News from Gaza Part 2

[aaa]

Hamas must be destroyed in order to obtain peace in the region and that can only be achieved by continiously striking their militias in Gaza.

 

[iceaura]

If Hamas is destroyed, meaning the elected government of Palestine has been removed by force, what will replace it?

Israel seems to be bent on making things worse, year by year.

 

[Zakariya04]

obviously this cycle of violence and delusions will not make anything better to help the normal folk

We are talking about delusions and violence on both sides....

all it shows to me is that the leadership on both sides are very weak and cowardly etc...

the bravdo and bullshit is histerical and would make me laugh very loud if it wasnt for the innocents being killed..

people will never learn!!

 

[Bells]

quote me then. i dare you. i double dare you.

Never ever dare..

I'd suggest you read back into your own posting history before attempting to deny anything.

really? other then a single paper that says nothing, and lots of anti jewish and israelis links on the web?

you are not an israeli, you never met a lehi activist. this guys gave their lives for future generations-they even wrote a song about their sacrifice. you have me believe they wanted to cooperate with the nazis against the jews in europe?

http://www.sciforums.com/showpost.php?p=1784927&postcount=279

The guys you are touting as heros were actually terrorists. They targeted the UN (their assassination of the UN mediator, Folke Bernadotte) as well as British personnel, including a British Lord. They also attacked and murdered Palestinian Arabs. There is a reason why they disbanded immediately upon Israel's passing of their anti-terrorist laws and why the newly formed Israeli Government actually banned their organisation. I'll give you a hint, it was not because they were a peace loving group. It is because they were terrorists and would be deemed as such if they carried out similar attacks today. So your comments about their being some kind of heros who even wrote a song about their killings, is, in this light, stupidly ironic. People who send bombs by mail are terrorists, and the Lehi took part in that kind of action as well as assassinations and bombing infrastructure. And you refer to them as "activists" and then have the nerve to deny you even made the comment?

You know how they say your freedom fighters are someone else's terrorists? Funny that huh?

As for their Nazi connection. They did try to help the Nazi.. they wanted to work with the Nazi's to get the British out of Palestine while they helped the Nazi's in expelling the Jews from Europe... In short, they wanted to work with the Nazi's in removing and defeating the British in the Middle East and wanted to help the Nazi's win the war against the UK to accomplish that goal, and in return, they would help the Nazi's by removing the Jews.. so they basically wanted the Nazi's to help them establish a Jewish State while they helped the Nazi's beat the British. It is kind of common knowledge Spock.

In 1940, Lehi proposed intervening in World War II on the side of Nazi Germany. It offered assistance in "evacuating"[vague] the Jews of Europe, in return for Germany's help in expelling Britain from Mandate Palestine. Late in 1940, Lehi representative Naftali Lubenchik was sent to Beirut where he met the German official Werner Otto von Hentig. Lubenchik told von Hentig that Lehi had not yet revealed its full power and that they were capable of organizing a whole range of anti-British operations.

On the assumption that the destruction of Britain was the Germans' top objective, the organization offered cooperation in the following terms: From the NMO side: full cooperation in sabotage, espionage and intelligence and up to wide military operations in the Middle East and in eastern Europe anywhere where the Irgun had Jewish cells, active and trained and in some places with weapons. From the German side, the following declarations and actions were demanded: (1) Full recognition of an independent Jewish state in Palestine/Eretz Israel (2) That the ability to emigrate to Palestine be conceded to all Jews, with no restriction of numbers, who, in leaving their homes in Europe, by their own will or because of government injunctions. For this purpose there was expressed a need to cancel any transfer plans of Jews to distant countries like Madagascar.

On January 11, 1941 a letter was sent from Vice Admiral Ralf von der Marwitz, the German Naval attaché in Ankara, depicting an offer to "actively take part in the war on Germany's side" in return for German support for "the establishment of the historic Jewish state on a national and totalitarian basis, bound by a treaty with the German Reich".[17][18] There are three possibilities as to how the offer reached the German Naval attaché in Ankara. One is that en route to Germany, von Hentig was delayed in Ankara and delivered his version of the offer orally to von der Marwitz and von der Marwitz wrote the letter using his words. The second is that Colombani (a general in French intelligence) invented the offer because of personal rivalry between himself and other Vichy officials: this rivalry is known from a paragraph in von der Marwitz' letter, "Colombani is of the opinion that his return to France is a consequence of co-operation of Conti with Minister Pierroton", or, third, that Colombani wanted the offer to fail: he had co-operated with the Mufti of Jerusalem in Lebanon in 1938-1939 and was also the one who took him in his car through Syria to the Iraqi border in 1939.

