaza violence, saying a bogus statement had been published on the main Hamas website---------------------------
Since the day after the start of its offensive on Saturday, Israel has allowed about 100 truckloads of humanitarian aid to pass into Gaza.

It is Hamas who is making the choice.