In any case, von der Marwitz delivered the offer, classified as secret, to the German Ambassador in Turkey and on January 21, 1941 it was sent to Berlin. There was never any response. Von Hentig would later say that he believed it was important to help the Jews establish a country. [19] [20]

(Source)

The letter can be found here.

So yeah.. never dare Spock. And never deny and then dare. It could come back and bite you on your backside.

 

[Zakariya04]

quote me then. i dare you. i double dare you.

hahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaahahahahahahahahahahhahahah

LOL


Oh SPocky, you havent met more Muslims have you?????

and you still havent clarified your position on that post have you spocky!!???

ok... i will give you the grace of answering bells first as it seems you ahve you work cut out... But perhapsyou could address those comments or will i have to wait.. Dont worry i can wait till the New Year!!!

 

[aaa]

If Hamas is destroyed, meaning the elected government of Palestine has been removed by force, what will replace it?

not only do they hold the Palestinian government they also control the police and the army forces in the strip. Hamas has armed militias walking around in the streets of Gaza, no party such as this is allowed to do so and still be participated in democratic elections. the worse is that the people themselves can't protest against the situation which it has brought them into. so in other words this isn't democracy anyway, what will replace it? anything else would be better I guess.

Israel seems to be bent on making things worse, year by year.

you mean Israel is forced to retaliate in return for the rockets launched towards its people? I agree.

 

[Zakariya04]

you mean Israel is forced to retaliate in return for the rockets launched towards its people? I agree.

how are the Israelis doing with acheiving their objectives (assuming to destroy hamas)???? I hope they are doing better than when they tried to destroy hezbollah in 2006...???!!!!!!!!????

This pointless cycle of violence will acheive nothing...

Unless of course their is a general election looming soon in israel!!!!

 

[Z7575]

Final human victims results, since savage attacks ...... "until now"

397 martyrs
2000 WOUNDED

 

[Bells]

you mean Israel is forced to retaliate in return for the rockets launched towards its people? I agree.

So retaliation is just, even when it is so grossly disproportionate? For example, if I shoot at you with a water gun, you would be justified in retaliating with a 1000 kilogram bomb? Okay then.

Israeli airstrikes have pounded the territory since Saturday in an effort to halt the firing of rockets into southern Israel, with more than 390 Palestinians killed, according to Palestinian medical sources. They said 1,900 people are wounded, including 400 women and children.

Israeli sources say four Israelis have been killed by Palestinian rocket fire.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/meast/12/31/gaza.israel/index.html
​

Lets see.. Rockets kill 4 Israelis and in return, they kill over 390 Palestinians and injure 1,900, including 400 women and children.. I don't know about you, but to me that seems like a ridiculous and disproportionate response in retaliation.

No one is saying that the firing of rockets into Israel is justified. But Israel's response has been horrendously disproportionate, resulting the extreme suffering to the Palestinian civilians. They have no water, no electricity and they are running out of food.

not only do they hold the Palestinian government they also control the police and the army forces in the strip. Hamas has armed militias walking around in the streets of Gaza, no party such as this is allowed to do so and still be participated in democratic elections. the worse is that the people themselves can't protest against the situation which it has brought them into. so in other words this isn't democracy anyway, what will replace it? anything else would be better I guess.

So Israel's way to 'help' the Palestinian people against what you are describing as a despotic Government is to bomb the living hell out of them? Do you think the Palestinian people, who are fearing for their lives as bombs drop in and around their homes, schools, streets, etc from the air, who are suffering due to having no water or electricity and a dwindling food supply, are going to be thankful to the Israelis? Would you be? I know I wouldn't be. The lesser of the two evils for them at the moment is Hamas. So who do you think they consider the enemy?

 

[iceaura]

you mean Israel is forced to retaliate in return for the rockets launched towards its people? I agree.

And Hamas is forced to retaliate in return for the blockades of its territory - an act of war.

Israel's blockades have killed far more people than Hamas's rockets have - not to mention the misery inflicted on the rest - disease, malnutrition, medical neglect, etc.

So who started this? Not Hamas - they just got elected a few months ago. Israel has been blockading the Palestinians off and on for years now. They have also been shelling and bombing in civilian areas, sending in soldiers at will, and constructing walls and fencing that encroach on Palestinian territory.

That would start a war with almost anyone.

If you like irony, a mere partial blockade started a war with Egypt that was the impetus for the Israeli occupation of Gaza in the first place, forty years ago:

- - - This is from the official Knesset history of the Six Day War:

"Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser blockaded the Straits of Tiran on May 21st and 22nd to all shipping from and to Eilat; the area was open to Israeli ships under UN supervision since 1957, and Israel repeatedly stated that such a blockade will be considered as casus belli (justification for acts of war)."

Of course, there are many differences between the two situations. Just for instance: (1) Israel could still receive shipments by water via the Mediterranean, and (2) Israelis are human beings, - - -

 

[aaa]

how are the Israelis doing with acheiving their objectives (assuming to destroy hamas)???? I hope they are doing better than when they tried to destroy hezbollah in 2006...???!!!!!!!!????

This pointless cycle of violence will acheive nothing...

this isn't the same situation. Hamas isn't Hizballah, it is much weaker and striking its armed forces is more availabe for the IDF. all Israel has to do is to keep up the pressure on military objectives basis and eventually Hamas will fall apart. even now they are crying for a cease fire.

Unless of course their is a general election looming soon in israel!!!!

yes the elections are coming soon, hence the need to launch the operation now.

 

[Zakariya04]

this isn't the same situation. Hamas isn't Hizballah, it is much weaker and striking its armed forces is more availabe for the IDF. all Israel has to do is to keep up the pressure on military objectives basis and eventually Hamas will fall apart. even now they are crying for a cease fire.
.

hUMMMMM..... Just like Hezbollah was going to be destoryed!!!

yes they are diffferent in appearance, firepower etc etc, but israel seems to be trying the same failed tactics they tried on hezbollah!! The thing is as you say Hamas is much wweaker which really tells you something doiesnt it about this tacttic , espicailly considering Hezbollahs weapons arsenal was hardly state of the art either unlike Israels US funded war machine!!!

yes the elections are coming soon, hence the need to launch the operation now.

please elaborate

 

[otheadp]

Final human victims results, since savage attacks ...... "until now"

397 martyrs
2000 WOUNDED

If those 397 (less the kids) are martyrs, then your allah is satan himself. When will you face it, allah is on IDF's side. He directs Israeli missiles straight at your satanist HAMAS' heads, and punishes those who do not remove children from HAMAS' vicinity. I mean, if you're going to use allah so cynically with your religious contemptible rhetoric, it's only fair I could do the same.

 

[aaa]

And Hamas is forced to retaliate in return for the blockades of its territory - an act of war.

yes it is. but would you consider comitting suicide bombings inside Israeli cities as an act of war? I'm sure that as a sane person you would, meaning that Hamas declared war on Israel long before this whole operation got loose.

Israel's blockades have killed far more people than Hamas's rockets have - not to mention the misery inflicted on the rest - disease, malnutrition, medical neglect, etc.

and by that Hamas shoots its own foot. it simply doesn't care if its own people starve to death, as long as they can keep their twisted agendas.
why would there be an ambargo unless Hamas wants to launch terror operations against Israelis? I mean, the blockades exist because they are needed for the security of the Israeli civillians. Hamas doesn't even recognise
Israel's right to exist.

So who started this? Not Hamas - they just got elected a few months ago.

suicide bombings, shooting innocent civillians, hijacking, this is some of the things these guys are doing since the '90s.

Israel has been blockading the Palestinians off and on for years now. They have also been shelling and bombing in civilian areas, sending in soldiers at will, and constructing walls and fencing that encroach on Palestinian territory.

hummm... perhaps its because of the intifada the Palestinians have started in oct' 2000? or maybe its because of the suicide bombings in the '90s? or the first intifada in the '80s? and so on..

That would start a war with almost anyone.

I'm sure it would.

If you like irony, a mere partial blockade started a war with Egypt that was the impetus for the Israeli occupation of Gaza in the first place, forty years ago:

that's not ironic. this is true but it was a different situation back then. other reasons for starting the 1967 war was due to constant Syrian artillary on daily basis towards Israeli civillians, like those Qassam rockets - have you heard of them?

 

[Z7575]

If those 397 (less the kids) are martyrs, then your allah is satan himself. When will you face it, allah is on IDF's side. He directs Israeli missiles straight at your satanist HAMAS' heads, and punishes those who do not remove children from HAMAS' vicinity. I mean, if you're going to use allah so cynically with your religious contemptible rhetoric, it's only fair I could do the same.

Between me and u, do u 'ever' be educated ....
what is your instructional level ?
cus as i see, u didn't added anything to the discussion at all, by any of your posts in this thread, so stop ur illogical speech and give me some facts ....

BTW r u mercenary or just IDF fu..... member !

 

[aaa]

hUMMMMM..... Just like Hezbollah was going to be destoryed!!!

Israeli hands were tied. a cease fire has been forced on the Israeli government, the pressure made by the international community had Israel to withdraw all of its forces from south Lebanon.
this time, because of the rockets that are being fired every day towards Israeli cities for years now, Israel has the support for it. Hamas, on the other hand, wears the image of the aggressor even though it is weaker.

yes they are diffferent in appearance, firepower etc etc, but israel seems to be trying the same failed tactics they tried on hezbollah!!

Hamas copied the 'Hizballah model' into Gaza, which has been used against the IDF in south Lebanon; bunkers, tunnels, mine fields, IEDs, rocket launchers, etc - Hamas has learned a lot since July 2006. that is why Israel is using only its airforce for now and not ground troops.

The thing is as you say Hamas is much wweaker which really tells you something doiesnt it about this tacttic , espicailly considering Hezbollahs weapons arsenal was hardly state of the art either unlike Israels US funded war machine!!!

humm what are you trying to say by this, that Israel is much more stronger? yes, that's a well known fact.

please elaborate

its simple. Israel can't mix military decisions with politics.

 

[iceaura]

yes it is. but would you consider comitting suicide bombings inside Israeli cities as an act of war? I'm sure that as a sane person you would, meaning that Hamas declared war on Israel long before this whole operation got loose.

You can walk this back to WWII if you want to - and you'll find Israeli killing of civilians disproportionate to Israeli civilians getting killed from day one.

The founding of Israel was an aggressive act, supported by terrorism and creating a heavily militarized and aggressive State.

The sensible place to start is after the latest ceasefire - which Israel never kept, being in violation on the first day and increasing its violations thereafter. So we say this latest round was started by Israel.

The blockades, checkpoints, etc, have been in place since before Hamas existed. They are acts of war, and the rocketing of Israel has been a relatively mild response. Hamas lacks the means to do worse, or they probably would - with complete justification. Worse - much worse - has been done to them.

 

[aaa]

You can walk this back to WWII if you want to - and you'll find Israeli killing of civilians disproportionate to Israeli civilians getting killed from day one.

I disagree, but lets ignore this one for the sake of the discussion.

The founding of Israel was an aggressive act, supported by terrorism and creating a heavily militarized and aggressive State.

correct me if I'm wrong, but I think almost if not ALL nations and their countries were founded by
wars and violence.
not that I support such action, but I'm truely sorry to inform you that this is the way humans gain territory, or at least used to. anyway, Israel isn't a special case, so you can give up on this point.

The sensible place to start is after the latest ceasefire - which Israel never kept, being in violation on the first day and increasing its violations thereafter. So we say this latest round was started by Israel.

during the so called "cease fire", there were still rocket launching by the Palestinians, how come Israel is the first in the violation?

The blockades, checkpoints, etc, have been in place since before Hamas existed. They are acts of war,

they are an act of war because of Israel's war on terrorism since day 1.
you must understand that Hamas is not the first terror organization nor does it the only terror oganization with the purpose of destroyng the state of Israel.

and the rocketing of Israel has been a relatively mild response. Hamas lacks the means to do worse, or they probably would - with complete justification. Worse - much worse - has been done to them.

so what's your plan?

 

[desi]

I disagree, but lets ignore this one for the sake of the discussion.


correct me if I'm wrong, but I think almost if not ALL nations and their countries were founded by
wars and violence.
not that I support such action, but I'm truely sorry to inform you that this is the way humans gain territory, or at least used to. anyway, Israel isn't a special case, so you can give up on this point.


during the so called "cease fire", there were still rocket launching by the Palestinians, how come Israel is the first in the violation?


they are an act of war because of Israel's war on terrorism since day 1.
you must understand that Hamas is not the first terror organization nor does it the only terror oganization with the purpose of destroyng the state of Israel.


so what's your plan?

Israel kicked out the English by using terrorism on them. You live by the sword you die by the sword.

The reason the Palestinians are using rocks, rockets, and suicide bombs is because that is all they have for weapons. They have a crummy standard of living compared to the Israelis and in large part because of the Israelis taking all the choice growing land and most of the potable water supplies in the area. It would be like if China took over America and moved all the Americans to the Mojave Desert, Utah, and Wyoming and said 'Why don't you be content and do something constructive with your freedom?' I think you know many Americans would not stand for that anymore than the Palestinians do.

Any workable plan has to include sharing water supplies and good growing land with the Palestinians. You have to give them something worth behaving for.

 

[Huwy]

If those 397 (less the kids) are martyrs, then your allah is satan himself. When will you face it, allah is on IDF's side. He directs Israeli missiles straight at your satanist HAMAS' heads, and punishes those who do not remove children from HAMAS' vicinity. I mean, if you're going to use allah so cynically with your religious contemptible rhetoric, it's only fair I could do the same.

How many examples are there of atrocities committed against your people where your chosen deity failed to intervene?